Technique to counterloop opening loops against backspin

Use the elbow as an axis and don't extend the arm. A very short snapping motion is enough.

I know you've been extending your arm. Or at least, that's what I guessed because that's the most common mistake

Trying some slower rubbers might help too.
I am near the same ranking I guess, maybe a lil bit higher, from vids I've seen and using so fast rubbers make me send the ball far. That's why I changed from elp and els to aurus some months ago and now to g-1 and now I don't have such problems.

Edit: I'm extending the arm too, so I may be out of topic.

So if I'm understanding correctly. When the ball has backspin and they open up, you can block that ball back but if you actively try to counter loop it back, it tends to go long.

This is one of those shots that I'm sure a lot of people will have different opinions on as we all have different strengths so I can only comment from my own experience.

I particularly like facing backspin for me to loop. That's my strength. Some time back I felt my counter looping vs topspin wasn't nearly as strong as I had gotten use to the motion of looping backspin. I get that setup a lot with my serve & 3rd ball setup.

I decided that for me it's best not to try to loop that ball (talking about someone's loop off backspin which will be coming in with a TON of topspin) but rather counter drive it, very flat, drivey swing vs looping it where my motion tends to pick up the ball a lot. Ever since I've made that adjustment, my percentage on those shots have gotten better.

But I tend to think of someone's open up on backspin to me the same as returning someone's power loop. In either shot, you know you have more to deal with. Either it be increased spin or speed & power. Verse those shots, it's probably not wise for me to all out counter loop right back. For others it would be. But for me, I just try to neutralize and either block or drive back with placement and look to get off on the next shot more if I have the opportunity.

I can't search & post the video here at work but there was a highlight shot Harimoto had vs Dima this last year where Dima smoked this loop, Harimoto was close to the table and he very much drove or slap shot it cross-court for a winner. I don't recall seeing so many punch or slap type shots before the insertion of the plastic ball. Maybe they were around but this very much drive type shot in certain situations is useful to have.

Hope some of this helps.

I have a game close to the table

1) it can be a timing problem. Do not rush, the attacking loop has already speed, if you counterloop it you will already surprise the opponent. So focus not on power at all but on timing and just putting the ball back on the table. Its easy to get carried away and swing too early

2) You need only a short stroke, start with the racket high and nearly horizontal, and the more your knees are bent and your body is low (and upper body leaning forward) with a good balance, the easier it is

3) stay relaxed

4) get in position. Be careful with the incoming sidespin, thats usually where one gets fooled.

How much do you really need this shot? i feel that you level is not crazy high so your playing partners proably do not loop extremely hard. I think you can come really far with a good placed block, so they need to move and they will proably stand wrong and will have a hard time to loop well. And if your opponents can play hard, it is proably very hard to do since they do not have the place in your training hall. Very hard to loop hard close to the table. And you could also consider playing more short and open first yourself if your block is bad. But if your opponents is not very well maybe they do not do very good first opening loops and this would be a excellent shot to learn and do.

In my experience one big problem is that peole just do a passive block or a big hard swing, while it is proably better alot of time to something in between that is much more safe and your oppent will then come under pressure and loop bad and eventually you can kill the ball. It is also not necessary to do a big swing because you borrow speed and spin from the opponent och the ball will still be fast. But i do not agree with the above that you need to only use your forearm and have the elbow as an axis. This is very true for the backhand, but i think for looping against a loop with backhand or forehand it will work okay if you just think that you are going to need a pretty small motion.

try thinking of this:

Wait for the ball and let the ball be on the racket before you swing: if you swing back and there will be a big space between the ball and your racket this will be way to unsafe, especially if the other person is looping at you.

Do not go for a crazy big hard swing: Borrow the speed and spin and just go over the ball a little. will proably be fast since it is speed in the ball already. And wait for a better opportunity to kill the ball.

How you will do also depends on your return.

