Joola bought Joola

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Joola is pretty well known in the UK, France, Belgium but is biggest in Germany I assume.

It seems Butterfly is biggest everywhere except maybe France where I hear Tibhar are slightly bigger.

It's a shame as Joola have good equipment, like the ESN rubbers and the Rossi Emotion etc. Also very big in the tables market.

Germany is the biggest market in Europe

do you think Joola is top 3 or top 5?
I would say these 4 (in any particular order) should be bigger than Joola in its own home country.
1) Butterfly
2) Stiga
3) Donic
4) Tibhar

Then Joola is likely fighting with Andro, Gewo, Xiom, Yasaka, other Japanese brands, DHS (blades) for 5th position.
I wonder if Joola even has double digit percentage market share in its own country.

At the end of the day, market share is based on blades and rubbers, not clothing, balls or tables.
I agree Joola has good table, I own one myself.
 
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I always thought it was a US brand because of the Atlanta Olympics, and indeed, they have a strong presence in the US. Who would've thought 2 decades later...

atlanta_1996_joola.jpg
 
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It seems Butterfly is biggest everywhere except maybe France where I hear Tibhar are slightly bigger.
That is correct and I would actually say it is not even close, Tibhar are everywhere (IV-L, IV-S, Chila, etc.) and Butterfly not all that present at club level. Another specificity is Banco, which is owned by no1 TT reseller Wack Sport and sells a pretty big variety of OEM blades and mostly ESN rubbers (typically good quality but copycat articles from Tibhar and others, selling for a bit less). Back in my first period of serious TT play - late nineties to 2005, I could only judge as a teenager but I actually think they were the top brand, at least with the younger generation.

These days (with the resellers' market more fragmented, and more info available on "foreign" brands) I could see Tibhar ahead, with Donic, Banco, Butterfly and Andro making up the rest of the top 5, but not sure in which order (it depends too much on the club and region, due to local snowballing effects). I wouldn't be surprised to see Andro in the top two one day, while the Butterfly marketing machine seems to have bypassed the country entirely. Nittaku selling a sheepload of Fastarc and feeling hip, Xiom onto it since the Vega, Victas spreading through their 4 series rubbers, Stiga not investing much but cruising on the name alone, Yasaka being Yasaka... Even DHS are making a late break, and TSP can claim a few fan favourites (Curl, Ventus Spin, Swat...).


About Joola... People know them for sure, and they are somewhere in the chasing pack. But if they ever reached the top five it was long ago, and I can't see how they'd come back with the current marketing strategy. They can't compete with the majors in terms of image and probably aimed too much at youth, but they also lack the cool factor of newer brands. Pickle.
 
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I wonder if Tibhar are possibly also bigger than Butterfly in Germany then if they are so dominant in France. Interesting about the IV-S, IV-L blades, they are not popular at all elsewhere, just France as far as I can tell. Maybe Belgium!

I doubt that
For Tibhar to big number one, they need atleast 30-40% market share,
Its a pity these stats are not something one can get they hands on
 
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Well, you can get a rough idea even without being in the loop.
 
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Well, you can get a rough idea even without being in the loop.

How so? At some clubs I see a lot of Donic. Or Tibhar. Or Joola. Or Stiga. It seems to be a local preference that varies wildly, and I couldn’t concoct an overall picture.

Except for one thing. Suddenly many people playing with Rasanter a while ago, and to me it seems many that did step away from it. Rage characteristics.
 
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Seeing in few clubs can't be a rough idea, unless you have traveled to 30000 clubs in Germany and seen everything.
In many industries there are agencies that monitor statistics

in table tennis, one can get number of registered players or a rough number
but then will these players change rubbers annual, monthly etc - how would one even factor in a percentage
this is only rubbers,
then blades....

Zeio, please tell me how to get the stats
i'm the number 1 in South Africa, and I being very in the loop can't even be certain to stat a close guesstimate
 
Seeing in few clubs can't be a rough idea, unless you have traveled to 30000 clubs in Germany and seen everything.
In many industries there are agencies that monitor statistics

in table tennis, one can get number of registered players or a rough number
but then will these players change rubbers annual, monthly etc - how would one even factor in a percentage
this is only rubbers,
then blades....

Zeio, please tell me how to get the stats
i'm the number 1 in South Africa, and I being very in the loop can't even be certain to stat a close guesstimate

Though you are a great authority, I can't agree.
One can not travel to 30000 clubs for less than 100 years, and you know that.
The rest is a matter of marketing, advertising and strategical sponsorship.
The shortest phrase - Nothing is Real.
 
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I understand the doubts in the previous posts, and yes I would advise to take what I said about the present situation with a pinch of salt: I don't work in the business.


There are two things to know about the French market, however.


For one, it is pretty conservative and, as an example, the number of carbon blades is low when compared to the rest of the world. Main sources being this and a couple other forums, tt11. com charts and playing regularly in Scotland in two places (plus a few opens around the country), and a few times in Prague. Celluloid balls are still used in some places in France, although back where I am from (in the country) this this sometimes due to the OG eco-mindful spirit - they're there and they are too good to be thrown away, so that you'd even use the half-worn ones and keep the new ones stashed away. It is not just what I see in real life, as there's also a very popular forum that's the central online meeting place (no doubt this can be discredited too, but then why are we even here?). Much bigger than TTD in terms of active users. I know, endless streak of anecdotes and all that... Maybe Takkyu and Thomas can chime in as well, as they have both played abroad for a long time.


Second point is, Wack Sport. Some things have changed with the online resellers coming in, but they used to have nigh on monopoly over the market in the period I described, with Dauphin a very far second (as the name suggests! Sorry, it's a French joke..). Wack use their own equipment rating system, which has been discredited many times but still is the norm for a large number of players. 45 degree sponge is a fairly recent thing, back not so long ago you would ask what the Wack speed rating was and guess what, the best combinations of speed and control ratings were always for Tibhar and Banco (always assumed there was a partnership between the two) ahead even of Butterfly products which looked fast but uncontrollable, not to mention expensive. They also always had very good pre-assembled bats with top of the line equipment from both these brands, almost exclusively. Banco Black Light was a killer on paper, and still is commonly found. I know it is easy to laugh, but you have to remember how things were before the Internet ("right, I'm placing an order - no need to say with whom - so we'll share the costs, who needs new rubbers? Here's the catalogue").

For some reason, when Butterfly narrowed distribution to a single reseller they decided to go with Dauphin who, regardless of the boost, never had the most exciting catalogue and are nearly unheard of for many players (more anecdotes..). With the arrival of tt11.fr (very active on the French forum throughout the years, and a popular boutique in Paris, but no access to Butterfly and pushing the jump forward from the old guard to Xiom, Nittaku et al. right over Joola's head, except for the Rosskopf Emotion), Misterping and others, again Butterfly are not at the front of the picture.
They probably have the most loyal following, I'll give you that.



Also, what I said about Joola's current marketing was a little unfair as they have definitely pushed a bit higher up the scale in the last few years (can't talk about the Rhyzers, which I haven't tried), even in terms of design and finishing. The TPE blades should be known better, and at that level of build the prices are fair. Golden Tango, which yogi mentioned, is giving me the itch as well (PS version for me!) and getting a lot of people interested in what is still a niche, at least for German brands.
 
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Well, why not take a look at the given facts.

In Germany there is the spoteo index, which lists up sport brands in general, but one can filter for tabletennis. The list i've found seems to be a few years old though.
http://www.spoteo.de/sport-firmen/sportarten/Tischtennis.html

The whole index list.
http://www.spoteo.de/marktplatz/firmen/spoteo-index.html


That being said, it's not about pure sales, but rather popularity like internet appearance, Google page lists, social media and a few more. This is how its done, to whom it may concern:
http://www.spoteo.de/markt_aktuell/...ltweit-einzigartigen-Sportmarken-Ranking.html

It's quite transparent, although it helps to be able to read and understand German.

But Butterfly had this chart in their catalogue to give one an idea, but it's also not about sales numbers, but rather material used by pro players at the wttc2017. I hope i'm allowed to post this.
Screenshot_20181130-010713_Chrome.jpg
 
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Yeah, I couldn't find this type of figures for France.

As yet another anecdote, this has all the elements of your typical national-team shirt for the last ages.

gauzyetliariogrundischenattente6.jpg


Oh and, the current Wack Sport best-sellers (should have found this earlier):
http://wsport.com/liens/10best_vente_ind.php
The list of rubbers would be unthinkable in most other countries!


Then I swear, I am done speaking about this country.
 
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Yeah, I couldn't find this type of figures for France.

As yet another anecdote, this has all the elements of your typical national-team shirt for the last ages.

View attachment 17952


Oh and, the current Wack Sport best-sellers (should have found this earlier):
http://wsport.com/liens/10best_vente_ind.php
The list of rubbers would be unthinkable in most other countries!


Then I swear, I am done speaking about this country.

I didn't know most of these rubbers were still for sale. Many of the blades are also not in catalogues elsewhere. France is a weird bastion of its own!

Tenergy by FAAAR everywhere else. Then MX-P. Then probably Vega Pro, G1, MX-S etc on down through ESN. Blades is like Butterfly Timo Boll ALC, Primorac, Korbel, Stiga classic ones, Tibhar Stratus Power Wood, Tibhar Force Pro Black edition, Yasaka Sweden Extra etc.
 
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Also, sorry for the long posts and sentences!!

Ioiettino,

You should feel free to post as long as you like as much as you like when you are expressing yourself on subject that need a long technical detailed explanation.

You or no one else needs Der_Echte's permission for anything in life... I am just supporting you and any others.

You may sincerely feel sorry or you are using good etiquette... No need to feel sorry, you are well justified.
 
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