Hungarian Open 2019

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

Der_Echte said:
If you argue in that manner (a need to change rules) it is easier to debate.

I argue that placing what you suggest as a new rule would create many possibilities to manipulate the match. OK, the handle of the blade and the marking on the rubbers must be the same... but the bat can play like a totally different bat. It is very easy to soften a rubber or select a same blade that plays much differently.

So, a player could play a portion of the match, then adjust to equipment that suits the player's tactical advantage with the replacement bat.

That is the main reason I oppose such a rule change. Another reason is despite your argument that it takes practically no time to replace a bat, this will still require a stoppage of play and considerable time to ensure the bat is a proper replacement. Even if the umpire keeps the replacement bat under the umpire desk, it will still break continuous play to request the new bat, and get it issued and return to play.

DE,

Honestly, Atas writes about equipment and player mindset like someone who has never played table tennis but just understands what people generally say about it.

Maybe Chuang spin is bothering him and he wants to use a deader racket like he has in his spare. How do you know? Unless he has a good reason he must use what he already used!

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
But it is not done you to determine that. You have no clue whether his rubber was playing faster or slower or his blade was playing faster or slower. Sometimes players adjust their rackets for specific opponents. You act as if pros don't look for advantages in their equipments. They do.

how much faster or slower can the same exact model of a rubber/blade play? We're talking 3-5% max, otherwise DHS quality control is rubbish. If you rewatch the match you'll see he hit a couple loops into the net and looked at his FH rubber. It wasn't even that bad, it was a close match and a 2-3 game score. He just felt the rubber wasn't doing what it was supposed to, that's all. You're reading too much into this.

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
DE,

Honestly, Atas writes about equipment and player mindset like someone who has never played table tennis but just understands what people generally say about it.

Maybe Chuang spin is bothering him and he wants to use a deader racket like he has in his spare. How do you know? Unless he has a good reason he must use what he already used!

sure dude. I've never played a game of table tennis in my life and know nothing about it and just pretend I do.

NextLevel said:
Maybe Chuang spin is bothering him and he wants to use a deader racket like he has in his spare. How do you know?

like, by watching the match? His body language? I'll ask you this, you think having a dead spare is a potent tactic. First, when the hell do you ever see it used? When's the last time you've seen a racket replaced? Second, suppose you DO get your first rubber damaged. You think it's a bright idea to have a replacement that's significantly different? Who's screwed then, your opponent or you? Jeez, let go of the conspiracies.

NextLevel · Jan 20, 2019

Atas Newton said:
how much faster or slower can the same exact model of a rubber/blade play? We're talking 3-5% max, otherwise DHS quality control is rubbish. If you rewatch the match you'll see he hit a couple loops into the net and looked at his FH rubber. It wasn't even that bad, it was a close match and a 2-3 game score. He just felt the rubber wasn't doing what it was supposed to, that's all. You're reading too much into this.

Then in that case why don't we all just use exactly the dame equipment and stop letting everyone pick their own blades etc?

I will let you have the last word. You keep writing like someone who hasn't discussed these things with good players.

Atas Newton · Jan 20, 2019

NextLevel said:
Then in that case why don't we all just use exactly the dame equipment and stop letting everyone pick their own blades etc?

what? Who are you arguing with? I'm saying let the dude change the racket for the exact same one. What's it have to do with what bats anyone else uses?

JesperStef · Jan 20, 2019

Results from Day 6 (Sun 20 January 2019)

Men's Singles

Semi-finals:

Wang Chuqin 4:3 Fan Zhendong [1] (7:11, 11:7, 13:11, 5:11, 12:10, 3:11, 11:9)
[3] Lin Gaoyuan 4:0 Xu Xin [2] (14:12, 11:9, 11:6, 11:9)

Final:

[3] Lin Gaoyuan 4:0 Wang Chuqin (13:11, 12:10, 11:8, 11:9)

Women's Singles

Final:

[2] Chen Meng 4:2 Zhu Yuling [1] (9:11, 11:7, 11:13, 13:11, 11:4, 11:5)

Source: https://www.ittf.com/tournament/2953/2019/2019-ittf-world-tour-hungarian-open/

Der_Echte · Jan 20, 2019

Atlas said:
Chen Meng wastes more time between each point than it would take to change rackets Before they start using a serve timer like in tennis people will break the rhythm without any bat replacements.

