Is double inverted the most viable setup to play?

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 23, 2019

Hi all,

I would like to hear your opinion about this. Most top players play inverted on both sides. Is that the most viable setup to be a great player? For example why are less players to play FH short pips(like Mattias Karlsson), BH short pips(like Tan Ruiwu) or modern defense with LP? I think that could be for the following reasons:

- More disadvantages then advantages(no personal offense any playstyle, I like to play against every kind of player, it's just a guess!

);

- On their first club where they start playing, coaches only have acknowledgement to teach to play with inverted(it can be the same case to learn to play as a penholder);

- Another reason?

If more players were advised by coach to change to SP or LP at start, would be more top players with LP/SP? Or double inverted would be again the most viable option?

Thanks,
Eduardo

Dr Evil · Jan 23, 2019

I like your first theory (more disadvantages than advantages). You can do more with inverted because you control the spin. The disadvantage (spin sensitivity) gets smaller and the advantages get bigger as you approach the highest level.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 23, 2019

Dr Evil said:
I like your first theory (more disadvantages than advantages). You can do more with inverted because you control the spin. The disadvantage (spin sensitivity) gets smaller and the advantages get bigger as you approach the highest level.

I agree also!

And what about He Zhi When for example? How could he manage to play in his shape with his age? with SP and no RPB?

mart1nandersson · Jan 23, 2019

I believe that Mattias Falck was told to try SP on his forehand by Marcus Sjöberg (nowadays the English National coach) as his loop was quite poor. Marcus is a keen advocate of “funny rubbers” and also the co owner of a web shop which speciality is pips out rubbers (Japsko.se).

I’m sure that Lula would be able to provide a lot of insights into this topic as he’s an SP player who has been coached by Mr. Sjöberg.

Lula · Jan 23, 2019

I think it is easier to become good with inverted because they are more safe because they are able to generate spin which make the ball go in an arch.

I also think it is alot about knowledge. Coaches can to little about short pimple and long pimple so they do not put these material on their players.

But in Sweden, both Hans Thalin and Marcus Sjöberg have good knowledge about longpimple and short pimple and how to use them. That is why there are pretty many players that use this kind of equipment in Sweden. I think Thalin was like a mentor for Sjöberg, so it was proably Thalin that put Short pimple on Falck and long pimple on Åkerström. Now when they are not coaching together anymore they still put alot of equipment on players. They have great success in doing this. Maybe not everyone becomes a pro but alot of them do very well and become successfull in Sweden. So it is very possible to become good with other equipment than inverted if you have coaches that know their stuff.

If you have the pleasure to be coached by Thalin or Sjöberg i highly recommend it. I had them as my coaches for some years and they have a lot of knowledge and are very nice people.

Lightzy · Jan 23, 2019

It was a while ago but Liu Guoliang was world champion with pips on forehand, and mima ito is now killing everyone with pips on backhand (although she also seems to just be about 1.5 times faster than anyone else which is amazing).
With short pips you can hit amazing topspins (especially against backspin, it actually makes it way easier than with inverted).

But if we're talking about amateur leagues, then pips is not only a valid way to play, it's often a winning way.

Btw if you want to go more in depth on the subject then look up Gregg Letts on youtube. He has a ton of tutorials and discussions about the nature and use of pips of all kind and anti.
His videos from about 4 years and further are especially fun to watch because he has this ultra calm demeanor and speaks slowly, kind of like as if he's talking to children. It's really calming while also being an education. Great presenter I think.
He does like, a 30 minute discussion only on the subject of how to return dead balls with long pips, etc.

mart1nandersson · Jan 23, 2019

+1 on Mima Ito.

I think that you can reach elite level (lets say top 20) in most countries except China and Japan using pips out.

FruitLoop · Jan 23, 2019

He majority of young people don't use them. If more did I think you'd see more variations at top level. That said double inverted is probably the least weaknesses.

Lula · Jan 23, 2019

Lightzy said:
But if we're talking about amateur leagues, then pips is not only a valid way to play, it's often a winning way.

Many people use pimple the wrong way. They think it will be easier to block with short pimple so they start using it but do nothing with it. And middle aged men that have played for some years do not have the patience to learn how to use backhand so they put long pimple on the backhand and just push everything.

If you use pimples it is pretty good to have a thought why you should use it and how you should do the strokes to get good results.

I can also think that some players do not try to use pimples since some of their friends see it as cheating.

Lightzy · Jan 23, 2019

Lula said:
Many people use pimple the wrong way. They think it will be easier to block with short pimple so they start using it but do nothing with it. And middle aged men that have played for some years do not have the patience to learn how to use backhand so they put long pimple on the backhand and just push everything.