If you push backspin long they will proably get more spin in the ball since they have alot to work with and only very good players can loop hard on this ball. So you will get a soft ball with proably alot of topspin. Then i think you have two options. Have a closed racket angle, do the things mention in the beginning and try to have long contact with the ball. Since it is already spin in the ball you do not need to accelerate and create own spin so you can do a pretty slow motion and try to have as long contact with the ball as possible. Longer contact always equal more control. You could also have an open racket angle and flathit the ball. This is only possible if there is spin in their loop. This shot is proably alot easier with the backhand compared to the forehand.

If you push short halflong ball, so it drops just next to the table they will proably loop a little higher loop, since the ball drops down a little. I think you have the same options here as the long backspin return.

If you push nospin, they will proably loop harder with less spin. Then you also need to do the things mention in the beginning, but here you need to accelerate more when you loop back because there is less spin in the ball. If you do not the ball will go down in the net. But if they manage to loop hard you proably do not have the time to do a big swing.

If you notice that they always loop soft and perhaps a little high, so you have the time to loop harder back you need to take a step back to have the room to use the body a little more and loop hard. You could proably flat hit alot aswell if they do this shot.

You can really only loop back if you have the time. if you do not have the time beacuse they play hard or to fast you can only block. You proably will have the best possibilities to loop back if you push long with backspin or halflong so they loop soft with topspin.

Good luck!

Study what Lula wrote carefully. I can't write much more than that.

I also forget to mention that i think it would be wise to try to find a place to train with a little bigger room/space.

It must be really hard to learn to loop with the body if you are of a normal heigth and nearly impossible if you are taller than that. Close to the table it is hard to loop with the body since you do not have the space to do it. I also think it will be hard to learn to loop harder when you get an easier ball, since it is important to be able to step out and have room to use the body.

It would be interesting to watch you guys play, everyone must play almost the same and really fast since you are so close to the table.

How much do you really need this shot?

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Question of the month. Hands. Down. USATT 1600 adult learner has as much need for that shot as an adult needs a Viking Mace to clean out their large colon after finishing business in restroom. 2000 USATT level adults rarely use that shot... 1600 USATT level players have a lot of bigger catfish to skin and fry. (I hope I pushed the buttons of U animal lovers) (Catfish were meant to be caught, skinned, and eaten)

Still... it is a free country and players are free to play how they want when the want where they want (if they can find a club) Another angle is it might be a good idea to start learning the shot for strategic reasons down the road... being able to do that will give a player a good tendency to counter-attack, which is a damned good thing to have at a much higher level.

If the OP is desiring to DEVELOP this shot for the benefit of their FUTURE... I can see the usefulness. If the OP wants to learn and start using this shot RIGHT NOW... I dunno.

One Thing I could say as a compromise and progressive first step is to...

- Take a tiny step back, maybe 1/2 step... no more.
- Keep shoulder, arm, wrist, and grip LOOSE... bend arm some
- Use VERY SHORT swing... Very short backswing with bat up... cover the ball... use a direct path to ball... wait for ball to come to impact zone. If opponent is looping extreme shallow, stay at table and wait for ball to kick to you
- Use LOOSE grip at impact and do not go for much power at all

This primarily will get you to get used to the timing of the ball and your impact zone. You need to get these right before you can do the shot with any power. The loose grip will help control incoming spin as well as a short go through the ball. As your timing gets better, you can later firm up at impact and use more whip.

Wait for the ball and let the ball be on the racket before you swing: if you swing back and there will be a big space between the ball and your racket this will be way to unsafe, especially if the other person is looping at you.

Do not go for a crazy big hard swing: Borrow the speed and spin and just go over the ball a little. will probably be fast since it is speed in the ball already. And wait for a better opportunity to kill the ball.

How you will do also depends on your return

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I am also favoring a progressive approach isolating and focusing on important components.. then adding more as time goes by.

If you push short half long ball, so it drops just next to the table they will probably loop a little higher loop, since the ball drops down a little. I think you have the same options here as the long backspin return.