I believe that is a very good rule change proposal at the pro level. Many pros abuse the "continuous play" spirit and letter of the rule.

Der_Echte · Jan 20, 2019

Atas Newton said:
how much faster or slower can the same exact model of a rubber/blade play? We're talking 3-5% max, otherwise DHS quality control is rubbish. If you rewatch the match you'll see he hit a couple loops into the net and looked at his FH rubber. It wasn't even that bad, it was a close match and a 2-3 game score. He just felt the rubber wasn't doing what it was supposed to, that's all. You're reading too much into this.

Atlas (and any TTD member reading)

Yesterday, at our local club, TTD member ERM (who knows more about equipment that every forum member put together) gifted me TWO I say again TWO Stiga Intensity Carbon blades with rubbers on them. (one was his backup). One blade was 84 grams and one was 88 grams. They played starkly different. 88 gram blade is more offensive and much more suited to my swing timing.

If I had the ability to switch bats at will, I would instantly have the ability to lay a totally different bat, which might be MUCH more suitable to execute a set of tactics I discover mid-match.

We should not encourage this with a rule change allowing bat changes at will. If a player feels his bat is not assembled or performing properly, there was PLENTY of time to figure that out BEFORE the match.

Anyone thinking pros and their support staff do not look for and invent every possible advantage are GULLIBLE people. Pros and their staff will certainly look to exploit any possible advantage. It is a part of competing better that your opponent and staff. Failing to seek and exploit every possible advantage will put you at a disadvantage. Pros do NOT like playing at a disadvantage.

Ilia Minkin · Jan 20, 2019

Atas Newton said:
how much faster or slower can the same exact model of a rubber/blade play? We're talking 3-5% max, otherwise DHS quality control is rubbish. If you rewatch the match you'll see he hit a couple loops into the net and looked at his FH rubber. It wasn't even that bad, it was a close match and a 2-3 game score. He just felt the rubber wasn't doing what it was supposed to, that's all. You're reading too much into this.

Pros boost the hell out of their rubbers, especially the ones using H3, and there is probably some Voodoo magic involved in the process. He could have easily over/under-boosted his main racket, realized it did not work well, and then tried to grab the spare one.

Chang · Jan 20, 2019

Don´t want to go deep into discussion, but once I read somewhere that at World Cup 2008 I think, when Ma Long lost to Timo Boll, he didn´t have properly boosted rubber, so that was the cause of his loss. Can not imagine how much this affects the pro´s actual play since I am not professional myself and my feeling of the racket considers only, "it is too fast, it is too slow, it does not make spin", but I could trust this, and the very same reason, or similar, could have happened there. Many players there can confirm, that exact same rackets, does not play the same and I´ve heard that many times from people I play with or meet. Some are playing with 4 times broken blade, because they could´t find same good like the previous.
Cheers

langel · Jan 20, 2019

Ilia Minkin said:
Pros boost the hell out of their rubbers, especially the ones using H3, and there is probably some Voodoo magic involved in the process. He could have easily over/under-boosted his main racket, realized it did not work well, and then tried to grab the spare one.

Chinese National team Players don't boost rubbers themselves. They receive their rubbers preboosted.

RidTheKid · Jan 20, 2019

In todays game perhaps, not long ago a video surfaced where Ma Lin were boosting with seamoon. And yes I saw the video where the annoying chinese reporter went through Ma Longs stuff and his rubbers come in a plastic box probably boosted at DHS.

langel said:
Chinese National team Players don't boost rubbers themselves. They receive their rubbers preboosted.

Konrad Bak · Jan 20, 2019

english is not my best language but I saw whats happened between Zhou mind and equipment...
He had overboosted rubber and he was confused when he used his forhand. The same situation was with Ma long and Harimoto.
Ma long propably the best technique player cant Put more spin on his backhand so Harimoto easily won.

