Hungarian Open 2019

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

zeio said:
Zhou Yu updated his Weibo w/ an apology:

"I was in the men's singles match of the HTable Hungarian Open on January 17, 2019. I wanted to apply for a new racket due to rubber damage. However, due to the lack of understanding of the rules of the ITTF competition, I did not communicate with the referee. The tampering of the racket resulted in the cancellation of the qualification of the game. My misconduct violated the rules of the competition and adversely affected the international image of Chinese athletes. I deeply reflected on this matter and expressed the adverse effects on the matter. Apologize, to ensure that lessons are learned in future competitions, to take precautions, to study in depth and strictly abide by the rules of the competition to avoid such incidents."

If he didn't have a history of doing this, we would take this more straightforwardly. The suspension of the player and the coach speaks louder than anything he says.

jawien · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
This is what we need. I don't know why people tried to say it was not a deliberate action to his advantage earlier in the thread.

Ah ... debatable NextLevel. Sure the opponent has to adjust too, but in general I would say it causes more problem for the person changing the racket ...

Should it be punished, yes.

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

jawien said:
Ah ... debatable NextLevel. Sure the opponent has to adjust too, but in general I would say it causes more problem for the person changing the racket ...

Should it be punished, yes.

Debatable if you don't understand that you only want to change a racket if you don't feel you are playing well with it. It is not debatable at all.

Simas · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
If he didn't have a history of doing this, we would take this more straightforwardly.

Exactly!

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

Is it unfair to want to change the racket if it doesn't play well? If it's not the player who plays bad, but the particular racket? The only reason he'd wanna change is if it was glued poorly or if the rubber is of poor quality. You could say the player is responsible for gluing his rubbers properly but are we at a gluing contest or a table tennis competition? Just let him get the spare and get on with it. I don't see it as unfair at all as long as the replacement has the exact same blade and rubbers. You can't say that he's trying to get an advantage by getting the expected performance out of the equipment, as opposed to a subpar one. It would've been unfair if he changed to a newly boosted rubber or something. Or a different rubber to adjust his tactics. But that's not the case.

Moreover, it is not in ITTF's rules that the player must be banned for 3 months. I can only conclude that his suspension is CNT punishing him for a bad performance in the tournament, ultimately, which came in such an embarrassing fashion. That's the way I see it anyway.

Der_Echte · Jan 20, 2019

Atlas Newton,

You either stepped into an industrial sized pile of dog poop on this one, or the chems in your food are affecting your judgment.

3.4.2.4 A racket shall not be replaced during an individual match unless it is
accidentally damaged so badly that it cannot be used; if this happens the
damaged racket shall be replaced immediately by another which the player
has brought with him or her to the playing area or one which is handed to him
or her in the playing area.

What problem does ANYONE have with understanding the conditions in which you may replace a racket?

The umpire will decide and allow the replacement of a bat if the umpire is satisfied the conditions are met.

The player deliberately peeled off his rubber without showing the bat to the umpire to determine that the bad was damaged to the extent that it could not be legally used for the match. This is a no-shyt Sherlock unsportsman-like conduct by any measure.

Here is a link to the ITTF Handbook for Match Officials. One may also easily google and download it from other places.

https://0.tqn.com/z/g/tabletennis/library/Rules/HandbookMatchOfficials13_Aug2007.pdf

jawien · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
Debatable if you don't understand that you only want to change a racket if you don't feel you are playing well with it. It is not debatable at all.

Yeah but, will you play better with a racket you are not accustomed to? Atas has a very interesting point here:

Atas Newton said:
Is it unfair to want to change the racket if it doesn't play well? If it's not the player who plays bad, but the particular racket? The only reason he'd wanna change is if it was glued poorly or if the rubber is of poor quality. You could say the player is responsible for gluing his rubbers properly but are we at a gluing contest or a table tennis competition? Just let him get the spare and get on with it. I don't see it as unfair at all as long as the replacement has the exact same blade and rubbers. You can't say that he's trying to get an advantage by getting the expected performance out of the equipment, as opposed to a subpar one. It would've been unfair if he changed to a newly boosted rubber or something. Or a different rubber to adjust his tactics. But that's not the case.

Moreover, it is not in ITTF's rules that the player must be banned for 3 months. I can only conclude that his suspension is CNT punishing him for a bad performance in the tournament, ultimately, which came in such an embarrassing fashion. That's the way I see it anyway.

