How to return a fast short pendulum serve to the wide bh

dominus7 said:

What rubber do you recommend for more control? If you don't mind from the cheapest, medium and most expensive please, I mean at least 3 rubbers

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It could be that your racket is to fast. But i still think you could put the ball onto the table with a fast racket aswell. If the ball goes long, you need to change something. Like i said before, you can never do the same mistake several times. If the ball goes to long, it is proably some sidetopspin in the serve and you need to go more over the ball, close the racket of the angle or hit more forward. I still think, like i said before that the best way to find an answer would be for you to try different ways to return the serve, and you will find out for yourself what works good. Without a video, we are almost just speculating here.

My money says we need to see video footage of what dominus is trying to describe. With footage, I have a feeling it will be obvious what he needs to work on.

And a guess would be, returning serves and reading spin.

Dominus, it has been a while since I have seen footage of you. Footage of returning serve and match play will be informative. I am looking forward to seeing how much improvement you must have made over the last 6 months or so.

dominus7 said:

Hi to all, I've been passed hard times trying to return short or even long but over the table, a mate which is a righty cpen player, I'm using a V16 sticked El-P at BH...

...the only way that I can return is with a long flick to the deep BH side, which mostly times comes back with a fast topspin/push to the FH corner...

This certainly not the only way, but maybe the only way you are comfortable doing. Opponent seems to know you are doing this. There are some ways to give opponent doubt and reduce the readiness for your return. It is all about variation. Your easiest option is placement variation to side. (deep) You are already returning deep, just learn how to at last moment knock that ball the other way. That can stop opponent from being so ready.

Another variation is DEPTH variation. This will take time, but learn to bump it short as well. Being able to give back both short and deep (also just barely past end line) will help stop opponent from being so ready to kill you.

Another variation is SPIN variation. A lot of ways to change spin, but when you earn how to angle the bat right and control your grip pressure, you can give back dead... or you can give back heavy underspin. Once you show opponent this and opponent misses some attacks, they will keep missing or stop their attacking... which gives you a chance to attack.

Another variation is SPEED variation. When you learn how to firm or loosen the grip on your punch shot, you will greatly change the speed of the ball, which will break opponent's rhythm and reduce consistency/quality... which gives you errors or a chance to attack.

then is difficult to me counter topspin, I know it's a matter of footwork and I'm training that, but the most worrying is that when it comes the serve with heavy sidespin I can't return to the table, mostly times go long...

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See notes in bold.

Dominus7,

Being able to return serves properly requires extensive coaching and experience. The first thing is to be able go read the spin on the serve and depending on the level of the opponent this can be hard. Then the next thing is to be able to create the racket angle and the stroke that controls the spin. This can take time as well.

At your level, it is common to be unable to return spinny serves. And trust me no amount of writing will fix the problem. You are better off watching a ping skills video on how to adjust your racket angle to compensate for spin so you at least know what is on the serve if you hold your racke flat.

If I was addressing my comments to a typical adult 1300 USATT rated player who expressed the same problem with the same serve... I would probably say the same things I did.

Variation is the way to break rhythm and readiness of opponent.

The problem with my advice is there is only so much a 1300 level player would be able to immediately implement.

Thus, my advice is for STRATEGIC DEVELOPMENT.

However, the basic concepts apply. A way to adjust is to vary your returns. At the 1300 USATT level, again, only so much can be done right away, but that class of player will benefit MUCH MORE in the future by working to develop the ways to perform variation.

Of course the spin, speed, and depth recognition of a 1300 level player are not going to be there to do a whole lot right away, except to get into more trouble. Inability to read spin is a big issue for 1300 level players... it is also a big issue for players 5-7 levels above that level as well... just not as much of an issue as it is with the 1300 level.

Next Level is right. If a player is not able to implement the basics of variation nor cope with heavy or changing spins... it is already game over and no amount of asking questions on a TT forum or reading them is going to be of immediate help.