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Lula, most 1600 USATT players are many levels away from having any kind of short touch or control over the length of a push. It is more profitable to vary the spin and direction of their push at that level for variation to break rhythm. Maybe good to start practicing that for strategic development for later performance.

Okay! It is hard for me to know the level the players have using the US rating system since i am not so familiar with it.

Turdytree! Try posting a video and it will proably be easier for us to help you to learn this stroke. I also think, like you said it would be good watching other players doing the stroke.

You don't need to think of or do anything other than to rotate your elbow to hit the ball.
Walls of text won't help u.

Do it without any complications and your shot will work.

Lightzy said:

You don't need to think of or do anything other than to rotate your elbow to hit the ball.
Walls of text won't help u.

Do it without any complications and your shot will work.

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I think you are making it a little easier than it really is. You always need to move your arm to be able to hit the ball, so i do not know how much that tip will help. But everyone focus on different things and maybe i am making it harder than it is.

A shorter tip, without a wall of text would be, wait for the ball so it is as close as possible to your racket and try to read the spin.

I think it could be good to make things easier like you said, but i also think a wall of text could help some, so they can try different things and then choose what they think works best for them.

Lula said:

I think you are making it a little easier than it really is. You always need to move your arm to be able to hit the ball, so i do not know how much that tip will help. But everyone focus on different things and maybe i am making it harder than it is.

A shorter tip, without a wall of text would be, wait for the ball so it is as close as possible to your racket and try to read the spin.

I think it could be good to make things easier like you said, but i also think a wall of text could help some, so they can try different things and then choose what they think works best for them.

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Lightzy and Lula are both correct. Both techniques will work. But Lightzy's gives more potential for tendinitis of the elbow. Most TT coaches (actually all TT coaches I've seen/worked with/spoken to, I just try not to speak in absolutes) will teach Lula's method. It's easy to learn because it's built off of a block, slowly adding power with body rotation and wrist/arm movement and keeping in mind the use of the sponge to "guide" the ball.

Regarding the different skills players possess/need at different levels of play, I don't think I agree with sweeping generalizations. Some people just naturally learn things better. My brother-in-law could counterloop with 1800 USATT players when his rating was barely 1000 because he couldn't serve or play over the table well. I play in the 1200-1600 group at my league and see counterloops way more often than you would think. I can push well and control whether I push long or short, but have other gaps in my game that keep me at the level I am at. We need to develop the tools that fit our game, and that's different for a lot of people. Especially adult learners.

thekleifheit13 said:

Lightzy and Lula are both correct. Both techniques will work. But Lightzy's gives more potential for tendinitis of the elbow. Most TT coaches (actually all TT coaches I've seen/worked with/spoken to, I just try not to speak in absolutes) will teach Lula's method. It's easy to learn because it's built off of a block, slowly adding power with body rotation and wrist/arm movement and keeping in mind the use of the sponge to "guide" the ball.

Regarding the different skills players possess/need at different levels of play, I don't think I agree with sweeping generalizations. Some people just naturally learn things better. My brother-in-law could counterloop with 1800 USATT players when his rating was barely 1000 because he couldn't serve or play over the table well. I play in the 1200-1600 group at my league and see counterloops way more often than you would think. I can push well and control whether I push long or short, but have other gaps in my game that keep me at the level I am at. We need to develop the tools that fit our game, and that's different for a lot of people. Especially adult learners.

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You make a point but you overstate it. What an 1800 player calls a counterloop is not always what a 2200 player calls a counterloop. Video is often a good test but descriptions sometimes hide reality.

NextLevel said:

You make a point but you overstate it. What an 1800 player calls a counterloop is not always what a 2200 player calls a counterloop. Video is often a good test but descriptions sometimes hide reality.

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I would be willing to concede that it was closer to a drive (Tenergy drives vs spinny loops are spinny-ish by default) but there was consistency and power. I was more just trying to make my point by using a pretty extreme example of singular skill disparity in relation to overall level.

Just drive the ball to where you like. like a normal 'drive'. You can also try to smash the ball (that is what I do) but then be prepared for a very fast return.