Allwood for FH oriented and Composite for BH oriented players

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 4, 2019

Hi all,

I saw one time that a FH oriented oriented player should/could use Allwood blade and BH oriented player should/could use Composite blade.

Is that why? Because FH oriented player needs a little extra time and control to use more his FH and BH player needs quicker strokes that a composite blade could let him do more easily?

For example, Zhang Jike, he's BH oriented and uses a Viscaria. Ma Long used w506(allwood) and now he uses w968(it's composite,but has much more woody feel that Viscaria imho). Their confirm this theory?

Best Regards,

Eduardo

729B2 · Jan 4, 2019

yeah the whole CNT uses the W968 or the viscaria for that reason and it seems to be spreading around the world too.
Watch the super league matches it confims that . basically easier as you said

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

Yeah it's true, I found it interesting!

729B2 · Jan 5, 2019

eduardo1995filipe said:
Yeah it's true, I found it interesting!

i tried a fusion of those 2 it does work "almost as well" and the w968 / n301 just a touch harder

FruitLoop · Jan 5, 2019

Not sure there is any truth to it. Even Xu Xin has started using a composite. Calderano meanwhile uses all wood. There are very few all wood players left. Harimoto uses composite. Koki Niwa and Mizutani use very fast blades indeed. Truls uses maybe the fastest blade around and he is much stronger on the forehand.

Not seeing the pattern you seek.

yogi_bear · Jan 5, 2019

Kong Ling Hui's blade was like this years ago.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 5, 2019

yogi_bear said:
Kong Ling Hui's blade was like this years ago.

Yogi, I think you misunderstood what the OP is saying.

Kong used a blade with no composite (all wood) on FH side and a composite layer on the BH side. And I could see how you misinterpreted what was said to mean this.

But I believe what eduardo is suggesting is that BH DOMINANT players would use faster composite blades like a Viscaria for quicker play and FH DOMINANT players would use all wood blades for extra time.

Then eduardo rationalizes that, even though Ma Long uses a composite blade, it is an inner layer composite blade so it is more like a wood blade.

Personally, I think the logic there is a little off. But....

Anyway, Yogi is suggesting an interesting idea that perhaps is parallel to the idea eduardo is positing. But in reality, each player uses what feels best to him or her. There are no rules like this that actually apply.

An idea like the one eduardo is offering seems to come out of a certain kind of black and white thinking: things have to be one way or another way. When really, players have a rainbow of choices, an amazing variety of choices, for their equipment.

And the closest thing to a pattern that I can see is that players who are lower level consistently use equipment that they cannot handle and consistently do not understand or want to understand that they cannot control the equipment they have chosen.

yogi_bear · Jan 5, 2019

Yeah i did i thought he was saying a combination blade. Lol.

Lula · Jan 5, 2019

I agree that people proably use to fast equipment. Do not think it is good for their developement, but it is proably alot of fun.

I do not know much about equipment but i think players that want more feel and control tend to use wood blades and players that want more power tend to use composite blades. I also think that players that play close to the table want faster blade, where the arch is lower and the ball leaves faster so the opponent get under pressure and lose time. While players that play further away from the table want slower blades where the arch is higher and the ball stays a little longer on the racket. And most of the time i think the faster blade is composite and the slower blade is wood, but maybe it is hard to make that generalisation. The point is, that i do not think it is so much about backhand or forehand players but more about the playing style.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 5, 2019

Lula said:
I agree that people proably use to fast equipment. Do not think it is good for their developement, but it is proably alot of fun.

I do not know much about equipment but i think players that want more feel and control tend to use wood blades and players that want more power tend to use composite blades. I also think that players that play close to the table want faster blade, where the arch is lower and the ball leaves faster so the opponent get under pressure and lose time. While players that play further away from the table want slower blades where the arch is higher and the ball stays a little longer on the racket. And most of the time i think the faster blade is composite and the slower blade is wood, but maybe it is hard to make that generalisation. The point is, that i do not think it is so much about backhand or forehand players but more about the playing style.

This is an excellent post.

