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    1. Top | #21
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Spin.

      Is a weapon. Heavy spin. Is your friend.

      It wins points or sets up your partner to crush kill a high ball.

      Isnt it great feeling when you crush a winner?

      I simply love it when I set my partner up to kill a ball. I will roll up his sleeve and give him a push or bicep bump. Glory to my partner. Makes me feel better than if I killed a ball.I expect to win points on my offensive chances.

      If I can get my partner a share of the action it is a combat multiplier and confidence booster. Players ought to play with confidence.

      Making heavy spin from a long under spin is one of the easiest shots there is.

      Praise my partner for finishing the balls blocked high or damn him if he declines a chance to open heavy.

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    3. Top | #22
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Placement.

      In doubles, not everything needs to be rip-killed like u r Harimoto on steroid rage Rambo...

      Place the ball back where it came from... where opponent partner isnt...

      Place ball to make opponent move.

      Use less power to finish where opponent isnt.

      Soft block it sometime to draw in opponent.

      Touch it back short far side.

      Block ball medium to where opponent isnt.

      Find opponents middle.

      Give it half long to force opponent into a slow attack your partner can easily block for pressure or counter.

      Give ball to where opponent wants to attack, but will attack inconsistent and peeductable.

      Placement is a form of quality.

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      chuckjordan2 (11-30-2018)

    5. Top | #23
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      There are a few things that some players who do not understand or do well in doubles that set me off worse than a firecracker.

      Serving.

      Ideally, 80 percent of serves ought to be short under spin or dead very low and stay between center of court to center line. This minimizes possible flip angles, makes it tough to flip, and gives partner a ball to attack or place short or deep.

      Server needs to be able to make it heavy when they want... there is no variation to fool anyone if their best under spin serve is weak.

      Some players simply kill me by failing to keep ball short or low. Many think it is a great idea to serve ball going past sideline... that gets killed at wide angle no chance.

      Players who have depth or placement variation in singles can get away with a weak spin serve, but weak spin suck in serving for doubles if it is always weak. A good receiver loves a weak ball high at any depth. There is little fooling on short placement as there is half the court to work with and pretty much fixed serve position...

      That is why it is important to mostly serve low and tight towards center line. That is a tough ball to attack and when you add variation of spin, even a safe receive is an error or chance to attack. Then, when you do make a quick deep serve near end line, those serves are a surprise and get points or setups.

      A partner should not be pushing away points or opportunity for advantage on serve. Partners who do not serve effectively are a severe liability to the team.

      It doesn't take much to learn a medium under spin serve low and tight and learn a low and tight light sound or dead ball... but you will be surprised at the number of 2000 level singles heros who cannot serve effectively in doubles to save their life.

      As a very offensive minded player, I should get a minimum of 5 attacking chances per game from my partner on his serve... he will serve an average of 8 times or more. if I only get 1 or 2 or zero chances to attack per game and am always under attack from 2nd ball, my partner gunna hear it from me as I choke him out.

      I have 1600 level players who can serve right half the time and not give away points who can place the ball if they dont attack... this kind of player functions 10x better in doubles than 2000+ level singles superstars.

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      I agree on the whole but there are other ways to vary. I like to add just the right amount of sidespin to make it awkward for the opponent to judge : wide armed gesture suggests strong sidespin and they get ready for a strong flip, but it's still mostly underspin (low, slow and in for a second bounce, as you said this is crucial) so that a lot of players halt half way for a split second, then they either still go for a weak/out of coordination flip which often finds the net, or else a long or high push that's easy to attack for your team-mate.

      Depending on the receiver, even low and short tomahawk serves can be deadly.
      And then, yes, long or wide serves can be a weapon. There's tons of different styles on the receiving end of the table, and if your team-mate is a teenager quick on his feet they may prefer open play (depending on the type of opposition). But we can all agree with the bottom of what you are saying, which is, don't do things randomly - there's your partner who is going to receive the next shot.