NextLevel · Jan 21, 2019

langel said:
Chinese National team Players don't boost rubbers themselves. They receive their rubbers preboosted.

That doesn't mean that each player can't mess with his rubbers.

NextLevel · Jan 21, 2019

Der_Echte said:
Atlas (and any TTD member reading)

Yesterday, at our local club, TTD member ERM (who knows more about equipment that every forum member put together) gifted me TWO I say again TWO Stiga Intensity Carbon blades with rubbers on them. (one was his backup). One blade was 84 grams and one was 88 grams. They played starkly different. 88 gram blade is more offensive and much more suited to my swing timing.

If I had the ability to switch bats at will, I would instantly have the ability to lay a totally different bat, which might be MUCH more suitable to execute a set of tactics I discover mid-match.

We should not encourage this with a rule change allowing bat changes at will. If a player feels his bat is not assembled or performing properly, there was PLENTY of time to figure that out BEFORE the match.

Anyone thinking pros and their support staff do not look for and invent every possible advantage are GULLIBLE people. Pros and their staff will certainly look to exploit any possible advantage. It is a part of competing better that your opponent and staff. Failing to seek and exploit every possible advantage will put you at a disadvantage. Pros do NOT like playing at a disadvantage.

I don't know why we are even seriously arguing any of this. I can't remember who told me that Zhang Jike used to test his 4 Viscarias on almost any given day and play with the one he liked the best that day. And in the end, even if it is all in the head of the pro, there is no need to let them cheat. Maybe one blade is fresh and the other is broken in and the pro has to make a choice based on how he feels at that second. Then during the match, he regrets his choice of the fresh one because it feels too fast and starts blaming his misses on it. He wants to go to the slower one but... the rules don't allow it!

So EFF that and ruin the racket when people can't see and then ask to change it.

But no, we should let him because he can't be trying to gain an advantage by changing racket...

In fact, I have seen people who got away with changing rackets during matches completely mess up their opponents as the brain struggles to adjust to faster blocks etc.

drunix80 · Jan 21, 2019

FruitLoop said:
Lol a guy loses like two matches and he's done and his time at the top is over. FZD is going to be around for a long long time at the top.

If FZD was from Germany or Belarus, your argument would hold good. But in CNT he cant go on with sub par performances. Plus time at the top meant being #1 .

NextLevel · Jan 21, 2019

Atas Newton said:
what? Who are you arguing with? I'm saying let the dude change the racket for the exact same one. What's it have to do with what bats anyone else uses?

I think DE answered you. The idea that two racket play exactly the same just because they look exactly the same is a denial of wood and sponge hardness variability. And like I explained, pros do things to their rackets to optimize them for specific situations. If Dima is playing say Joo or Gionis, he will use a different racket from the one he would use play Boll or Ma Long. He has said as much himself that he was using a racket optimized for his playing defenders when he played Joo. Experienced players know that there are variations in rubbers and blades even when they supposed to look and weigh the same. We just ignore it for practical purposes.

langel · Jan 21, 2019

NextLevel said:
That doesn't mean that each player can't mess with his rubbers.

Of course, but I'm pretty sure that they don't, for two reasons - they just don't have to do it, and - even if they really decide to do it, they would never achieve neither the same effect, nor its consistancy.

Loopadoop · Jan 21, 2019

drunix80 said:
If FZD was from Germany or Belarus, your argument would hold good. But in CNT he cant go on with sub par performances. Plus time at the top meant being #1 .

We don't know how much of the CNT is affected by the team concept which takes into account the current rankings and future projections.

langel · Jan 21, 2019

RidTheKid said:
In todays game perhaps, not long ago a video surfaced where Ma Lin were boosting with seamoon. And yes I saw the video where the annoying chinese reporter went through Ma Longs stuff and his rubbers come in a plastic box probably boosted at DHS.

Personal DHS rubbers for the chinese players come personally pretuned differently for the person. Besides that /maybe not for everyone and maybe not always/ they are not only pretuned, but somewhat preglued - I've seen Ma Long taking out a sealed sheet of rubber, aplaying very fast something just like to moisten it and immediately fixing it on the blade.

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