Manny Calavera · Jan 5, 2019

I believe it is the opposite, regarding close or far to the table. Players that play far away are using faster blades and players that play close to the table want slower blades with more control (exception are the defensive players). When you play close to the table the points tents to be fast so you want more control and time to react.
Of course that is only my opinion and what i get from my playing

FruitLoop · Jan 5, 2019

Lula's point makes sense in theory, but I am not sure I see much of the logic in reality in terms of pro choices of blade (at least as far as we can tell what they actually use). For example in the women's game, there are many close to the table counter attacking or smashing players. Liu Shiwen, Chen Meng, Zhu Yuling, Mima Ito, Miu Hirano. None of them use a particularly fast blade. All of them use a slower blade than a Butterfly outer ALC blade for example. They differ in type, some composite, some 7 ply all wood (clipper) but none are lightning fast and in fact would be on the slow end of the spectrum of pro blades for attacking players.

Then you get some away from the table power loopers who use very fast blades. Pitchford with a ZLC for example, which is a speed demon of a blade. Truls uses a Carbonado 290, even faster. Schlager himself used a Primorac carbon although that was long ago.

Similarly with the idea that backhand dominant players use faster composite blades than forehand dominant ones. Does what we know about pro blade choices bear this out? I don't see evidence that it does. LJK, Dima, ZJK, FZD all BH dominant players using either a Viscaria or clone thereof. Other players with notable backhands use IF type blade (Harimoto), acoustic carbon (Ito), all wood Cornilleau (Hugo).

Forehand dominant players, Ma Long inner composite, Xu Xin now Stiga composite blade, Ma Lin used all wood, so did Liqin, Ding Ning all wood and composite (she has switched between), Truls Carbonado 290, WCT JZK ALC, Timo Boll, Boll ALC, Wang Chuqin Viscaria etc.

I am just not seeing this in the data even if it makes theoretical logical sense.

RidTheKid · Jan 5, 2019

Xu Xin has used carbon blade for a while now. Before The Dynasty he used DHS n301.

FruitLoop said:
Lula's point makes sense in theory, but I am not sure I see much of the logic in reality in terms of pro choices of blade (at least as far as we can tell what they actually use). For example in the women's game, there are many close to the table counter attacking or smashing players. Liu Shiwen, Chen Meng, Zhu Yuling, Mima Ito, Miu Hirano. None of them use a particularly fast blade. All of them use a slower blade than a Butterfly outer ALC blade for example. They differ in type, some composite, some 7 ply all wood (clipper) but none are lightning fast and in fact would be on the slow end of the spectrum of pro blades for attacking players.

Then you get some away from the table power loopers who use very fast blades. Pitchford with a ZLC for example, which is a speed demon of a blade. Truls uses a Carbonado 290, even faster. Schlager himself used a Primorac carbon although that was long ago.

Similarly with the idea that backhand dominant players use faster composite blades than forehand dominant ones. Does what we know about pro blade choices bear this out? I don't see evidence that it does. LJK, Dima, ZJK, FZD all BH dominant players using either a Viscaria or clone thereof. Other players with notable backhands use IF type blade (Harimoto), acoustic carbon (Ito), all wood Cornilleau (Hugo).

Forehand dominant players, Ma Long inner composite, Xu Xin now Stiga composite blade, Ma Lin used all wood, so did Liqin, Ding Ning all wood and composite (she has switched between), Truls Carbonado 290, WCT JZK ALC, Timo Boll, Boll ALC, Wang Chuqin Viscaria etc.

I am just not seeing this in the data even if it makes theoretical logical sense.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

729B2 said:
i tried a fusion of those 2 it does work "almost as well" and the w968 / n301 just a touch harder

Was with Kiri core or Ayous core? You used the Viscaria side on BH? That's how I would use it

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

FruitLoop said:
Not sure there is any truth to it. Even Xu Xin has started using a composite. Calderano meanwhile uses all wood. There are very few all wood players left. Harimoto uses composite. Koki Niwa and Mizutani use very fast blades indeed. Truls uses maybe the fastest blade around and he is much stronger on the forehand.

Not seeing the pattern you seek.

I thought Koki Niwa changed to his Allwood Blade from Victas.

But yeah, and I've remembered now, Liu Dingshuo, Fang Bo are FH oriented and they also use Viscaria.

But when I saw this I thought that was theoretically correct

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

UpSideDownCarl said:
And the closest thing to a pattern that I can see is that players who are lower level consistently use equipment that they cannot handle and consistently do not understand or want to understand that they cannot control the equipment they have chosen.

Yeah, that's true, maybe almost of people suffered from that I guess. Me to, because my coaches never checked our equipment so I changed to composite very soon and my development suffered.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

Lula said:
I agree that people proably use to fast equipment. Do not think it is good for their developement, but it is proably alot of fun.

I do not know much about equipment but i think players that want more feel and control tend to use wood blades and players that want more power tend to use composite blades. I also think that players that play close to the table want faster blade, where the arch is lower and the ball leaves faster so the opponent get under pressure and lose time. While players that play further away from the table want slower blades where the arch is higher and the ball stays a little longer on the racket. And most of the time i think the faster blade is composite and the slower blade is wood, but maybe it is hard to make that generalisation. The point is, that i do not think it is so much about backhand or forehand players but more about the playing style.

Manny Calavera said:
I believe it is the opposite, regarding close or far to the table. Players that play far away are using faster blades and players that play close to the table want slower blades with more control (exception are the defensive players). When you play close to the table the points tents to be fast so you want more control and time to react.
Of course that is only my opinion and what i get from my playing

I agree with both answers as both have legit arguments. But I think the speed of the blade has more with the player preference, or the pratice time that makes a player "tame" a blade.

I think the most important factor in if you play close/far from the table it's the blade stiffness. Theoretically, a player that plays mostly close to the table can gain more advantage of a Clipper(7mm) than a player that plays at mid distance. A player that plays at mid distance maybe would prefer a flexier blade, a HL3 for example.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

FruitLoop said:
Lula's point makes sense in theory, but I am not sure I see much of the logic in reality in terms of pro choices of blade (at least as far as we can tell what they actually use). For example in the women's game, there are many close to the table counter attacking or smashing players. Liu Shiwen, Chen Meng, Zhu Yuling, Mima Ito, Miu Hirano. None of them use a particularly fast blade. All of them use a slower blade than a Butterfly outer ALC blade for example. They differ in type, some composite, some 7 ply all wood (clipper) but none are lightning fast and in fact would be on the slow end of the spectrum of pro blades for attacking players.

Then you get some away from the table power loopers who use very fast blades. Pitchford with a ZLC for example, which is a speed demon of a blade. Truls uses a Carbonado 290, even faster. Schlager himself used a Primorac carbon although that was long ago.

Similarly with the idea that backhand dominant players use faster composite blades than forehand dominant ones. Does what we know about pro blade choices bear this out? I don't see evidence that it does. LJK, Dima, ZJK, FZD all BH dominant players using either a Viscaria or clone thereof. Other players with notable backhands use IF type blade (Harimoto), acoustic carbon (Ito), all wood Cornilleau (Hugo).

Forehand dominant players, Ma Long inner composite, Xu Xin now Stiga composite blade, Ma Lin used all wood, so did Liqin, Ding Ning all wood and composite (she has switched between), Truls Carbonado 290, WCT JZK ALC, Timo Boll, Boll ALC, Wang Chuqin Viscaria etc.

I am just not seeing this in the data even if it makes theoretical logical sense.

Liqin used Timo Boll Spirit, don't remember how much time(maybe a switched back to allwood after one tournament, like what he used to do eheh). Chen qi used Maze Off and used also ZJK ALC in 2013 before e retired.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 5, 2019

RidTheKid said:
Xu Xin has used carbon blade for a while now. Before The Dynasty he used DHS n301.

Yeah and that was more woody feel than the Dynasty.

FruitLoop · Jan 6, 2019

The range of blade speeds attacking pros use is very narrow. If any of you are familiar with the "frequency response" blade speed correlation, basically every pro uses something between 1300-1600 Hz. Almost no exceptions I can think of or find. The vast majority of these use something between 1350-1500 Hz! Apart from defensive players of course. When commercial blades go from about 800-2200. No matter the style of attacking player. Essentially between Korbel/Acoustic - Mizutani ZLC speed. Something to think about! Amateurs using blades any faster than a Viscaria type unless they have a very specific blocking style or something is just foolhardy! They should probably not go faster than the low end of this range tbh! So many weak amateurs use blades faster than 50% of pros. A bit insane when you think about it.

Allwood for FH oriented and Composite for BH oriented players

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