Butterfly Innerforce series - whats the deal in compare to 5ply/7ply allwood blades?

iamsan · Dec 31, 2018

hey guys,

with the release of Xiom's icecream blades attention has drawn to this topic.
i'm curious about the IF series. while i do own several allwood limba blades: a slow 5 ply (Grubba), a fast 5 ply (Xiom Offensive S) and a 7 ply (Andro Core) i wonder which customer should instead buy these IF ALC or ZLC instead of the common all-wood-blades.

just one note: because i can generate a good level of speed and spin through technique (mostly due to previous usage of chinese forehand rubber and a relatively full motion stroke on backhand) i use the slowest available blade with the Grubba.

thx and happy new (TT) year

yogi_bear · Dec 31, 2018

The AZX is not for beginners for sure. It is for at least competitive trained players.

zeio · Jan 1, 2019

Go for a composite blade if you're looking a specific feature that cannot be provided by an all-wood blade. ALC for vibration damping. Innerfiber for all-wood-like touch at low impact yet composite-like power at high impact.

Lightzy · Jan 1, 2019

The idea is to have more stability in the shot (bat reaction made more predictable), make the sweet spot bigger and more stable and add more power to stronger shots while not going straight to 5th gear the moment you touch the ball.

iamsan · Jan 1, 2019

The for the reply.
I still ain't convinced with the arguments.
With my 7 ply allwood blade I also can play a great short game, it's damn fast and stiff while still very controllable. I guess I have to try out but 200 € way too much just to try out. Are there cheaper alternatives for that proposal?

JST · Jan 2, 2019

iamsan said:
I guess I have to try out but 200 € way too much just to try out. Are there cheaper alternatives for that proposal?

Yes indeed there are but not from Butterfly or Nittaku or similar well established EUR/JP brand, you need to go to Chinese brands like DHS, Sanwei, 729, Yinhe, Palio etc. I actually did the same journey as you proposed last summer to come back to 5 and 7-ply all wood blades for the season, Was it worth it? It was for me. Here are some tips (but Zeio, Yogi, Lightzy and others will add many more):

DHS Hurricate 301: Koto-Ayous-ALC-Ayous-ALC-Ayous-Koto (~50 USD at aliexpress)
DHS PG-5: Limba-Ayous-ALC-Ayous-ALC-Ayous-Limba (~30 USD at aliexpress)
DHS Fang Bo 2 (Hurricane Fang Bo/Fang Bo Carbon): Limba-Ayous-ALC-Ayous-ALC-Ayous-Limba (~50 USD at aliexpress)
Yinhe Mars M201: Koto-Ayous-PLC-Ayous-PLC-Ayous-Koto (~40 USD at aliexpress)
Yinhe Mars M202: Limba-Ayous-PLC-Ayous-PLC-Ayous-Limba (~40 USD at aliexpress)
Sanwei F3 Pro: Ayous-Spruce-ALC-Ayous-ALC-Spruce-Ayous (~40 USD at aliexpress)
Friendship/729 V-6: Limba-Ayous-ALC-Kiri-ALC-Ayous-Limba (~20 USD at aliexpress)

Don't worry about the build quality, these are typically on par when it comes to assembly and finish with products from "old" brands, but indeed materials will be slightly cheaper (both wood and artificial layers). Alternatively you can start buying Butterfly ALC/AL/ZLC/ZLF/Tamca innerforce blades in 100-200 USD range (new) or cheaper (2nd hand), they are kind of benchmark and always will be.

iamsan · Jan 2, 2019

Wow thank you very much! I really appreciate that and gonna start a run!
Tell me more please about your journey!

JST · Jan 2, 2019

iamsan said:
Tell me more please about your journey!

Well not so much to tell. I've came back to TT after 15 years of hiatus, now in my mid 30s. I always plaid with all wood blades in 38mm and then 40mm celluloid eras and I never really spent money on TT equipment (as student

so I wanted to test some things in between the seasons. I originally started with Yasaka Sweden Extra (5-ply with anigre outer ply an ALL+/OFF- speed range), tried several Bfly Primorac OFF- (which is the blade I used the most before I stopped playing) and then settled down with Tibhar Stratus Powerwood (slightly faster OFF- with limba outer ply and the same composition as Primorac, Korbel or Appelgren Allplay). But I always wanted to try some ALC or similar as all the "modern" and more expensive blades have it nowadays.