If you use pimples it is pretty good to have a thought why you should use it and how you should do the strokes to get good results.

I can also think that some players do not try to use pimples since some of their friends see it as cheating.

That's right, they don't know how to use it really, but they know just enough to put the ball back on the table mostly, and in a way that confuses people or just kills them (because even if they know you can topspin the heavy backspin from pimples, they simply don't have the technique to perform that kind of loop).

G_ZHANG · Jan 23, 2019

Let's discuss it from two points of view: Pros and amateurs.
let me talk about Pros fist.

why are less pro players to play FH short pips: Short pips are fast, less sensitive to spin, therefore player with FH short pips can fast slap to kill the point, e.g. Liu Guoliang. But after the ball changed from 38mm cell to 40mm ABS, the speed is much slower. Fast slap shot by FH short pips is just not fast enough to kill the point now. If the shot is only fast but with little spin, the other player just need to fall back, and there will be plenty of time of spin the ball back.From pro's point of view, such slowerness in speed just kills the FH short pips.
For 40+ balls, players need a combination of speed and spin in order to win the point. With inverted FH, you can make different shots with various combinations of speed and spin, thus can make much more tactical change during game than shot pips. But not with FH shot pips, which is only fast and less spin, but not fast enough.

why are less Pro players to play BH short pips: similar to FH. BH short pips can make less tactical change. The most usable strategy for BH short pips is fast. close to table fast slap. That works for women's game as women's shots are not that fast and spinny, and most women's games are closer to the table. For men's game, that don't really work. Men's shots are just so powerful, staying close to the table to fast punch is so hard against such shot.
second reason is , shot pips are much harder to control even for Pros. To punch a very fast and spinny incoming shot, player has very limited room to punch the correct shot. Inverted BH has much easier to control and easier to make tacital change.

BH shot pips is very much depending on the player's hand feeling on the match day. If that player is on fire, he or she can punch everything. But if the player can't find the right shot, there will be loads of misses.

That's why, even Mima Ito, when she feels good, she can win 3-4 Chinese players in a tournament. But also, if she doesn't has the right feeling for the day, she can be out even in the first round.

why are less Pro players to play BH short pipsmodern defense with LP:Again, one reason is the ball. 40+and even ABS Balls reduces the spin, making it harder to chop spinny shot thus reduces the variation of spin choppers can do.
Second reason is still with tactical change. There are not much things you can do with BH LP. Previous successful choppers varies the spin to gain tactical advantage. But this is killed by changing to ABS ball.

Ioiettino · Jan 23, 2019

Lula said:
Many people use pimple the wrong way. They think it will be easier to block with short pimple so they start using it but do nothing with it. And middle aged men that have played for some years do not have the patience to learn how to use backhand so they put long pimple on the backhand and just push everything.

If you use pimples it is pretty good to have a thought why you should use it and how you should do the strokes to get good results.

I can also think that some players do not try to use pimples since some of their friends see it as cheating.

In that sense what an advertisement Ito is giving for pips, she does things with them most people wouldn't dream of doing with inverted (funny that we still call them inverted, by the way).

Also your last statement is very true, but also comes from the behaviour you mentioned (I won't bother with technique but rather rely on material to do the job), which is a shame as there is so much potential to actively and intelligently trouble opponents with them. I'll admit I haven't always thought this way, but that was because all I knew was this type of beer-belly, anti-game players. And now, heck, I'd miss even them if they disappeared.

Lula · Jan 23, 2019

G_ZHANG said:
Let's discuss it from two points of view: Pros and amateurs.
let me talk about Pros fist.

why are less pro players to play FH short pips: Short pips are fast, less sensitive to spin, therefore player with FH short pips can fast slap to kill the point, e.g. Liu Guoliang. But after the ball changed from 38mm cell to 40mm ABS, the speed is much slower. Fast slap shot by FH short pips is just not fast enough to kill the point now. If the shot is only fast but with little spin, the other player just need to fall back, and there will be plenty of time of spin the ball back.From pro's point of view, such slowerness in speed just kills the FH short pips.
For 40+ balls, players need a combination of speed and spin in order to win the point. With inverted FH, you can make different shots with various combinations of speed and spin, thus can make much more tactical change during game than shot pips. But not with FH shot pips, which is only fast and less spin, but not fast enough.

why are less Pro players to play BH short pips: similar to FH. BH short pips can make less tactical change. The most usable strategy for BH short pips is fast. close to table fast slap. That works for women's game as women's shots are not that fast and spinny, and most women's games are closer to the table. For men's game, that don't really work. Men's shots are just so powerful, staying close to the table to fast punch is so hard against such shot.
second reason is , shot pips are much harder to control even for Pros. To punch a very fast and spinny incoming shot, player has very limited room to punch the correct shot. Inverted BH has much easier to control and easier to make tacital change.