      Even on the mental side, you have to think as a team, not weigh down the atmosphere for half a set because you missed a serve. When you see, at all levels, pairs of players who play as if they'd give their skins for each other, the coordination, general alchemy and success go up the roof right away. You can't just plan for every move, but at some point you start to think, play and... feel as a single unit - always aware of where your partner is - and it becomes intuitive what the scenario for this or that point should turn into, as if you were planning as one. Sounds like I am going metaphysical, but ask the Karlssons (Falck) about it, or when Xu Xin played with Yang Haeun. Of course, it takes practice and competitive games as well and I am not saying it is possible with every partner. Just don't only think about your woolly self.

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    7. Top | #24
      chuckjordan2 is offline
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      Dang der_echte!! I copied your stuff for my notes. Notes to study on my doubles game playbook!!!!
      Thank you! Can't pound the like hard enough......
      Chuck

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      Der_Echte (11-30-2018),ttmonster (11-30-2018)

    9. Top | #25
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Of course there are many ways to make variation... pretty much unlimited number.

      The base of variation is the ability to give an extreme range of spin (talking about just spin variation). If a player's under spin serve is not heavy, then when a player serves a light spin, there isnt a lot of difference and the variation is not effective.

      Spin variation must have a similar motion and look of impact to sell it. That is how a good player can really trouble someone with serves that are not severely different in spin.

      It is important on serve in doubles to minimize risk and setup partner... or at least to control receivers options or at a minimum not put partner under immediate attack.

      Serving short and tight as the majority base serve achieves this.

      Players who serve long too often or serve off side line often (even worse than serving long - partner has to deal with wide angle now under pressure) these players play right into hands of opponent... Advanced players punish poor serves or at a minimum receive poor serves to take away the servers advantage.

      Almost nothing in doubles pisses me smooth off more than a partner who continually pisses away the initiative and gives opponent upper hand too easily... because they are to poorly trained or undisciplined to play sound tt.

      It is too easy to serve effectively in doubles. It is the only shot where one can control the shot totally how one likes... yet you see star singles players fail to serve effectively for doubles.

      Players who cannot control their serve in doubles to limit receivers options or fail to set partner up to attack 3rd ball or put partner under strong attack 2nd ball immediately give away points and any advantage... such players are a huge liability to your doubles team... and make it damn near impossible to make up for that in the other areas.

      Sure, we have to take risks sometimes and not serve everything short... but the risk is very low if the base serve is low tight and the non short serves are sudden and well sold... such a case makes your chances better, especially if return is predictable.

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    11. Top | #26
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by chuckjordan2 View Post
      Dang der_echte!! I copied your stuff for my notes. Notes to study on my doubles game playbook!!!!
      Thank you! Can't pound the like hard enough......
      Chuck
      Put Der_Echte in the Dog Pound...



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      Last edited by Der_Echte; 11-30-2018 at 06:13 PM.

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    13. Top | #27
      chuckjordan2 is offline
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      Der_Echte you are on a roll. Get outta dis man's way as he bulldoozes past!

      A NY Times best seller.....

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    15. Top | #28
      Der_Echte is offline
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      As much as it sounds like I detest pushing, a certain partner I have pushes very well and blocks well... so sometimes we play nearly entire game pushing the underspins and laughing at the misses or block the slow spin attack.

      Again, it is about quality, risk assessment and playing a sound shot for the situation.

      None of us are pros and land every shot. We both understand that and make allowances.

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    17. Top | #29
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      well sold to the people who haven't been at the other end of Der_Echte's wrath ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post

      None of us are pros and land every shot. We both understand that and make allowances.

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      Lets go Spinny Looping !

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    19. Top | #30
      Der_Echte is offline
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      I am more inclined to allow ttmonster to serve long/deep more often than the arbitrary 20%... ttmonster gets results on his long serve at least half the time. Half the time they attack it, I can block it, and we win half of those too, so expected result of ttmonster serving long and us winning point is 62%+… that is good enough to have ttmonster use his judgment and feeling of confidence and still come out ahead over the course of a game and match.