I had chance to try briefly Butterfly Innerforce Layer AL and ALC.s with Tibhar Evolution series on it (the softer variants) and AL one was especially amazing with the ability to spin and keep the ball on the table from both sides under almost every condition. It felt like my YSE but holding the ball "forever" before releasing back (probably because of limba outer and different rubbers). Anyway I was hesitating what to buy for longer test and because I didn't want to spend 120+ USD on the blade which I will potentially sell few weeks or months later I was picking from the list above. In the end it comes down to time you have available for such testing and because trainings are pretty poor off-season and the quality of sparing partners in my club as well I decided to go with one: highly praised H301. It's good blade which is very close to OFF-/OFF speed and feel of my TSPW on a first sight but I lost few tight matches with it by not being able to play my usual "crushing" 3rd ball attack topspins from both FH and BH into low pushes and I felt much better when turning back to my Tibhar blade (especially from BH side). I blame harder koto outer ply of H301 and my poor technique, the blade itself will probably suite many players. I also tested ALC outer layer construction (Yinhe V-14 which is basically Butterfly TB ALC/Viscaria imitation apart from ayous vs. limba middle layer under ALC) which doesn't fit into category you are looking into and just confirmed this is too fast and repulsive for my allround style of play.

As conclusion I'm fine with all-wood blades and softer outer plies right now (mainly because I have over 90% success rate this season in lower regional division I play) and I might come back to testing in few months when season is over (DHS ALC-like inner constructions with limba outer are still tempting so I will probably try DHS PG5 or something similar, it should be basically cheaper and slower Hurricane Long 5 version...)

M.Hoang · Jan 2, 2019

JST said:
Well not so much to tell. I've came back to TT after 15 years of hiatus, now in my mid 30s. I always plaid with all wood blades in 38mm and then 40mm celluloid eras and I never really spent money on TT equipment (as student so I wanted to test some things in between the seasons. I originally started with Yasaka Sweden Extra (5-ply with anigre outer ply an ALL+/OFF- speed range), tried several Bfly Primorac OFF- (which is the blade I used the most before I stopped playing) and then settled down with Tibhar Stratus Powerwood (slightly faster OFF- with limba outer ply and the same composition as Primorac, Korbel or Appelgren Allplay). But I always wanted to try some ALC or similar as all the "modern" and more expensive blades have it nowadays.

I had chance to try briefly Butterfly Innerforce Layer AL and ALC.s with Tibhar Evolution series on it (the softer variants) and AL one was especially amazing with the ability to spin and keep the ball on the table from both sides under almost every condition. It felt like my YSE but holding the ball "forever" before releasing back (probably because of limba outer and different rubbers). Anyway I was hesitating what to buy for longer test and because I didn't want to spend 120+ USD on the blade which I will potentially sell few weeks or months later I was picking from the list above. In the end it comes down to time you have available for such testing and because trainings are pretty poor off-season and the quality of sparing partners in my club as well I decided to go with one: highly praised H301. It's good blade which is very close to OFF-/OFF speed and feel of my TSPW on a first sight but I lost few tight matches with it by not being able to play my usual "crushing" 3rd ball attack topspins from both FH and BH into low pushes and I felt much better when turning back to my Tibhar blade (especially from BH side). I blame harder koto outer ply of H301 and my poor technique, the blade itself will probably suite many players. I also tested ALC outer layer construction (Yinhe V-14 which is basically Butterfly TB ALC/Viscaria imitation apart from ayous vs. limba middle layer under ALC) which doesn't fit into category you are looking into and just confirmed this is too fast and repulsive for my allround style of play.

As conclusion I'm fine with all-wood blades and softer outer plies right now (mainly because I have over 90% success rate this season in lower regional division I play) and I might come back to testing in few months when season is over (DHS ALC-like inner constructions with limba outer are still tempting so I will probably try DHS PG5 or something similar, it should be basically cheaper and slower Hurricane Long 5 version...)

Haven't play with Long V before, but PG5 is not slow. with my exp, i think it 's fater than 5 or 7 all-wood blade significantly. I sold it and buy Sanwei fextra- a 7 ply-wood and now i am feeling satisfied. Some one tried three blade: PG5, H301, Fangbo2 and chose H301. I also hear many good reviews about H301.

JST · Jan 2, 2019

M.Hoang said:
Haven't play with Long V before, but PG5 is not slow. with my exp, i think it 's fater than 5 or 7 all-wood blade significantly. I sold it and buy Sanwei fextra- a 7 ply-wood and now i am feeling satisfied. Some one tried three blade: PG5, H301, Fangbo2 and chose H301. I also hear many good reviews about H301.

This actually complements my tests nicely because I also ordered Sanwei Fextra 7 for test and waiting for delivery. So I can keep my hopes high (because some testers suggest it's also faster then usual OFF-/OFF 5-ply blades!) When it comes to H301: go for it if you like harder outer ply woods, it harms my feel when spinning difficult shots.

M.Hoang · Jan 2, 2019

The quality of DHS blade is really not good. My PG5 had a problem, the core was stripped of wood when i peeled off the border. some people has encountered this problem, and out-layer is easy to be woodchips. Maybe i will not try another blade of dhs

P/S: my english is not good, so there will be some mistake in my comments. Sorry...