BH shot pips is very much depending on the player's hand feeling on the match day. If that player is on fire, he or she can punch everything. But if the player can't find the right shot, there will be loads of misses.

That's why, even Mima Ito, when she feels good, she can win 3-4 Chinese players in a tournament. But also, if she doesn't has the right feeling for the day, she can be out even in the first round.

why are less Pro players to play BH short pipsmodern defense with LP:Again, one reason is the ball. 40+and even ABS Balls reduces the spin, making it harder to chop spinny shot thus reduces the variation of spin choppers can do.
Second reason is still with tactical change. There are not much things you can do with BH LP. Previous successful choppers varies the spin to gain tactical advantage. But this is killed by changing to ABS ball.

I agree that the change of ball could be a reason. But i think the new ball do not only affect short pimple players but alot of players and their playing style. Maybe the new ball is to slow for short pimple play, but i feel like it is alot of counterattacking and counterlooping because of less spin the ball, and a lot of players play closer to the table and this would suit short pimple pretty okay. I think the new ball is much much worse for long pimple players since they do not get enough spin.

But i think you could be right, and like others have stated that there are more advantages with using inverted compared to pimples. I think the limited third ball attack with short pimples is a big problem for players. But i still think that if the knowledge would be better, then more people would use it and proably more people would become successfull with it. Since there are much fewer that use piimples it must be more unlikely that a pro uses pimples. But maybe it is a reason why there are fewer that use it. But it is possible to make it with pimples. Mattias Falck is 12 in the world now i think? and that is not so shabby.

langel · Jan 23, 2019

I like this topic as it reminds me the year of 1975 when I had to answer the question
"Is double inverted the most viable setup to play?"

Loopadoop · Jan 24, 2019

At the club amateur level, long pips can be very effective with the plastic ball.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 24, 2019

mart1nandersson said:
I believe that Mattias Falck was told to try SP on his forehand by Marcus Sjöberg (nowadays the English National coach) as his loop was quite poor. Marcus is a keen advocate of “funny rubbers” and also the co owner of a web shop which speciality is pips out rubbers (Japsko.se).

I’m sure that Lula would be able to provide a lot of insights into this topic as he’s an SP player who has been coached by Mr. Sjöberg.

That's the common reason to someone change to SP right?

Lula said:
I think it is easier to become good with inverted because they are more safe because they are able to generate spin which make the ball go in an arch.

I also think it is alot about knowledge. Coaches can to little about short pimple and long pimple so they do not put these material on their players.

But in Sweden, both Hans Thalin and Marcus Sjöberg have good knowledge about longpimple and short pimple and how to use them. That is why there are pretty many players that use this kind of equipment in Sweden. I think Thalin was like a mentor for Sjöberg, so it was proably Thalin that put Short pimple on Falck and long pimple on Åkerström. Now when they are not coaching together anymore they still put alot of equipment on players. They have great success in doing this. Maybe not everyone becomes a pro but alot of them do very well and become successfull in Sweden. So it is very possible to become good with other equipment than inverted if you have coaches that know their stuff.

If you have the pleasure to be coached by Thalin or Sjöberg i highly recommend it. I had them as my coaches for some years and they have a lot of knowledge and are very nice people.

Would be nice that coaches could spread their knowledge about pips around the world! Would be nice to have more diversity in younger and rising players!

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 24, 2019

Lightzy said:
It was a while ago but Liu Guoliang was world champion with pips on forehand, and mima ito is now killing everyone with pips on backhand (although she also seems to just be about 1.5 times faster than anyone else which is amazing).
With short pips you can hit amazing topspins (especially against backspin, it actually makes it way easier than with inverted).

But if we're talking about amateur leagues, then pips is not only a valid way to play, it's often a winning way.

Btw if you want to go more in depth on the subject then look up Gregg Letts on youtube. He has a ton of tutorials and discussions about the nature and use of pips of all kind and anti.
His videos from about 4 years and further are especially fun to watch because he has this ultra calm demeanor and speaks slowly, kind of like as if he's talking to children. It's really calming while also being an education. Great presenter I think.
He does like, a 30 minute discussion only on the subject of how to return dead balls with long pips, etc.

Don't forget he zhuojia(I find interesting how he uses her LP)!! Thank you! I will give it a check!