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    21. Top | #31
      yogi_bear is online now
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      It is hell when your partner signals to make an underspin serve then out of nowhere he serves a sidespin ball or vice versa. Hahahah

    22. Top | #32
      ttmonster is online now
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      Completely agree .. I was going to say this but did not want to get an argument ... to me , unless your partner is a regular partner it makes no sense to serve any kind of sides spin .. it just makes too difficult for him to adjust and the point is why make it complicated unless you are fairly confident that you are going to win the point directly off the serve .... so I always keep my sidespin serves in the pocket and take them out when absolutely necessary ...

      My stock serving strategy in doubles :

      if the opponent is right handed and is returning with forehand, short underspin / no spin as close to the T as possible. Now I might be out of practice and not able to execute it but that is the plan


      there are very few opponents at your level who can handle these , the best the can do is to push short and when you sell them the no spin .. they starting giving your partner easy loopable long balls ...

      if the opponent is left handed and is returning with forehand , short / half long underspin / no spin across the table where the second bounce is close to the side line ...

      the strategy would be different if somebody is returning with BH .. then the game becomes a little unorthdox ... ( btw this is what Der_Echte does and his backhand over the table is sick ) .. in that case you have to keep the returner guessing .. and depends on what the returner is good at .. this is the one situation where I prefer to bring out my long side under or side top .. that too down the T ... you would also serve short / long reverse pendulum that goes off the side line and basically handcufs .. but you have to keep the returner guessing ...


      Enough said !




      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      It is hell when your partner signals to make an underspin serve then out of nowhere he serves a sidespin ball or vice versa. Hahahah
      Last edited by ttmonster; 12-01-2018 at 04:12 AM.

    23. Top | #33
      phorkyas is offline
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      Regarding the signs for serving my training partner suggested that the non-server requests what should be served to get the 3rd ball she/he wants. (Think I saw that in some professional matches, but mostly server give the signs) - works pretty well for us.

      Would be interested if signs are kinda universal, we use:
      Index finger pointing downwards : under spin
      Fist : no spin, empty ball
      Thumb upwards : topspin



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    24. Top | #34
      chuckjordan2 is offline
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      Yup, mostly universal signals

    25. Top | #35
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      Of course there are many ways to make variation... pretty much unlimited number.

      The base of variation is the ability to give an extreme range of spin (talking about just spin variation). If a player's under spin serve is not heavy, then when a player serves a light spin, there isnt a lot of difference and the variation is not effective.

      Spin variation must have a similar motion and look of impact to sell it. That is how a good player can really trouble someone with serves that are not severely different in spin.

      It is important on serve in doubles to minimize risk and setup partner... or at least to control receivers options or at a minimum not put partner under immediate attack.

      Serving short and tight as the majority base serve achieves this.

      Players who serve long too often or serve off side line often (even worse than serving long - partner has to deal with wide angle now under pressure) these players play right into hands of opponent... Advanced players punish poor serves or at a minimum receive poor serves to take away the servers advantage.

      Almost nothing in doubles pisses me smooth off more than a partner who continually pisses away the initiative and gives opponent upper hand too easily... because they are to poorly trained or undisciplined to play sound tt.

      It is too easy to serve effectively in doubles. It is the only shot where one can control the shot totally how one likes... yet you see star singles players fail to serve effectively for doubles.

      Players who cannot control their serve in doubles to limit receivers options or fail to set partner up to attack 3rd ball or put partner under strong attack 2nd ball immediately give away points and any advantage... such players are a huge liability to your doubles team... and make it damn near impossible to make up for that in the other areas.

      Sure, we have to take risks sometimes and not serve everything short... but the risk is very low if the base serve is low tight and the non short serves are sudden and well sold... such a case makes your chances better, especially if return is predictable.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
      Yes, this is a very good post. We should have this kind of threads more often, and compile the results more effectively.
      Not meaning to take any work off Dan's academy!
      Last edited by Ioiettino; 12-02-2018 at 10:48 AM.

    26. Top | #36
      mai tran is offline
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      mai trần xin chào mọi người

    27. Top | #37
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      Learn to place the ball short but wide and also learn hiw to loop very wide ball placements.

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