[LHTT #52_Match in China] Merciless Attack by Coach

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She has a nice backhand. Her shirt say ”We have created world Champions for more than 68 years” in swedish. Or atleast i think so, she moved fast so it was hard to read.
 
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You are doing alot of practice! okay, i will try!

I think my text might be a bit unorganized since your video is pretty long and i find stuff worth mentioning in different times of the video. But i will do my best!

After watching the first balls i still asking myself how much you think when you are playing. I feel a bit rude that i ask this again, since i have mention it alot before so i would think you try to think when you play, but i do not really see it. Please correct me if im wrong. In example you are serving long two times in the beginning. First one, you miss the second block and the second one she gets the advantage. How is this possible? If you serve long you know a player at this level will loop the ball. Then you need to have the racket high and be ready to block well so you get the advantage. You can not be surprised that you get a loop against you. You also know that she will loop pretty hard since you seem to do a topspin serve, she will proably loop more slow topspin if you serve backspin or sidespinbackspin. You also flipped a ball in the begin. If you flip against an attacking player you need to be ready that they can loop back. I think i will see this more in the video but do not need to comment more about it since i believe, you are understanding my point. When you play you need to think where the next ball might come depending on what you do, especially in serve and return.

I also think that you seem to have alot of variation in serve and return which is good, but i think you really need to work on a playing style. Try to think what you are good at, practice that and try to use that in the match. Now it almost seems like you have no purpose with serve and return and hope for the best. In example, if you are better at attacking the ball yourself you should try to serve more short, push more short so you can open first and try to loop and get the advantage. I understand that i wise to serve long sometimes for variation but if you are better at attacking, your weakness is proably defence and blocking and when you serve long you will not loop first but you will block. If you instead, like my are very good at blocking it is smarter to serve long and push long since you can block well and get an advantage this way.

I think that you should always try to follow your playingstyle and use your strengths but we also need to try to change the tactics a litlle depending on who whe play against. It seems pretty obvious to me that she is good at attacking, then you need to try to serve short and push short and prevent here from attacking. In tactics it also is important to know that you need to change the gameplay sometimes. In example if you serve long and push long and she destroys you with her attacks then you need try to stop doing these things and try something else . Otherwise you will keep loosing points.

I have almost only watched five minutes now, so i might be wrong that this is the case for the rest of the game. she also seems better than you so it might be difficult. But it seems to me that in all the videos it is the above that is lacking. Not the technique or level of play, that is pretty high, but more of the above. Especially practicing on strengths and try to use them in a match so you do not play at random and hope for the best. If you just practice everything and not focus on your strenghts you will have to practice forever to become good at everything. It is almost a waste of time to practie things we do not use in a match.

I have a story about playing styles. In club that we share a hall with, there are some pretty good players. One play with long pimple and pushblock. He can barely do two things, pushblock and forehand loop. This is the only thing he practice and he becomes good at it, and he is able to get this play at a match so he win pretty much games at a pretty high level. It looks pretty ugly and he have no good technique. His teammates have much much much better technique and is overall better players but they practice a little of everything and do net get their game as much in matches so they can not use their strengths as much so they do not win as much matches as the pushblocking player despite having alot better technique.

I enjoy watching your videos and progress but i start to feel frustrated that you seem to have a problem listening to my advice about the things above. You would become a much better player if you did. Or maybe you do listen but have a hard time implementing it. I also find it extremely strange and it makes me confused that you seem to practice with very good coaches but yet they do not seem to talk about this. But maybe they do, but i feel that i do not looks like it. Please do not be angry if im wrong, i just say what i think. I think, next time you are working with a coach talk about the above mention things and try to focus less on the technique.

I do not know if i really need to watch the rest of the video and try to say what i think about your technique. i think you already have pretty good technique and should instead try to focus more on what i talked about above.

And maybe im wrong about what i said above since i have not watched the whole video yet, but it seems to be the pattern over several videos. And it is so importan that we can always talk more about it. But then again, i understand that it is difficult if you play against a somewhat better player.

I watched not the whole video, it was so looong! but parts of it and i still think that your technique looks pretty good and i think you play with so many coaches so they can help you with that. it is harder to explain technique online. I also noticed that it seemed like you played better and better and i think it would be smart to try to think what you did different when you played better, how was the tactics and what kind of shots did you play.

I think that if you just focus more on tactics, playing style and think more when you play you will become much better i no time and you have the possible to develop into a really really good player in the future.

Good luck! I hope i did not was to harsh, i did not mean it that way.
 
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Lula you are not being harsh... it is frank and free, solid advice.

What you discuss I often try to make opportunities, often out of nothing, in order to make this kind of discussion about the things that contribute to growing playing level.

I agree with your assessment that doing everything at once is difficult to grow a leveraged match play

I would be of opposite opinion that STRATEGICALLY, for future growth it is good to practice the things you need to be successful on much later at a higher level...

A few examples would be a USATT 1500 level player (this level is nowhere near good enough for Div 4 in Sweden) practicing returning short serves and flipping to the idle or wide. In a match a 1500 level player tries to push short and low... he will make mistakes 9 of 10 times and lose the point nearly every tie he tries to do that in a match. Ditto with a flip.

Yet, if at this level, if a payer at 1500 level doesn't begin to practice those shots, he or she will REALLY struggle to make it past 2000 level as they get closer... all the payers who were practicing this at 1500 level finally get it by the time they are near 2000... so they make and cross past 2000 level easier.

This is the argument of a progressive and strategic approach vs the immediate payoff battle-focused stuff.

Personally, I think a player should pay attention to both approaches.

Many coaches and players will disagree... there are many paths that work.
 
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Lula, maybe another thing you ought to understand is that in Korean amateur TT, the coaches in the club are mostly ex-pro or ex-elite athletes.... they al have a top secret development playbook that is very rigid and very consistent among coaches. They have their own way to develop and it is much different.

In short, Korean coaches stress the fundamentals of shots... and make you repeat it over and over and over and over.... when they start out a player, just about everything is about the technique of a shot... there is about zero teaching of how to pay a match. This type of instruction continues for many levels. At some point, they start incorporating things that help you in match play.... but you ight go a year or two or three before you really get into much of that. Some old-school coaches make you do hundreds of hours of shadow stroke before they even start a player at the table.

The balance starting off is nearly 100% on basics and zero on match play. The coaches are not worried about a player becoming number one player in the HOPE division or Div 5 city.... they want the player to have a strong foundation before developing the match play. Everything they teach will later fit in with how to pay a match... most older coaches slant the play towards what Lua is accustomed to.... footwork and connecting shots in a point expected to go several shots and many shots.
 
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Lula you are not being harsh... it is frank and free, solid advice.

What you discuss I often try to make opportunities, often out of nothing, in order to make this kind of discussion about the things that contribute to growing playing level.

I agree with your assessment that doing everything at once is difficult to grow a leveraged match play

I would be of opposite opinion that STRATEGICALLY, for future growth it is good to practice the things you need to be successful on much later at a higher level...

A few examples would be a USATT 1500 level player (this level is nowhere near good enough for Div 4 in Sweden) practicing returning short serves and flipping to the idle or wide. In a match a 1500 level player tries to push short and low... he will make mistakes 9 of 10 times and lose the point nearly every tie he tries to do that in a match. Ditto with a flip.

Yet, if at this level, if a payer at 1500 level doesn't begin to practice those shots, he or she will REALLY struggle to make it past 2000 level as they get closer... all the payers who were practicing this at 1500 level finally get it by the time they are near 2000... so they make and cross past 2000 level easier.

This is the argument of a progressive and strategic approach vs the immediate payoff battle-focused stuff.

Personally, I think a player should pay attention to both approaches.

Many coaches and players will disagree... there are many paths that work.

Okay good!

I agree that it is important that to be able to play all kind of shots to be able to be successfull at a higher level. But i still think when you reach a certain level where you can do almost all shots pretty well, as i think Nicholasy has done it is important to try to work more on certain shots and try to get them in a game.

I also agree that it is important that practice the more difficult shots, but maybe they can try to do it more in practice games till they become safe enough to use it in real matches. But then again it might be difficult to implement it in real games then. I agree that if we do not use the shots in games, maybe we should not practice them either. I trying to learn to kill the ball better with my backhand, it works okay in exercises but i never use it in match so really need to try to implement it in match play as you say or stop practicing it. It is no use for me to practice it if i do not use it in match.

I agree that it is important to use both approaches. In training games i think you could either focus on winning or trying to practice something that you want to use in a match. A lot of players forget the last approach. I also think different approaches suit different players. I had almost to much focus on technique before, it was almost more important that the technique were good than it was for me to win. I would proably have become a better player if i tried to do alot of exercises in which you are counting and trying to win so i was practicing on learning to focus on winning. While players that just want to win proably need to focus more on trying to implement new technique in their games otherwise they will like you said have a harder time to develop new technique.

i agree that there is a lot of paths. I think it would be a really good idea for coaches to try to work together and to learn of eachother more than they do today to be able to learn new paths on how to reach success. Atleast in a larger scale if we as a nation want to become a top nation in tabletennis again.
 
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Lula, you make a good discussion of the pros and cons of putting emphasis on development, strategic, or match focus for training.

You rightfully note that if a player wants to grow a certain shot or rally sequence, one should train it.. when the right consistency//quality is there, then try to incorporate it in match play... but the reality is (as you noted) that it takes 6 months or so to get that shot used in a match just to reach a break-even point before it becomes profitable... in those 6 months, you lose points trying it out, even if it is good in practice.

That is the reality of not getting to 100 percent on all shots/rally sequences before you focus heavily on growing match play.

The Korean approach spends more time on the fundamentals before shifting to growing the match play.

This is kinda like a drag strip racing on a real long track... the ones who kick in their boost of nitrix oxide power earlier wil ove ahead sooner but the ones who kicked on that boost much later reach a much faster top speed earlier near the end of the strip and bow by the one who kicked it in too early.

This is a way to visualize the way coaches over there operate.

If you visit an elite training of Korean kids you would be very surprised. The ex-pro guy hired to whip the kids into paying shape gets a small hall for 4-6 tables and training nets. You would think that they work on all kind of really complicated advanced stuff but you would be surprised when you see it with your own eyes that they practice the most basic of stuff.... over and over and over... they get their feel from that repetition. They get the most solid of base foundation and build on it with later instruction of how to put together points and tactics.

The first time I went to see such a training, I thought I would see stuff pros do in matches… what I saw is the same stuff coach at amateur club does... but pro coach for the kids is like an Army drill instructor... but 10x tougher.

One of my founding members of Korea Foreign TT trained some months with a GIRLS HS squad.... He went from Div 3 national to Div 1 national level in 6 months training with them. He won a boatload of Div 1 national tourneys after that training. They almost put hi in Champions league.
 
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I give a small story of how my balance of allocation of shaping my match play for playing to win worked out.

When I moved to California... whenever I played a match, I was playing to win 100% of the time. I paced nearly every possible energy into doing what you advised Nicolasy to do... focus and leveraging the skills into a playing style that will maximize the chances of winning points.

I did this exclusively... and I dropped 1.5 levels of rating my first tourney here... I did 5 more tourneys and my level was pretty much the same if not worse.

We had a new club open up. I switched to dynamic control rubbers and blade, and I played a ton of matches with 2 players 2-3 levels above me. I would play these matches to win as well, but I was also trying to focus on using new things I knew I needed to grow. I could list them all, but these were things I needed to do well to play at over 2000 USATT level. With some months doing it like that, I could see a very large number of areas improve dramatically... but in measurable quantifiable ways and in subjective ways. I never gained higher performance in these matches, because the main guy I play against grew his game level at pretty much the same rate and always had an answer.

6-9 moths later I was showing it in tourneys and had a breakthrough at 12 month point. Gained 1.5+ levels of rating.

I can personally say there can be difficulty doing this.... it is not easy to give up match performance while growing skills to be successful at a higher level. Everyone will have their preference... right or wrong of how to go about it.

These kind of discussions I believe are a lot more profitable than discussing equipment like most of tend to do on forums. I a glad this chance came up.
 
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I agree with you that fundamentals is very important and you should try to work on that. I think one reason why asia migth be better than europé or atleast Sweden is that they have more competent coaches from the beginning. So they learn the correct technique from the beginning and so not need to change it later and can instead work on the repetitions to become safe.

I think almost all countries focus on getting very good fundamentals first.

I Do not think i would become so surprised by Seeing them Do easy exercises.
I agree that it is better to Do easier exercises so you hit alot of balls over the net and get many repetitions and can work on the technique. Pretty common sense when you think about it. I also think We can see that the pros think the same since they play pretty easy Exercises.


But i still think it seems strange that they Do not work on playing styles, tactics and to play with a thought. Do they want their players to play like zoombies or machines?

It must be easier to win games if they focus on this. I would think swedish kids would stop playing if they lose to much.

I also think it is good to get great fundamentals But at some point i think We need to try to be happy with the fundamentals and focus on becoming better at certain stuff that We want to use more in games. I Do think it almost is a little waste of time to practice everything. Then We Will have trouble becoming really good at something and have a hard time knowing which balls We want so it Will be diffixult to know how We should serve and return. It is also hard to have enough time to become really good at Everything.
 
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Haha everytime i am Done with my answer you have already written a new one! You write fast!

I agree that there is too much focus on equipment here.
 
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Not really Lula, the keyboard of this laptop has several keys that do not respond, so I must type 10x slower than normal.

I also try to thin a lot of what I write,, so it isn't hyper millennial kid 2 thumb texting speed either.

At a later tie the coaches bring out the match play stuff but they spend a WAY longer time drilling before they go down that path.
 
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Lula, Der_Echte

Your advice is fatally to me, but I would like to accept it as "A Clue"

In Korean saying,
Bitter medicine is good for one's body.

It's not easy to take it, I believe that it wlll make me stronger an stronger.

Both your opinion, I'd understood.

Firstly, Lula.

As you mentioned, I love "Long and Quick Service" and I studied it from Mizutani's Video and SVC Strategy.
Also, I know that it'll be returned to long position and I like to Block or Counter-Hit.

But my block is not good enough for Pro's topspin, but it works well to Amateur.

At this point, the things should be improved

1) After Long SV, I have to keep high position of Racket to prepare the block
2) Even it works, Too Much Long SV makes simple tactics and return it by Topspin, then losing the change for Attacking
3) If it doesn't works, Playing Style should be changed during the game.

#77 Match Video is done for about 2 months ago. I'd got your advice and I'll try to imrove for next.
In fact, Today Sunday Morning League, I'd applied your advice.

But during the match with Coach, The game winning or losing is not important to me.
I'd like to test my tech. and leanings with Coach. Sometimes I know the counter attack from Coach
Even so I'd like to test my block ability, so I use it again and again to Coach.
 
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In fact, I'm not good at "Short and Spin" SVC, it means that still I don't know how to make a better Backspin for Short SV.
So If I use it to Coach for "Short and Less Backspin" SVC, then Coach will attack it, no any change to me.

CHN/KOR Coach never use "Normal Push" agaist Short & Backspin, They do attack like fast flick. Their Flick is so fast,
and more harder to block it.

Even so, I'd understood your advice, so recently I'm practicing the backspin SV.


Second to Der_Echte,

You're understanding Korean Training Style well. Basiccally, I'm also used for KOR/CHN system.

Even Lula said that My Tech. is pretty good, but me and My coach isn't.
As you know, we're praticing it again & again X Over 100 times.

I'm also in Growing Level, so I think that it's time to make more powerful fundermentals.

My coach's thinking is like that. They think that my tactics is not bad, but my basics is still not high level.
Especially Forehand Topspin (My Bad Flit Hit). We're focusing this improved for Forehand Training (Again & Again...)
 
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Yes, do not take it like criticism, more like that we want to help you :) I think it is good and pretty brave to put up the videos, i think alot of people will be a little afraid of this. But in the long term i think you will become better if people can help you with your game.

I think your block looks pretty okay, but maybe you need to try to do a harder placement against better players otherwise they will play very hard. I also think that the block is just as good as the long serve is or the return. If Samsonov made to slow long serves or to bad long return he will also have trouble blocking despite maybe having on of the best blocks in the world.

I do think it is good that you practice during the game what you have learned from the coach, but i still think you should try to practice tactics, playing style and trying to get the balls you want during practice games aswell. It will be difficult to start practicing it in real games. Technique is very important but it is fun to win games also, or atleast i think so haha so i think it is important to practice the just mention things also to have a greater possibility to win the games.

Have you played the sunday game or will you play it? How did it go? any footage of that would be fun!

Keep up the good work!
 
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As Waldner said, "Chinese make TT machines"

Korean is almost same. KOR/CHN training system, It looks like Lula's opinion in gereral.

But Asians Body and physical are diffent from other areas.

Endless Footwork & More Spin with Compact Swing,
and Speedy Play, are strength and purpose of KOR/CHN training system.
(Maybe Working Hard & Hard in Company, Input much time to work... same in KOR company)

I need to make a balance for Lula and Der_Echte. But it takes time to apply it in a rea match

For example, About 1 years ago,
I think that my strength is FH. I have no confidence for BH.

So in a real match, I used to use FH topspin only. Almost no BH Topspin, BH Punch.

But practice BH again & again. Training & Practice match with Coach.
Coach also asked me to use it more. Don't afraid the mistake. But think why you make a mistake.

It was my coach's method. So now, I know that my strength is BH than FH.
 
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Third, Back to Lula,

As you said, I'd like to think the playing style with current basic skill-up. Your advice is very crucial to me.
I have a job and Wife, Kid... also it's single income to my famliy. Furthermore This is South Korea.

It means that "It's very hard to make time to play TT"

Less Time, So I need the efficiency. With this circumstance, Your advice is very precious.
I love Waldner Play. So I'm very curious about Swendish TT. By your comment, I learned it a little bit.

Bitter Medicine, Sometimes I afraid, But for more high level,
I know that I have to overcome it.

Winning & Losing is also a big fun for TT,
I'd also like to feel a more sense of a accomplishment during the trainng and learning for TT.

TT is very difficult, so It's very interesting to me.

Thanks Lula and Der_Echte.

With the respect to you.

Best Regard
 
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I agree that if you have a hard time to get time to practice tabletennis it would be good that you practice stuff that you actually use in a game.

I do not think everyone in swedish tabletennis think like i do. We proably get affected alot by the coaches we have had as players. I had coaches that had alot of focus on having a playing style and practicing your strengths, and i think i have adapted that as a coach since i think it makes a lot of sense.

It is like choosing a career and what to work with. It is difficult to chose many different careers and become good at several things since we do not have enough time or the talenf for everything. And i think how you should play tabletennis is almost the same thing. We do not have the time and do not have talent for eveything so we should try focus what we are good at and spend the precious time practicing it.

Keep posting videos!
 
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Nchlsy is Korean style more in favor of growing fundamentals strong before going too far into match tactics and style.

I understand the way over there.

That is why I am not strongly suggesting he switch to maximizing chances for points right now.

I discuss it so Lula knows better why Nchlsy is why he is.

Personally, I am much like Lula that I would be for grooving play style and integration of skills to maximize chances for points. I am not gunna force it on Nchlsy I just mention it as a possible way.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
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I understand the comments like "you don't think when you play", guilty about that myself. But - I can totally see why this might be happening: all drills aimed at establishing basic technique, fundamentals etc. are trying to make sure that you are executing shots without thinking.

If main focus is on this, why are we surprised when during the point player can't think one step ahead? His reflexes are drilled into one thing and then a different ball arrives. And I suspect teaching how to analyze what happened and adjusting on the next point is rather different from multiball or even a single ball practice. Playing more matches will help (slowly...), but somehow coaches do not tend to teach this ("if you serve X, 80% chance ball will come here and you should do Y"), or may be I was unlucky.
 
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