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 24, 2019

Lula said:
Many people use pimple the wrong way. They think it will be easier to block with short pimple so they start using it but do nothing with it. And middle aged men that have played for some years do not have the patience to learn how to use backhand so they put long pimple on the backhand and just push everything.

If you use pimples it is pretty good to have a thought why you should use it and how you should do the strokes to get good results.

I can also think that some players do not try to use pimples since some of their friends see it as cheating.

True. For example. In one of the leagues that I play, the player that usually wins all the tournaments is a BH LP pips hitter. He knows really how to use pips, he doesn't have awkward BH stroke(nothing like Zhang Guo Zhi), he just can easily hit with the pips so easily, and plus he has a good FH, and good transition between FH and BH, so he can do some good pace variation. There are other short pips players there, but no one can use 100% of pips potential like him there.

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 24, 2019

G_ZHANG said:
Let's discuss it from two points of view: Pros and amateurs.
let me talk about Pros fist.

why are less pro players to play FH short pips: Short pips are fast, less sensitive to spin, therefore player with FH short pips can fast slap to kill the point, e.g. Liu Guoliang. But after the ball changed from 38mm cell to 40mm ABS, the speed is much slower. Fast slap shot by FH short pips is just not fast enough to kill the point now. If the shot is only fast but with little spin, the other player just need to fall back, and there will be plenty of time of spin the ball back.From pro's point of view, such slowerness in speed just kills the FH short pips.
For 40+ balls, players need a combination of speed and spin in order to win the point. With inverted FH, you can make different shots with various combinations of speed and spin, thus can make much more tactical change during game than shot pips. But not with FH shot pips, which is only fast and less spin, but not fast enough.

why are less Pro players to play BH short pips: similar to FH. BH short pips can make less tactical change. The most usable strategy for BH short pips is fast. close to table fast slap. That works for women's game as women's shots are not that fast and spinny, and most women's games are closer to the table. For men's game, that don't really work. Men's shots are just so powerful, staying close to the table to fast punch is so hard against such shot.
second reason is , shot pips are much harder to control even for Pros. To punch a very fast and spinny incoming shot, player has very limited room to punch the correct shot. Inverted BH has much easier to control and easier to make tacital change.

BH shot pips is very much depending on the player's hand feeling on the match day. If that player is on fire, he or she can punch everything. But if the player can't find the right shot, there will be loads of misses.

That's why, even Mima Ito, when she feels good, she can win 3-4 Chinese players in a tournament. But also, if she doesn't has the right feeling for the day, she can be out even in the first round.

why are less Pro players to play BH short pipsmodern defense with LP:Again, one reason is the ball. 40+and even ABS Balls reduces the spin, making it harder to chop spinny shot thus reduces the variation of spin choppers can do.
Second reason is still with tactical change. There are not much things you can do with BH LP. Previous successful choppers varies the spin to gain tactical advantage. But this is killed by changing to ABS ball.

Nice content!

I feel that every time that I play against someone with SP on his BH, I feel more confortable to play in a mid distance instead of playing closer to the table, as I feel that, even when he plays with inverted, the ball hasn't so much power compared to a ball that comes from a dual inverted setup(maybe because of the head weight).

So a possible solution to that could be to play like he zhuojia? LP hitter? not only with speed, but with more deception?

eduardo1995filipe · Jan 24, 2019

Lula said:
I agree that the change of ball could be a reason. But i think the new ball do not only affect short pimple players but alot of players and their playing style. Maybe the new ball is to slow for short pimple play, but i feel like it is alot of counterattacking and counterlooping because of less spin the ball, and a lot of players play closer to the table and this would suit short pimple pretty okay. I think the new ball is much much worse for long pimple players since they do not get enough spin.

But i think you could be right, and like others have stated that there are more advantages with using inverted compared to pimples. I think the limited third ball attack with short pimples is a big problem for players. But i still think that if the knowledge would be better, then more people would use it and proably more people would become successfull with it. Since there are much fewer that use piimples it must be more unlikely that a pro uses pimples. But maybe it is a reason why there are fewer that use it. But it is possible to make it with pimples. Mattias Falck is 12 in the world now i think? and that is not so shabby.

Yeah, I've also been trying to play closer to the table, and besides I have been had nice coaching sessions where I worked my BH, transition between BH-FH/FH-BH and my close to the table. On match play it's still difficult to me to use BH, but its much better on practice, but I also feel more natural to hit the ball on BH(close to the table) as it's what always did before trying to improve my BH, so I thought SPs could be a nice approach, despite never tried it! But could solve my close to the table problem!

Is double inverted the most viable setup to play?

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