JST · Jan 2, 2019

M.Hoang said:
The quality of DHS blade is really not good. My PG5 had a problem, the core was stripped of wood when i peeled off the border.

I always seal outer layers of my blades, apply thin layers of varnish (I use Joola, Stiga also sells one and basically any well selected varnish for wooden surface will do the job) and use sand paper again because I also encountered splinters (if that is what you mean). But this is common problem for most of the blades even expensive ones (including some of those Butterfly Innerforce pieces sold for $150), especially if it's softer wood like limba or ayous. Some brands like Yasaka come already treated from the factory and I really like that. I was worried that varnish will change the properties of the blade and it probably does in bigger layers but I plaid with my TSPW before and after I lacquered the surface and I couldn't notice the difference (so probably it's fine unless you are semi-pro player or even more serious and you have exceptional feel). Maybe I'm just too careful and use very thin layers, it's still to be seen if it stops splintering on all blades I treated in past 12 months...

iamsan · Jan 2, 2019

Thanks for that inside, really appreciate it.
Sadly u can't give a direct comparison between limba with composite and without. Also what about ZLC?
I wonder what's the feel able differences between both and if there are also cheap blades to test innerlyed ZLC

JST · Jan 2, 2019

iamsan said:
Thanks for that inside, really appreciate it.
Sadly u can't give a direct comparison between limba with composite and without. Also what about ZLC?
I wonder what's the feel able differences between both and if there are also cheap blades to test innerlyed ZLC

I'm afraid we are approaching zone where any further blind analysis over the internet starts to be wasting of your time. You have no idea what is my level and playing style, I have no idea about yours. Yes, we would now start exchanging youtube videos as saying "look to that match not that one because I wasn't in the best shape there" etc. but in the end feel in your hand is what matters. Already manufacturing differences can be beyond the detail of our conversation here.

So better to choose one or two, get them from Aliexpress and test yourself. My experience is that even if you don't like them you can sell it later so such test will cost you 20-40 dollars in maximum. Looks like fair price considering you are spending 50-100 on rubbers every year and you want to keep that blade for many years to come...

iamsan · Jan 6, 2019

I guess my consideration about carbon blades are based on the power and engagement of level I have to put in into my ALL-setup. I want my quality shots to be easier executable instead of putting hard work each time.

JST · Jan 6, 2019

Hi again. Please don't take this as trolling, I hope others will reply as well. But I need to say this looks like typical mistake and lack of understanding how TT works: yes, you can get something which will play faster and you will think it will do the job for you. But that is dead end. You need to have good footwork and good technique, that's the only way forward. if you think that you it's too hard to play with ALL blade then something is wrong but it's not your blade. Ideally you should find the way how to prepare the ball and then attack it easily. Have >90% of your stronger topspin attack on the table, be able to change the placement without problem (one BH corner, one FH corner, one middle into the body etc.) Then if you will feel that you have plenty of time for every stroke because you are reading the game right, you are sending your opponent here and there and you are always in you ready position, basically when you will start being bored and you almost think you can read text messages during the game, then go for faster setup (and of course also higher league if you have >80% winning rate).

Stay with 5-ply wood, maybe go for ALL+/OFF- like Primorac because that is the level which even beginners can handle (assuming they are having some coaching and they are willing to learn the right body movements, strokes and drills). But don't go for more unless you really are feeling that you master the exchange and you have correct timing for your attacks. That is my advice.

NextLevel · Jan 6, 2019

The main point of composites is to increase stiffness without increasing thickness. This is a good thing if you prefer stiffer blades but want the thinner feel of a looping blade. Thinner composites can get the stiffness of thicker 7 plies.

Wister · Jan 6, 2019

Yep i'm also wondering what about a composite blade that have the same speed as a allwood blade, will it be easier to execute shot as the sweet spot is generally bigger ?

Also it looks like (almost) only butterfly is doing inner layer carbon and ALC blades. Why is it so ? I'm surprised to not see something like this for stiga (ALC, or inner layer carbon). Is it just me ?

vossi39 · Jan 6, 2019

And then there is speed vs. weight. With composites you get the same speed, with a lighter blade.

JST · Jan 6, 2019

Wister said:
Yep i'm also wondering what about a composite blade that have the same speed as a allwood blade, will it be easier to execute shot as the sweet spot is generally bigger ?

Also it looks like (almost) only butterfly is doing inner layer carbon and ALC blades. Why is it so ? I'm surprised to not see something like this for stiga (ALC, or inner layer carbon). Is it just me ?

Basically all Chinese brands have stockpile of inner layer carbon and composite blades, classic brands like Joola or Andro have also several. Butterfly introduced ALC as material (and before they were first with pure carbon I believe) and they first introduced inner layer ALC but since then many brands followed (as always).

Butterfly Innerforce series - whats the deal in compare to 5ply/7ply allwood blades?

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