... to which I would subscribe but ... TT is a very technical sport, changing the racket affects the ball trajectory and it causes problems for the opponents. Besides, it is for sure Zhou's responsibility to choose the proper blade during the warm-up. He was hitting with it for probably an hour or so before the match ...

FruitLoop · Jan 20, 2019

drunix80 said:
Looks like FZD time at top was too short. Wang Chuqin seems to have what FZD never had - Consistency and Tactical play. As a matter of fact , none of the FZD's wins in this event were dominant. Not sure how he lost his mojo. May be Wang Hao's coaching is not working out !!

Lol a guy loses like two matches and he's done and his time at the top is over. FZD is going to be around for a long long time at the top.

Der_Echte · Jan 20, 2019

jawein and Atlas Newton,

I can totally understand a sentiment that the rules may have a possibility of needing to be changed for whatever reasons we feel there is a need. If the arguments are presented in that light, there could be an easy discussion.

The ITTF bylaws have a very well documented procedure to accomplish this.

As for whether we need to change the rules to allow a player to replace a bat in the middle of a match by his choice and judgment for any reason they choose... THINK about that one for a minute. THINK about what cans of worms you wanna open here. THINK about how this is getting a free timeout. THINK about how a player could cheat and be getting a bat with different properties. THINK about how this would be policed (or not) (and how that is another can of unfair worms opened). THINK about how many times a player can disrupt a match with this. THINK about how this takes away from playing the game.

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

jawien said:
Yeah but, will you play better with a racket you are not accustomed to? Atas has a very interesting point here:

... to which I would subscribe but ... TT is a very technical sport, changing the racket affects the ball trajectory and it causes problems for the opponents. Besides, it is for sure Zhou's responsibility to choose the proper blade during the warm-up. He was hitting with it for probably an hour or so before the match ...

What makes you think he is changing to a racket he isn't accustomed to? These are the kinds of assumptions that surprise me.

Timo Boll is using 6 set ups that are identical. You think he is going to switch to something he doesn't use?

It would be interesting to see whether Atas plays competitions. Sometimes players play with a different racket for a specific opponent or style and then change or complain when it is not working.

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

Der_Echte said:
jawein and Atlas Newton,

I can totally understand a sentiment that the rules may have a possibility of needing to be changed for whatever reasons we feel there is a need. If the arguments are presented in that light, there could be an easy discussion.

The ITTF bylaws have a very well documented procedure to accomplish this.

As for whether we need to change the rules to allow a player to replace a bat in the middle of a match by his choice and judgment for any reason they choose... THINK about that one for a minute. THINK about what cans of worms you wanna open here. THINK about how this is getting a free timeout. THINK about how a player could cheat and be getting a bat with different properties. THINK about how this would be policed (or not) (and how that is another can of unfair worms opened). THINK about how many times a player can disrupt a match with this. THINK about how this takes away from playing the game.

The rules actually used to permit this. Some people used to bring suitcases and change almost every point. In any case some people don't understand that you should not cheat. It is professional to make sure your equipment is up to snuff before the match.

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

Atas Newton said:
Is it unfair to want to change the racket if it doesn't play well? If it's not the player who plays bad, but the particular racket? The only reason he'd wanna change is if it was glued poorly or if the rubber is of poor quality. You could say the player is responsible for gluing his rubbers properly but are we at a gluing contest or a table tennis competition? Just let him get the spare and get on with it. I don't see it as unfair at all as long as the replacement has the exact same blade and rubbers. You can't say that he's trying to get an advantage by getting the expected performance out of the equipment, as opposed to a subpar one. It would've been unfair if he changed to a newly boosted rubber or something. Or a different rubber to adjust his tactics. But that's not the case.

Moreover, it is not in ITTF's rules that the player must be banned for 3 months. I can only conclude that his suspension is CNT punishing him for a bad performance in the tournament, ultimately, which came in such an embarrassing fashion. That's the way I see it anyway.

You are speaking quite frankly like someone who doesn't play table tennis. You mean you have never played a match where you were not happy with your equipment and how it played?

Der_Echte · Jan 20, 2019

NL, if that was the case, I would argue it was a good rule change.

We often have discussion threads on TT forums about rule changes.

My position is that TT is dynamic and should leave open the possibility of rule change if there is a clear reason and benefit.

Eliminating 2 color bats was a clear one. Eliminating the rule that the opponent would win the point, despite missing the table by a meter, but the ball hits opponent bat (or was it body too) a meter or a centimeter behind end line... that was a proper rule change too.

Some rule changes were influenced by chems or greed for monies.

