Is double inverted the most viable setup to play?

tropical · Jan 25, 2019

NextLevel said:
Much harder to do what? Each rubber makes it easier to do some things and harder to do others.

I am sure you have never tried these rubbers. I used to think exactly like you but completely changed my mind after I tried LP.

I will try to list all the reasons as followings for players 1900-2000 like me.

1. LP/Anti is not natural to use. It confuses opponents but it also confuses the user. A push is under spin and a loop is top spin for inverted but is is reversed and easier to miss or create more errors with LP user.
2. Lack of resources. You can't argue this fact! Instruction videos on Youtube on inverted probably 5 up to 20X:1 ration (well I just guess, correct me if I am wrong). Strategy, footwork, strokes, etc. are all for inverted.
3. Lack of people to practice with. This is also for sure. In my club there are only ~5 LP/anti players and ~>200 inverted. Also not many people want to practice with you. They want you to play so they figure out how to play LP players but not the other way around. I find it difficult to have a partner who is willing to let me try different shots/techniques.
4. Some shots are extremely difficult to play with LP while so easy to do with inverted; for example floating ball without much speed.
5. Because the returning ball is so slow LP/anti player basically a sitting duck waiting for the next kill shot. To avoid it, LP/anti player must position the ball well and doing so will cause more errors.

I use LP now LP because like I said I do not have the quickness I used to have. A strong BH flip with fast block/return to the FH forces me to scramble hard. You can say because I have a weakness in footwork but I know for sure I used to be able to run for that shot before I was 60. So LP/anti slow it down a bit for me to get in position ready for the next shot.

It only took me 1 year to learn how to use inverted BH/FH. But it takes >4 years to learn the LP and I am still frustrated. I know I cause soem people trouble but I do not feel like I have complete control of my game.

NextLevel · Jan 25, 2019

LordPippington said:
But, how many flat foots have you seen using pips or anti, where you saw them and thought... wow, if only they had stuck to double inverted they'd be so much better!

The people who are using them to cover a "weakness" probably wouldn't have gotten very far anyway.

Let's say they cant block very well or return serves while using inverted... so they swap to lp or anti and all of a sudden, they no longer lose easy points on serve or have their blocks go flying out. I just dont consider it covering a "weakness" because nowhere is it written that you must use grippy inverted to be good. You might be weak with inverted, but if that is solved by using lp... it's just another part of the game.

Would you call someone who cant block with anti or lp, a weak player? Even if they're very skilled with grippy inverted? Rubberism! Why are they only considered weak if they cant use the inverted? Nobody criticizes anyone for sucking with lp if they normally play double inverted lol

I think the framing of the question shows a misunderstanding of what the issue is - how far a player with a weakness, which is usually relative, can be pretty far. Let's say someone uses inverted on both forehand and backhand and is losing a lot of matches. He switches to pips on backhand and inverted on forehand and basically loses most of this offensive capability on his backhand but creates a ball that people cannot read on the backhand as well. The point is that he still leaves his backhand a weaker side but just makes it less of an issue vs people who cannot play pips. I have seen 2500 players who are trained with inverted but get harassed by players at their level switch to pips just to add a different look. You can still see that the backhand is a weakness, but at least, they hope that their flatter blocks give the opponent more trouble. Because if they used inverted, their spin limitations would be easier to expose and they find passive play with inverted much harder.

These are not the usual cases and we would like to hope that such players ultimately optimize their pips play to a level where you truly believe they are not hiding their inability to play with inverted. But sometimes, it comes across as blatantly obvious that their game is limited and that their technique is not optimal even with any material, but that pips just make that side less of a liability for some situations. They just want the change-up.

NextLevel · Jan 25, 2019

tropical said:
I am sure you have never tried these rubbers. I used to think exactly like you but completely changed my mind after I tried LP.

I will try to list all the reasons as followings for players 1900-2000 like me.

1. LP/Anti is not natural to use. It confuses opponents but it also confuses the user. A push is under spin and a loop is top spin for inverted but is is reversed and easier to miss or create more errors with LP user.
2. Lack of resources. You can't argue this fact! Instruction videos on Youtube on inverted probably 5 up to 20X:1 ration (well I just guess, correct me if I am wrong). Strategy, footwork, strokes, etc. are all for inverted.
3. Lack of people to practice with. This is also for sure. In my club there are only ~5 LP/anti players and ~>200 inverted. Also not many people want to practice with you. They want you to play so they figure out how to play LP players but not the other way around. I find it difficult to have a partner who is willing to let me try different shots/techniques.
4. Some shots are extremely difficult to play with LP while so easy to do with inverted; for example floating ball without much speed.
5. Because the returning ball is so slow LP/anti player basically a sitting duck waiting for the next kill shot. To avoid it, LP/anti player must position the ball well and doing so will cause more errors.

I use LP now LP because like I said I do not have the quickness I used to have. A strong BH flip with fast block/return to the FH forces me to scramble hard. You can say because I have a weakness in footwork but I know for sure I used to be able to run for that shot before I was 60. So LP/anti slow it down a bit for me to get in position ready for the next shot.

It only took me 1 year to learn how to use inverted BH/FH. But it takes >4 years to learn the LP and I am still frustrated. I know I cause soem people trouble but I do not feel like I have complete control of my game.

I have actually used them. To use LP especially at a skillful level takes practice and time but it is not *much* harder than inverted depending on what you are trying to do. Getting to a very high level is what is really hard. That inverted has serious advantages is just the nature of table tennis.

Then again, I live in the pips capital of the US.

yoass · Jan 25, 2019

Hope I gave no offense by my “masking a weakness” remark…

I am actually very grateful to the LP/SP/anti players I practice with, and enjoy that a lot. It’s challenging, and I think it forced me to improve my observation skills in pace change and spin reading.

And yes, I suspect I fall prey to rubberism in assuming a dominant frame of reference. That being said, I think turning the table and making using the properties of their gear against material players is all in the game. “Strength is weakness”! (Tnx, Eric Arthur)

tropical · Jan 25, 2019

I have actually used them. To use LP especially at a skillful level takes practice and time but it is not *much* harder than inverted depending on what you are trying to do. Getting to a very high level is what is really hard. That inverted has serious advantages is just the nature of table tennis.

To me it is much harder but it may not be for you. It is very true that inverted has serious advantage in tt. I just wish I could use inverted again if I were younger and tennis elbow doesn't bother me. LP helps resolve the tennis elbow (due to BH topspin motion put a lot of stress on the elbow) and slowing down the game allows me to play longer.

Lula · Jan 25, 2019

I have been a part time coach for kids for a long time. I also know somewhat much about pimples so i think if one of my players could play good with pimples we could try it. But many of my players are not good enough and need to work on their technique. I do not want to put long pimple or short pimple on someone right now cause they need to further develop their strokes. I think all players should be able to do all the basic strokes pretty well before they try pimples. I also think we need to work on their strokes to see if they could get in example a great forehandloop with alot of topspin before we put short pimple on their forehand because they at the moment have a pretty flat forehand topspin with not much spin. What i mean is that we first need to work on the technique and then give it time to see how it works out. And then if they in example still have a flat loop after a long time of practicing we could try short pimple or if they in example play very far from the table and still can not hold the table after a long time of practice maybe they should be a defender.

I do hesitate to put short pimple on their racket, or to put long pimple on their backhand to make them a defender since these playing styles is very difficult and it is often harder to become good with these compared to inverted in my opinion. But i do think it is easier to become good with long pimple close to the table, so i maybe should encourage that more. But i also think this game of style is vulnerable since the opponent is somewhat deciding what you could do. So i am not sure really.

I do have a hard time with people that put on pips before they can do every basic shot pretty okay, that i would say is like covering a weakness because they do not have the patience to learn the strokes first and give them a chance to become good. Like middle aged men, that have played for like two years and put on long pimple to block close to the table because they can not play backhand. Or they basically start to use it since people have a hard time against it and that is why they win more.

It is hard to discuss this. I think everyone should play exactly as they want, and i really like that people is using pimples. Is it very fun to watch different playing styles compared to all the loop loop today. And i think it is hard to say that you are covering a weakness if you start with pimples. Everyone should try to develop their playing style after what they are naturally good at, and if that is using pimples then do it. But like i tried to explain in the beginning, i think everyone should be able to do all the basic shots before starting with pimples and try to become better at their "weakness" before chaning equipment. I think it is smarter to try to focus more on your strengths and try to put on pimples to make them even better. I have a player that smash really well, and he win alot with it, so i should not consider it a weakness that he can not loop with spin but maybe more that it is his strenght and try to making it even better by changing his quipment to short pimple on the forehand. So maybe all this talk about covering weakness is totally wrong, and the people that are using pimples are actually making their strenghts better.

LordPippington · Jan 25, 2019

I would say it like this... I know people who cannot read spin and so they swap to anti. They still can't read spin! But they can keep the ball on the table much more often and neutralize the effectiveness of spin against them.

Still, I can alter my serves and such to get what i want, and they dont make any changes to their strokes. To me, that is a weakness in their game that is helped by the anti.

