Chinese Dominance

Lula · Dec 30, 2018

zeio said:
The comments about the Chinese playing the same and like machine are so hilarious(read ignorant). Please spare 10 mins of your attention on the following video about Archery.

I do not know if im ignorant, it is just mine personal opinion so i might be wrong. Maybe i need to watch even more games where they play to notice the difference. Never meant to offend anyone.

Do you think the difference in how they teach archery is a cultural thing? I have heard that Asians, or atleast the chinese play alot without ball, shadow play(is it called this in english?) to get the technique and form right. Not sure if this is correct, do not want to be ignorant again haha

I want to do alot of shadow play with my students in Sweden because i think it is a great way to learn the technique and the correct strokes. I feel that it is too difficult with the ball many times to get the correct strokes. And if they play with the ball and do the strokes wrong they learn to do the wrong technique, so it is very important to get the right technique from the beginning.

But i feel that my students have a hard time to take shadow play serious so it is difficult to do it with them. I think alot of swedish kids would have a problem with shadow play in tabletennis and to use the elastic band in archery.

Loopadoop · Dec 30, 2018

Shadow practice works, I have used it. Most people don't take it seriously.

Lula · Dec 30, 2018

Loopadoop said:
Shadow practice works, I have used it. Most people don't take it seriously.

I also think it works. Why do you think people do not take it seriously?

Loopadoop · Dec 30, 2018

They just can't relate to it. They do it for a short period of time and don't see any results so they quit.

mart1nandersson · Dec 30, 2018

You get the same with running drills (butt kicks, high knee skips) which most sports has picked up from athletics / track & field and have transformed it into some kind of useless warm up drill. These drills are exactly like shadow practise in TT and shouldn't be done if you're not doing the correct mechanical movements as you're then imprinting the wrong technique.

It's quite fun to ask a soccer/football/ice hockey/etc coach why they do running drills and they have absolutely not clue 99% of the time.

Tony's Table Tennis · Dec 30, 2018

BlipBlop575 said:
What do you guys think about China's dominance? Do you enjoy watching China destroy everyone at the big tournaments like they always do, or do you like to see other players upset chinese players? I personally think that it's better for the sport whenever someone else win a big tournament over chinese players because it's very rare to see that happen while seeing a chinese player win a title is nothing unexpected. Curious to hear your opinion on this topic.

lots of neutral parties will vote for underdogs. This is part of the excitement factor,
but then your analysis is just like Anti USA when comes to basketball, athletics, swimming?
anti Aus when comes to Cricket?
anti NZ when comes to Rugby?
anti Korean when comes to Archery?

there is a reason, why such countries are so good.
and I think it is unfair to put them at fault for getting 100% marks in the exam/championships

I am different to you, i see the sport, the points, the rallies
I don't care who they are or what country they are from.
I don't have a favorite player, I don't have a favorite team.

Sport is like arts, people who knows it will cherish and respect others "superior skills or talent"

BlipBlop575 · Dec 30, 2018

Tony's Table Tennis said:
lots of neutral parties will vote for underdogs. This is part of the excitement factor,
but then your analysis is just like Anti USA when comes to basketball, athletics, swimming?
anti Aus when comes to Cricket?
anti NZ when comes to Rugby?
anti Korean when comes to Archery?

there is a reason, why such countries are so good.
and I think it is unfair to put them at fault for getting 100% marks in the exam/championships

I am different to you, i see the sport, the points, the rallies
I don't care who they are or what country they are from.
I don't have a favorite player, I don't have a favorite team.

Sport is like arts, people who knows it will cherish and respect others "superior skills or talent"

I personally believe that in any sport, whether it's TT, Basketball, you name it, it's never good that there is one country that is dominating and everyone else is so far behind. It's very hard to promote the sport in other countries other than the dominant country when you don't have a type of "leader" or someone to be inspired by for the young players from these countries which means that they won't have the drive or that extra push to continue training hard to get better and better. So when you have someone like Harimoto for Japan, or Calderano for Brazil, whose results probably get widespread attention in their countries, it helps to promote the sport even further in there. I'm not anti any of the countries you mentioned. I simply think it would be better for everyone, including China, if the competition was more balanced in terms of the level of play. This is just my opinion. I respect your opinion as well.

Andyzhao123 · Dec 31, 2018

I honestly enjoy seeing China defend their titles year after year. However, I think it'll be more interesting if there were to be another team that will rival China like Sweeden in the 1980s. In my opinion, it'll be more interesting to see the answer to "Which country will take the title this year?", rather than "Do you think a huge upset will happen this year?". Without a doubt, if different countries were to be able to take some of the big titles (WTTC, WTTTC, World Cup, Olympics, etc), table tennis would become more popular in those countries. The sport is ever-changing, and I wouldn't be surprised if China's dominance reduces in the next generation.

Tony's Table Tennis · Dec 31, 2018

BlipBlop575 said:
I personally believe that in any sport, whether it's TT, Basketball, you name it, it's never good that there is one country that is dominating and everyone else is so far behind. It's very hard to promote the sport in other countries other than the dominant country when you don't have a type of "leader" or someone to be inspired by for the young players from these countries which means that they won't have the drive or that extra push to continue training hard to get better and better. So when you have someone like Harimoto for Japan, or Calderano for Brazil, whose results probably get widespread attention in their countries, it helps to promote the sport even further in there. I'm not anti any of the countries you mentioned. I simply think it would be better for everyone, including China, if the competition was more balanced in terms of the level of play. This is just my opinion. I respect your opinion as well.

That is true
but then the problems is not China, the problem is all your other countries.

Take Brazil for example, how much Calderano glory do you think actually helps Table Tennis in the greater picture in Brazil?
I don't think that much to be honest.

Japanese table tennis started with them making Ai Fukahara a celebrity status.
Asian TV has a lot of TV shows, and that helped promoted a 6 year old Ai to become a child celebrity.
Ai was more famous with her cuteness and being a big cry baby (again cute in the eyes of the audience)
Within no time, she had a huge fellowship, and that leads to marketing endorsements.
That also helped push the viewership to make TT the 3rd biggest in Japan (baseball, sumo I think is bigger) that stage.

There is a Calderano for Brazil
There is a Jha for America
Is Calderano or Jha the "leader" to make the changes required?
I think not.... I think you need a PR guru to spin it off.

The problem is that many countries investment (including fans investment to the sport) is below par.
Take your country for example, Romania.... if your citizens and government can give more into the sport, i'm sure Romania will be medalist in womens TT for sure.

You can't expect a close to 0 investment army to be able to win wars with the US army...
Same thing with your China in TT, USA in basketball, NZ in Rugby....

But you know what, I don't see these negative sentiments about NZ's dominance in Rugby, or USA in Basketball.
I think the world in general just has a more negative sentiment on Chinese domination in general (I see people complaining the Chinese are taking over the worlds etc). Maybe because the government itself isn't a good role model, but then, which government is.

Anyways, I am all in vote for other countries to wake up, step up, and compete.
Nothing wrong with having 10 Ma Longs from different countries.

yogi_bear · Dec 31, 2018

Tony, in your opinion, who are the favored players in CNT and are they justified being favorites of the coaches?

zeio · Jan 1, 2019

Lula said:
I do not know if im ignorant, it is just mine personal opinion so i might be wrong. Maybe i need to watch even more games where they play to notice the difference. Never meant to offend anyone.

Do you think the difference in how they teach archery is a cultural thing? I have heard that Asians, or atleast the chinese play alot without ball, shadow play(is it called this in english?) to get the technique and form right. Not sure if this is correct, do not want to be ignorant again haha

I want to do alot of shadow play with my students in Sweden because i think it is a great way to learn the technique and the correct strokes. I feel that it is too difficult with the ball many times to get the correct strokes. And if they play with the ball and do the strokes wrong they learn to do the wrong technique, so it is very important to get the right technique from the beginning.

But i feel that my students have a hard time to take shadow play serious so it is difficult to do it with them. I think alot of swedish kids would have a problem with shadow play in tabletennis and to use the elastic band in archery.

Waldner had this stereotypical view of China in his teens.

The one thing in common between China in Table Tennis and South Korea in Archery is the unwavering focus on fundamentals from a young age. Philosophy, values, culture, you name it, but laying a robust foundation is considered the most crucial factor that will determine the height you could reach later on, as mentioned by Zhang Chunming, ZJK's dad.

Part 2 delves into the state program of China, from a playerbase of 100 million to a national team made up of roughly a few tens. It follows a girl(yup, a girl) who recently got admitted into the Luneng table tennis club, largely in part because she is a penholder. It is mentioned the number of players sent by parents for training has been in decline across the country in recent years, especially girls. Her mom decided to send her in to try out for a year or two. In case she doesn't make it, she can just go back to school. Not the case for the second girl. Her dad wants her to become a World Champion. He even went the extra mile by quitting his job to train her. He was from Anshan but decided to take her to Luneng in fear of disapproval from the family. His wish is for her to raise the five-star flag. In case she doesn't, he has no regret as he has given his all. At the Luneng Tsingtao training base, getting chewed out is a daily routine. Zhang Chuanming, ZJK's dad, is a coach there. His current focus is on an eleven-year-old boy who is ahead of the curve in his age group. He can't stress enough on fundamentals, comparing it to the building block of a skyscraper. Machismo is his motto. After the commerical break, the focus turns to the harsh reality faced by their parents - natural selection. ZCM sums it up in one sentence - the 20-30 people on the national team is there only to serve the 3-4 elites. The last segment is on the humongous training camp in which the national B team is pitted against provincial players from across the country, where there is a chance for them to get promoted/demoted.

In the quest for the ideal form, South Korean coaches have come up with a set of rules. In the same manner, Chinese coaches also follow a set of principles.

1 教练及中国乒乓球队教练
1.1 教练员的意义及素质
乒乓球教练员跟所有运动项目的教练员一样，他在运动训练过程中所必须“生产”的有如下两大块内容：
运动员部分：该项目运动员＋先进技术＋技术组合＋技战术应用＋战略构想。
团队部分：该项目团队精神＋管理手段＋管理策略＋项目文化。

1 Coaches & CNT Coaches
1.1 The Meaning and Quality of Coaches
TT coaches, like all sports coaches, must "produce" 2 major pieces of content in the training process:
The players' part: players + advanced techniques + technical combination + technical and tactical application + strategic concept
The coaches' part: team spirit + management measures + management strategy + sports culture

https://www.1xuezhe.exuezhe.com/Qk/art/348199?dbcode=1&flag=2

Fig 1. Missions of the coaches on different levels
Grassroot coaches: demonstration of basic strokes
Provincial coaches: cultivation of techniques and tactics, initial display of player's style
National team coaches: maturation of player's character, in-depth technical and tactical development

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 1, 2019

One of the things I think with the subject is that, it is a bit problematic and odd that people look at the sport from the lens of National Team instead of players.

I like to see good play. When two players are competitive with each other, I like to watch. When one player is significantly better than the other, it is not as interesting to watch. I feel that is the case with lower levels as well as the top levels as long as the players in the match can play. So, even with decent club level players, if there is a match that is a good contest and you are not sure who is going to win for a decent amount of the match, it can be fun to watch.

But of course, when two of the best players in the world are playing against each other, and they are fighting toe to toe, that is quite often epic and poetic.

If you remove the idea of national teams and which country/team a player is from, the issue in this thread becomes much less of an issue. In Tennis they don't spend countless hours talking about which country a player comes from. The players that stand out, stand out. Their nationality may be mentioned on occasion. But it does not become a central focal point. Nobody is talking about how Serbia is so good regardless of how good Djokavic is.

This has to do with how table tennis is structured as a sport. But I just try to ignore it and like to watch good matches. When a match is an obvious blowout, which does happen a lot in TT, I am not sure it is worth watching.

Why are there so many blowouts at the top levels? Because TT is a game of levels. If you are one or two levels above someone you are playing, you can beat them easily and the win can look bad or ugly. And the players at the very top are really just fundamentally so much better than everyone else. They are trained right from a young age and have thousands of more hours of table time with good coaching and superb fundamentals. So, it makes sense they are better. But I don't really care what country they are playing for. I know. But I try and watch the play rather than watching the flag.

Dr Evil · Jan 1, 2019

I like the point about tt being a game of levels. Is the CNT approach the only way to reach the highest level? Will they stick exclusively to hard tacky forehand rubber if Harimoto wins a gold medal? Lots of interesting questions.

BlipBlop575 · Jan 1, 2019

Dr Evil said:
Will they stick exclusively to hard tacky forehand rubber if Harimoto wins a gold medal?

Now that you mention the Chinese rubber i wonder why the non Chinese players don't switch to it as well? I know some of the players from the Japanese women's team are using it but i'm not sure about the others.

phorkyas · Jan 1, 2019

I tried to learn Go for some time and there are some analogies, I think: The abysmal multitude of levels. From occasional player to pro level, it's like folded exponential scales, and once you level up you only get strong enough to realize you still know nothing about the game.

And in Go there's also this strong focus on the basics, maybe best exemplified by Toshiro Kegeyama's famous book, where one of the main points was that a pro is such a different animal because the very stupid fundamental techniques are so much more ingrained in him. Dunno, but makes sense to me that TT is very much alike.

Even more on the highest level. When I watched some of Harimoto's last victories it struck me, that he didn't win by all out attacking but often by mixing in pushes and great blocks. Sure his game has great overall aggressiveness, but it seemed his great variation using all the fundamental techniques made it hard for the opponents to anticipate what's coming next.

UpSideDownCarl said:
One of the things I think with the subject is that, it is a bit problematic and odd that people look at the sport from the lens of National Team instead of players.

I like to see good play. When two players are competitive with each other, I like to watch. When one player is significantly better than the other, it is not as interesting to watch. I feel that is the case with lower levels as well as the top levels as long as the players in the match can play. So, even with decent club level players, if there is a match that is a good contest and you are not sure who is going to win for a decent amount of the match, it can be fun to watch.

But of course, when two of the best players in the world are playing against each other, and they are fighting toe to toe, that is quite often epic and poetic.

If you remove the idea of national teams and which country/team a player is from, the issue in this thread becomes much less of an issue. In Tennis they don't spend countless hours talking about which country a player comes from. The players that stand out, stand out. Their nationality may be mentioned on occasion. But it does not become a central focal point. Nobody is talking about how Serbia is so good regardless of how good Djokavic is.

This has to do with how table tennis is structured as a sport. But I just try to ignore it and like to watch good matches. When a match is an obvious blowout, which does happen a lot in TT, I am not sure it is worth watching.

Why are there so many blowouts at the top levels? Because TT is a game of levels. If you are one or two levels above someone you are playing, you can beat them easily and the win can look bad or ugly. And the players at the very top are really just fundamentally so much better than everyone else. They are trained right from a young age and have thousands of more hours of table time with good coaching and superb fundamentals. So, it makes sense they are better. But I don't really care what country they are playing for. I know. But I try and watch the play rather than watching the flag.

Sent from my ZTE Grand S II LTE using Tapatalk

whocarez · Jan 1, 2019

Lula said:
I have No problem with that they win everything But i think they play a little boring. Feel like the chinese are machines that play almost the same. With the new ball the play is even more boring. It is alot of pang pang, alot of power and less Finesse. It is fun to see players that play different and not like all others. Diversity is good for the sport.

Exactly, this ^^. From the top of my head, I remember the 2017 women's final in Swedish Open (Zhu Yuling vs. Chen Xingtong) as extremely boring. However, Ding Ning was in the tournament and made somewhat up for it

If the semifinals in a tournament are already all Chinese, then I quite often do not bother watching the rest because it gets too much of the same. There are some exceptions though, I really like Xu Xin and Xu Ruifeng to name a couple. Just wish that Xu Xin was in form and Xu Ruifeng had more appearances internationally. Not sure what to think of FZD, besides that he occasionally delivers an incredible shot.

But then again I can't stand Dima Ovtcharov either

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 2, 2019

yogi_bear said:
Tony, in your opinion, who are the favored players in CNT and are they justified being favorites of the coaches?

Well, so much has changed with this coaches story, but I think it will go back to the same as before
each coach to have 1 main player, and then 1 or 2 "extra" player.
Some "extra" player will maybe be 3 to 5 per coach.

The focus on the main player is your WTTC/OG candidates
so ie, Ma Long, XX, FZD, LGY, LJK /DN, LSW, CM, ZYL, WMY for example.

This is why in those shared or leaked videos, you will see "extra/other" players always training with the main players.
You will also see when CNT tours world events, you get the A bunch then the B bunch.
You won't see so much A and B together.

for the politics part, as each coach will have a "main" players. The coach wish to do well inside the "work place', so there is also heavy competition among the coaches. The coaches player does well, the coach gets "promoted" etc

I have 2 balls · Jan 7, 2019

Hugo did a great job in beating down FZD haha. Guess the Chinese dominance is over now.

Suga D · Jan 7, 2019

I have 2 balls said:
Hugo did a great job in beating down FZD haha. Guess the Chinese dominance is over now.

one swallow doesn't make a summer

usualsuspect · Jan 7, 2019

Lula said:
I have No problem with that they win everything But i think they play a little boring. Feel like the chinese are machines that play almost the same. With the new ball the play is even more boring. It is alot of pang pang, alot of power and less Finesse. It is fun to see players that play different and not like all others. Diversity is good for the sport.

Agreed. The diversity in playstyle has gone down. But this is more of an issue due to switching to 40+ plastic balls.

And please don't say "chinese are machines that play almost the same". Whenever someone says this, I wince a little in pain. Saying this just shows you don't pay enough attention when watch their matches. Most Chinese players have their own distinct style. Somehow, many only notice Chinese players' somewhat standardized looping techniques and assume they all play the same.

To the OP, I love the fact that Harimoto won the grand final. I never thought it would happen, but it did and it was awesome. Calderano beating FZD was another great match.

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