Again, however, the benefit from asking and getting a sound answer is that there is an identification of the need, an explanation of what to do or can be done... and hopefully, a will of the player to start working on it.

Now if the situation of the player is such that it is difficult to get structured reps... then even that advice is not going to do much good.

This is the majority of TT situations in USA. MANY MANY MANY PLAYERS must drive 1-3 hours just to find a place for TT open only 1-2 times a week for only 2 hours or so... then there is only match play allowed... winner stays on table for 3 wins and must get off... player must wait 30-45 minutes to get back on a table (too few tables for the players) and a player who is USATT1300 or lower will not win many if any matches... so there is MUCH more waiting than playing.

Then you MIGHT have decently higher level players there... but for real, what benefit does a 2100 USATT player have playing a 1300 rated player... practically none... and that player now accounts for 1 of the 3 chances to play vs a player who would contribute to maintaining/improving level... so how is the higher level player gunna feel? That player might not ever show up again... or play only with players who can help out in some way. Sure, some players will be willing to give up that chance to coach someone for free... I do it all the time, but not so many players will do that.

This is a fundamental flaw that is a result of USA being so large and spread out without any real infrastructure regionally or nationally.

NextLevel said:

Dominus7,

Being able to return serves properly requires extensive coaching and experience. The first thing is to be able go read the spin on the serve and depending on the level of the opponent this can be hard. Then the next thing is to be able to create the racket angle and the stroke that controls the spin. This can take time as well.

At your level, it is common to be unable to return spinny serves. And trust me no amount of writing will fix the problem. You are better off watching a ping skills video on how to adjust your racket angle to compensate for spin so you at least know what is on the serve if you hold your racket flat.

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My post above can be summarized in agreeing with Next Level and saying that if a player asks for advice on a TT forum, gets good advice, but cannot implement it successfully, then the player is at a level where any written advice will not immediately help them in their match play.

That is not saying that a player should not ask and receive advice... that is valuable... but it will take time and reps to make that advice work worth anything.

At the level of the OP, one way to go about it progressively is to try to consistently get the ball off the bounce with a very soft grip and very short (few cm) stroke and move from there progressively with more aggression. It is not the only way to grow, but a practical and implementable one that slowly addresses the issue a bit at a time.

To be fair, even at my level, a relatively advanced level, I will not be able to ask for advice, receive a very long and good reply and be able to put it together effectively right away. I MIGHT be able to apply more of the advice right away than a 1300 level player, but even I at my OK level am not able to implement all the advice right away, even if it comes from the best national coach or Asia/Europe...

That is the way of the weasel in TT.

dominus7 said:

What rubber do you recommend for more control? If you don't mind from the cheapest, medium and most expensive please, I mean at least 3 rubbers

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Tony ought to reply, and will if he is willing, but I cannot help myself on this one.

MX-P is one of the elite offensive rubbers made to date... if that is what you are still using on BH. Naturally, without grip pressure control, a stroke with that rubber when you stroke aggressively and do not properly read the spin will result in many balls moving off the bat at a higher speed than you want (and many going out)

Tony is suggesting to try a rubber that allows easier return of serves and still allow some offense and/or ability to grow one's game. There is always disagreement among coaches on exactly what this means or how to go about it. But get this right, Tony has been around the block so to speak and is not "speaking out his arse". He knows how to identify problems and develop players. Neither is Lula, NL, or many others trying to help.

What Tony is referring to is a rubber that has less catapult (and less spin reactive) and more ease of controlling rebound. There are many in this control class. Another may be sponge thickness. (although I do not like recommending thinner sponges).

Vega Euro is an example and there are hundreds.

Dominus, true, the reason you describe is why I write, not just for an OP, but for others who read. I believe others do so as well.

If there were hundreds of these technique/tactics discussions easily available to me when I started TT, then I MIGHT have had a better chance at developing faster and better than I did.

Just knowing what the problem is can be a good start. it is one of the step of problem solving.

Risky to recommend equipment to someone who has a very bad case of the EJ virus. [emoji2]

Especially since all past suggestions to OP to use equipment that has more control and would be more suitable have resulted in the OP using more and different equipment that would be suitable to players at the elite level or higher.

And hence we see that OP has listed that he uses MXP on FH and BH. I say, to use a rubber as hard and unforgiving as MXP on BH, he must have a MONSTER BH. But somehow, that is not what I saw last time I saw footage. He could have developed crazy skills in the last 6 months. But MXP is hard to tame on BH unless you are at a pretty high level.

Yeah. If you are happy with it, stick with whatever you are using. Technique and working on technique and game skills is much more important than equipment.

It is true that the 7 ply Kevlar+Carbon blade (Yinhe Galaxy V16) plus rubbers like MXP and ELP is still way faster than you could possibly want. However, if it makes you happy, so what if it makes it a lot harder for you to learn how to return serves or play short game.

Der_Echte said what I wanted to say about the rubber/blade issue.
If the equipment is too fast for your technique, it will just take you longer to get it right.
You mentioned somewhere to someone that the ball keeps going long - meaning you (sort of) getting the spin reading correct and you are controlling the ball in the right direction or the direction you want. The problem is long, and now you mentioned high.
Long is that you can't control where the ball lands - so you are either using too much incoming power/spin or you are not generating enough of your own spin. This is a skills issue and directly link with equipment too fast issue - this was my main point in my previous post.

for too high issue, this is more reading incorrect spin, or again not taming the incoming spin or not adding enough of your own spin. But you have not been clear if this is incorrect reading issue.
IE you think its side under, and you go in a chop, but the ball pops up - because its side top spin etc.
or if you read it correct as top sin, but your bh counter drive, flick, top spin goes long or high, this means you are not controlling the ball

If it is a reading issue, I would still say go 1 or 2 level down on your equipment speed.
And practice say 100 of each serve return everytime you play (hope someone can serve for you),
a) side under short
b) side top short)
c) side under medium long
D) side top medium long
E) side under long
F) side top long.
and of each 100 serve, get your partner to serve into different areas from middle to left (bh edge) of the table.

Good luck

Tony's Table Tennis said:

Der_Echte said what I wanted to say about the rubber/blade issue.
If the equipment is too fast for your technique, it will just take you longer to get it right.
You mentioned somewhere to someone that the ball keeps going long - meaning you (sort of) getting the spin reading correct and you are controlling the ball in the right direction or the direction you want. The problem is long, and now you mentioned high.
Long is that you can't control where the ball lands - so you are either using too much incoming power/spin or you are not generating enough of your own spin. This is a skills issue and directly link with equipment too fast issue - this was my main point in my previous post.

for too high issue, this is more reading incorrect spin, or again not taming the incoming spin or not adding enough of your own spin. But you have not been clear if this is incorrect reading issue.
IE you think its side under, and you go in a chop, but the ball pops up - because its side top spin etc.
or if you read it correct as top sin, but your bh counter drive, flick, top spin goes long or high, this means you are not controlling the ball

If it is a reading issue, I would still say go 1 or 2 level down on your equipment speed.
And practice say 100 of each serve return everytime you play (hope someone can serve for you),
a) side under short
b) side top short)
c) side under medium long
D) side top medium long
E) side under long
F) side top long.
and of each 100 serve, get your partner to serve into different areas from middle to left (bh edge) of the table.

Good luck

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Just so you know Tony, based on video footage, several times, in several different threads, Dominus has been told that his equipment is way too fast for him. That he should be using something slower. That he should use an All or All+ blade at fastest and simple control rubbers. Consistently, after threads where he was looking for help with equipment he seems to have ignored all advice and systematically and progressively used faster and faster equipment.



There is not much you can do when someone thinks they know what they need and ignore the video footage of them not being able to get more than 3 shots in a row on the table.