On the same token, I know inverted players who let the ball drop off the table and try to lob the serves back every time because they cant read the spin. This is their way of dealing with it. Both players reach a wall in level fairly quickly, regardless of rubber type. Though to me that is a general weakness, not one related to junk rubbers only.

For instance, not to pick on pushblocker, but I think many have seen that old video of him playing against cory elder I believe. Where cory does those really high bouncing serves, and
Pb a player over 2000, could not handle them! Whereas even a beginner could probably smash back 60% of them.

Just as they could handle loops and hits from players over 2000, push blocker was able to confound them by blocking with the long pips. So they had a general weakness in reading spin there etc. Just as he had a general weakness in attacking. Their rubbers weren't the problem, only their skillsets.

Anybody can find ways to hide weaknesses -- those get exploited rather soon by experienced players, and then you're dead in the water

mart1nandersson · Jan 25, 2019

Lula said:
I have been a part time coach for kids for a long time. I also know somewhat much about pimples so i think if one of my players could play good with pimples we could try it. But many of my players are not good enough and need to work on their technique. I do not want to put long pimple or short pimple on someone right now cause they need to further develop their strokes. I think all players should be able to do all the basic strokes pretty well before they try pimples. I also think we need to work on their strokes to see if they could get in example a great forehandloop with alot of topspin before we put short pimple on their forehand because they at the moment have a pretty flat forehand topspin with not much spin. What i mean is that we first need to work on the technique and then give it time to see how it works out. And then if they in example still have a flat loop after a long time of practicing we could try short pimple or if they in example play very far from the table and still can not hold the table after a long time of practice maybe they should be a defender.

I do hesitate to put short pimple on their racket, or to put long pimple on their backhand to make them a defender since these playing styles is very difficult and it is often harder to become good with these compared to inverted in my opinion. But i do think it is easier to become good with long pimple close to the table, so i maybe should encourage that more. But i also think this game of style is vulnerable since the opponent is somewhat deciding what you could do. So i am not sure really.

I do have a hard time with people that put on pips before they can do every basic shot pretty okay, that i would say is like covering a weakness because they do not have the patience to learn the strokes first and give them a chance to become good. Like middle aged men, that have played for like two years and put on long pimple to block close to the table because they can not play backhand. Or they basically start to use it since people have a hard time against it and that is why they win more.

It is hard to discuss this. I think everyone should play exactly as they want, and i really like that people is using pimples. Is it very fun to watch different playing styles compared to all the loop loop today. And i think it is hard to say that you are covering a weakness if you start with pimples. Everyone should try to develop their playing style after what they are naturally good at, and if that is using pimples then do it. But like i tried to explain in the beginning, i think everyone should be able to do all the basic shots before starting with pimples and try to become better at their "weakness" before chaning equipment. I think it is smarter to try to focus more on your strengths and try to put on pimples to make them even better. I have a player that smash really well, and he win alot with it, so i should not consider it a weakness that he can not loop with spin but maybe more that it is his strenght and try to making it even better by changing his quipment to short pimple on the forehand. So maybe all this talk about covering weakness is totally wrong, and the people that are using pimples are actually making their strenghts better.

Spot on. I agree 100% with what you say. You're like a yoda of TT.

Lula · Jan 25, 2019

mart1nandersson said:
Spot on. I agree 100% with what you say. You're like a yoda of TT.

Haha, thank you i think. I am very glad that i am not green, hairy, wrinkly and around 60 cm. It is already hard to meet girls, when i am so much in the tabletennishall

I think this discussion about pimples is very good. People is to afraid to try pimples and i feel like some coaches and players think it is like cheating and that you are almost not as worthy if you use them. Maybe this discussion can get people to try pimples. A lot of players would proably become much better if they used pimples.

mart1nandersson · Jan 25, 2019

Lula said:
Haha, thank you i think. I am very glad that i am not green, hairy, wrinkly and around 60 cm. It is already hard to meet girls, when i am so much in the tabletennishall

I think this discussion about pimples is very good. People is to afraid to try pimples and i feel like some coaches and players think it is like cheating and that you are almost not as worthy if you use them. Maybe this discussion can get people to try pimples. A lot of players would proably become much better if they used pimples.

People should use pips for the right reasons. An example is my training partner who destroyed one of her ligaments last year which prevents her from playing a proper inverted backhand. Rakza PO is excellent for her as she doesn't have for use the same kind of movement. She won the elite level (D1) class last weekend with only about 6 months of play with SP.

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Is double inverted the most viable setup to play?

tropical

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NextLevel

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NextLevel

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yoass

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tropical

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Lula

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LordPippington

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mart1nandersson

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