The point being argued is about whether a player was righteously eliminated from competition, because of a rule violation... which the player clearly violated to an extent that made it a no-brainer decision to eliminate the player from the comp.

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

jawien said:
Yeah but, will you play better with a racket you are not accustomed to? Atas has a very interesting point here:

... to which I would subscribe but ... TT is a very technical sport, changing the racket affects the ball trajectory and it causes problems for the opponents. Besides, it is for sure Zhou's responsibility to choose the proper blade during the warm-up. He was hitting with it for probably an hour or so before the match ...

Again you should know that no matter what you are hitting with, you have to submit it for testing and inspection before and sometimes after the match.

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

Der_Echte, I don't know if it would be as bad as you describe. Changing the racket is one trip to the corner, no timeout there. Or to the judge, should they wanna change that. Change once per match obviously. Every racket including the spares is already checked before the match, I don't see how cheating with the replacement would be any different to just cheating period. The one extra rule we need is that the replacement must be the same as the first choice.

Anyway, what's clear is that Zhou Yu broke the rules. I was just arguing that he wasn't gonna get any advantage if he switched bats.

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
It would be interesting to see whether Atas plays competitions. Sometimes players play with a different racket for a specific opponent or style and then change or complain when it is not working.

I specifically said the replacement must be identical though. Of course you're not gonna change a 2.2mm inverted to long pips and expect the opponent to be ok with that. You think Zhou Yu was going to? There was no malicious intent, he was just sloppy with the rules.

Der_Echte · Jan 20, 2019

Atas Newton said:
Der_Echte, I don't know if it would be as bad as you describe. Changing the racket is one trip to the corner, no timeout there. Or to the judge, should they wanna change that. Change once per match obviously. Every racket including the spares is already checked before the match, I don't see how cheating with the replacement would be any different to just cheating period. The one extra rule we need is that the replacement must be the same as the first choice.

Anyway, what's clear is that Zhou Yu broke the rules. I was just arguing that he wasn't gonna get any advantage if he switched bats.

If you argue in that manner (a need to change rules) it is easier to debate.

I argue that placing what you suggest as a new rule would create many possibilities to manipulate the match. OK, the handle of the blade and the marking on the rubbers must be the same... but the bat can play like a totally different bat. It is very easy to soften a rubber or select a same blade that plays much differently.

So, a player could play a portion of the match, then adjust to equipment that suits the player's tactical advantage with the replacement bat.

That is the main reason I oppose such a rule change. Another reason is despite your argument that it takes practically no time to replace a bat, this will still require a stoppage of play and considerable time to ensure the bat is a proper replacement. Even if the umpire keeps the replacement bat under the umpire desk, it will still break continuous play to request the new bat, and get it issued and return to play.

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

Der_Echte said:
If you argue in that manner (a need to change rules) it is easier to debate.

I argue that placing what you suggest as a new rule would create many possibilities to manipulate the match. OK, the handle of the blade and the marking on the rubbers must be the same... but the bat can play like a totally different bat. It is very easy to soften a rubber or select a same blade that plays much differently.

So, a player could play a portion of the match, then adjust to equipment that suits the player's tactical advantage with the replacement bat.

scummy tactic and, as such, is available under current rules. Can't you just dig into the table on a push harder than usual? Or 'accidentally' catch a corner of the table on a half-long serve and that's all it takes, the rubber's damaged. People gotta have some kinda sportsmanship and dignity if they're not doing it now.

Der_Echte said:
Even if the umpire keeps the replacement bat under the umpire desk, it will still break continuous play to request the new bat, and get it issued and return to play.

Chen Meng wastes more time between each point than it would take to change rackets

Before they start using a serve timer like in tennis people will break the rhythm without any bat replacements.

Sali · Jan 20, 2019

It is easier then most of you think. For ZY it was probably one of ZY last chances in international stage, he never achieved anything spectacular and lost many times to foreigners. He was loosing and had no idea what to do. He was taking a lot od time with the serve to break the confidence of chuang. Trying to change racket was exactly the same. Funny thing is that after last set he was examining his racket very carrefuly...

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

Atas Newton said:
I specifically said the replacement must be identical though. Of course you're not gonna change a 2.2mm inverted to long pips and expect the opponent to be ok with that. You think Zhou Yu was going to? There was no malicious intent, he was just sloppy with the rules.

But it is not done you to determine that. You have no clue whether his rubber was playing faster or slower or his blade was playing faster or slower. Sometimes players adjust their rackets for specific opponents. You act as if pros don't look for advantages in their equipments. They do.

Hungarian Open 2019

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads