USA Olympic selection process change

mart1nandersson · Jan 28, 2019

I find this very fascinating as an outsider. I've grown up with track & field and I've always admired the USATF trials system for the olympics due to it's fairness. It doesn't matter I've you have the WB in the 100m for the running year if you don't perform during the trials. It's really beyond me why you wouldn't apply the same to TT. The TT world ranking is a useless metric. Don't get me wrong but the fact that my country man Mattias Falck can be top20 kind of proves this point. Only people with the right sponsorship / funding can gain world ranking points.

FruitLoop · Jan 29, 2019

It's still an objective way to do it and if it was one spot WR and two spots trial I don't think anyone could complain about fairness.

Loopadoop · Jan 29, 2019

FruitLoop said:
It's still an objective way to do it and if it was one spot WR and two spots trial I don't think anyone could complain about fairness.

Why do it that way, if a player is WR ? They shouldn't be afraid of competition. No one would complain about full
competition for all the spots, then no controversy.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

Loopadoop said:
Why do it that way, if a player is WR ? They shouldn't be afraid of competition. No one would complain about full
competition for all the spots, then no controversy.

I think what Mart1n pointed out and what I covered so many times on this silly world ranking, wait, I mean its more of a participation ranking, which is a problem if you have no funding to travel the world.

Going back to USA table tennis, I don't think your national team players get funded to play world tours
So if you have a rich dad, he can send his kid on 10 world tours.
There is a good chance the kid can rank higher than better players that only get send by USATT on your regional ITTF tournaments (I assume 1 or 2 or 3 a year?)

I mentioned earlier of WR, but then, I was using Taiwan's example, but then there have 12 players that gets funded to tour, at the end of the day, its the 12 players own fault if they are not ranked higher than another.

IE for WTTC, in Taiwan.
Top 50 players qualify.
CCY, CCA and Lin yu lu auto qualifies
so they had trials for 2 more mens, thus making it 5 players
Lin made it to top 50 with good performance past 6 months.

for Womens, CIC and Chen auto qualifies, so trials was for 3 womens.

I think for USATT for olympics
1 spot for US Champion
2 spot for trials
Zero spot for coaches selection - this way coaches is not accountable for who makes the team. All fair

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

Oh and btw
Wang Chen has posted, she has chatted to USOC and have decided to fight USATT

lightspin · Jan 29, 2019

To play in world tour events, I recall that you need to have the approval of your home association. I think it is not just as simple as going to sign up. So even if you are rich, if your home association doesn't approve, you are not playing.

The more I think about this issue, the more disappointed I am in the USATT. I hope Wang Chen can get something done about this. Otherwise the USA in USATT will no longer stand for the United States of America. It will stand for the Unaccountable Selection of Athletes.

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

I actually trust the USATT HPD on this one. I know why the other athletes like Wang Chen are complaining but I think that Jorg Bitzigeio has been good for our sport in the US and that there is little wrong in making sure that spots are used to develop talent and not to satisfy the wishes of those who aren't going to win medals.

https://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Joerg-Bitzigeio

lightspin · Jan 29, 2019

Well, if the hopes and dreams can't beat the older players who have no chance at winning medals, then the hopes and dreams probably aren't going to win medals themselves. Once they can actually beat the older players fairly, maybe then they have a chance. Send the best team, not who might be the best team eventually.

Also who is to say once these players become college aged they keep training instead of simply quitting the sport. It has happened in the past...

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

Tony's Table Tennis said:
Oh and btw
Wang Chen has posted, she has chatted to USOC and have decided to fight USATT

She can do what she wants. Maybe she will win maybe she won't.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

NextLevel said:
She can do what she wants. Maybe she will win maybe she won't.

you can reply with something useful or you can reply with something not useful, you can do what ever you want

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

lightspin said:
Well, if the hopes and dreams can't beat the older players who have no chance at winning medals, then the hopes and dreams probably aren't going to win medals themselves. Once they can actually beat the older players fairly, maybe then they have a chance. Send the best team, not who might be the best team eventually.

Also who is to say once these players become college aged they keep training instead of simply quitting the sport. It has happened in the past...

Well, Kanak Jha didn't. Lily Zhang didn't either. Ariel Hsing did. The whole dynamics is interesting. Consider China. Their inverted players used to beat the pips out players in training matches/trials. Yet they sent their pips out players to compete because they thought it was best for their sport and their best chance of winning.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

NextLevel said:
I actually trust the USATT HPD on this one. I know why the other athletes like Wang Chen are complaining but I think that Jorg Bitzigeio has been good for our sport in the US and that there is little wrong in making sure that spots are used to develop talent and not to satisfy the wishes of those who aren't going to win medals.

https://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Joerg-Bitzigeio

judging from what I read from the German women's players, I don't hold Joerg in any high regards
seems like there was discrimination selection in Germany too

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

Tony's Table Tennis said:
you can reply with something useful or you can reply with something not useful, you can do what ever you want

My point is that her challenging the system does nothing other than to make it clear she is against it. Similar complaints have been lodged in the past about how the national teams for boys and girls have been selected and they didn't get far if I remember correctly.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

lightspin said:
To play in world tour events, I recall that you need to have the approval of your home association. I think it is not just as simple as going to sign up. So even if you are rich, if your home association doesn't approve, you are not playing.

The more I think about this issue, the more disappointed I am in the USATT. I hope Wang Chen can get something done about this. Otherwise the USA in USATT will no longer stand for the United States of America. It will stand for the Unaccountable Selection of Athletes.

i'm not sure about the new USATT
but the old USATT does have Wally Green (non national team contender) playing in pro tours (what they called it back then)
and yes, you require your host association to register you in any ITTF events.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

NextLevel said:
My point is that her challenging the system does nothing other than to make it clear she is against it. Similar complaints have been lodged in the past about how the national teams for boys and girls have been selected and they didn't get far if I remember correctly.

you didn't state this point, you said she might win, she might not lol, its very different....

complaint and law suit, I think is two different things.
she has been moaning and complaining for few days, from her latest post she seems to be going the legal route.

from what I read, US law does not cater for any form of unfairness. you guys are lucky to have such laws.

In south africa, we have "skin colour" selection policies aka Quota target.
let me take Cricket as an example - 11 players in a team.
6 of the 11 players must be of colour (african black, coloured, indian), of which 3 must be black.
This is in the law and very legal.
The pro is to promote a wider audience of athletes and it will link to forcing development of more players of colour.
the cons is, if you are the 6th white player, sorry for you. That is why lots of white SA cricketers has left the national setup and chased personal career

I don't think politics and sports should ever mix

PS, i understand the important of development to the "previous disadvantage communities", but I am against discrimination of any kind

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

Tony's Table Tennis said:
you didn't state this point, you said she might win, she might not lol, its very different....

complaint and law suit, I think is two different things.
she has been moaning and complaining for few days, from her latest post she seems to be going the legal route.

from what I read, US law does not cater for any form of unfairness. you guys are lucky to have such laws.

In south africa, we have "skin colour" selection policies aka Quota target.
let me take Cricket as an example - 11 players in a team.
6 of the 11 players must be of colour (african black, coloured, indian), of which 3 must be black.
This is in the law and very legal.
The pro is to promote a wider audience of atheltes
the cons is, if you are the 6th white player, sorry for you. That is why lots of SA cricketers has left the national setup and chased personal career

I don't think politics and sports should ever mix

Yes, but it all depends on the basis of the supposed unfairness. In America, we have affirmative action policies as well and that are built into the law as needed. It really comes down to what the law says and how a judge interprets it. She has to show that she is disparately impacted in some unfairly way by the criteria and that other sports do not have or are not justified in having such criteria. It will be interesting.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jan 29, 2019

NextLevel said:
Well, Kanak Jha didn't. Lily Zhang didn't either. Ariel Hsing did. The whole dynamics is interesting. Consider China. Their inverted players used to beat the pips out players in training matches/trials. Yet they sent their pips out players to compete because they thought it was best for their sport and their best chance of winning.

I think Kanak is a new breed.
He chosen the pro career and is in Europe for what, 2 years already right?

back in Lily's day, you have Ariel and Erica.
2/3 out with only Lily in -that is not so good.

The mens team wasn't that strong, but guys like Adam Hugh had to work full time in the day time and later "retired" to focus on his work and coaching.

I really hope US can allow careers for these sacrificing athletes.
I remember Larry commenting that (few years ago), the current crop of cadets is by far the strongest. He has Crystal. There is also Amy, Tina, Angela. Lily herself was a top world U18

Lets see how the future shows.

and your example of China is exactly how backwards USATT has become if they use the same method of the 80s
China has been using Trials for a very very long time now
You are talking about eras where China's only goal in TT is not to loose.
That was the same era where they will sacrifice to allow a stronger player to go into the next round for "national pride"

Now the players are all very powerful - have millions of fans. CNT cannot just cherry pick, they have to be fair and only have 1 coaches pick of 5 WTTC spots.
And some new rules of taking a U21 or Junior with is also something to win "public vote"

The only question mark of CNT and Olympics is "players sudden injury", thus some player can't go and some other went

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

Tony's Table Tennis said:
I think Kanak is a new breed.
He chosen the pro career and is in Europe for what, 2 years already right?

back in Lily's day, you have Ariel and Erica.
2/3 out with only Lily in -that is not so good.

The mens team wasn't that strong, but guys like Adam Hugh had to work full time in the day time and later "retired" to focus on his work and coaching.

I really hope US can allow careers for these sacrificing athletes.
I remember Larry commenting that (few years ago), the current crop of cadets is by far the strongest. He has Crystal. There is also Amy, Tina, Angela. Lily herself was a top world U18

Lets see how the future shows.

and your example of China is exactly how backwards USATT has become if they use the same method of the 80s
China has been using Trials for a very very long time now
You are talking about eras where China's only goal in TT is not to loose.
That was the same era where they will sacrifice to allow a stronger player to go into the next round for "national pride"

Now the players are all very powerful - have millions of fans. CNT cannot just cherry pick, they have to be fair and only have 1 coaches pick of 5 WTTC spots.
And some new rules of taking a U21 or Junior with is also something to win "public vote"

The only question mark of CNT and Olympics is "players sudden injury", thus some player can't go and some other went

China chose Zhang Jike despite his having the lower world ranking than Fan Zhendong and Xu Xin. Fan Zhendonf qualified by ranking but they replaced him with Zhang Jike no questions asked. They even took Xu Xin for 3rd spot over Fan who was ranked #2 behind Ma Long and who came second in trials qualification to Ma Long.

Yes, USA is backward for taking coach selection over trial and ranking. So is China, the best TT nation in the world.

lightspin · Jan 29, 2019

China is China and America is America. The Chinese system is entirely different than the one in the USA. I can somewhat understand a team wanting to send an unorthodox player because they might be incredibly difficult to beat the first time someone plays them. Locally such a player might not be that great because everyone has figured them out but internationally they might upset a few people and do well. Maybe leaving it up to the coach to pick one spot might be acceptable. It is just not in the American spirit though to pick the vast majority of the members of the team.

Speak to some of the Chinese players living here about the system there. It is brutal. Argue with your coach? Your career is basically over. Make the Chinese National Team? Your coach might require you to pay them a lot of money. If you can't afford it, you can go back to your province team. I hope this isn't the direction USATT is moving towards. Because most of the team is being selected, it would be a very bad idea to publicly argue with the higher ups or for example refuse to go to one of the training camps. What if one of the people deciding goes to a promising junior and says "Hey you have a problem with your footwork. I can coach you and fix it for $$." What is that junior supposed to say knowing the coach is selecting people for the national or Olympic team. It just seems bad to me.

NextLevel · Jan 29, 2019

lightspin said:
China is China and America is America. The Chinese system is entirely different than the one in the USA. I can somewhat understand a team wanting to send an unorthodox player because they might be incredibly difficult to beat the first time someone plays them. Locally such a player might not be that great because everyone has figured them out but internationally they might upset a few people and do well. Maybe leaving it up to the coach to pick one spot might be acceptable. It is just not in the American spirit though to pick the vast majority of the members of the team.

Speak to some of the Chinese players living here about the system there. It is brutal. Argue with your coach? Your career is basically over. Make the Chinese National Team? Your coach might require you to pay them a lot of money. If you can't afford it, you can go back to your province team. I hope this isn't the direction USATT is moving towards. Because most of the team is being selected, it would be a very bad idea to publicly argue with the higher ups or for example refuse to go to one of the training camps. What if one of the people deciding goes to a promising junior and says "Hey you have a problem with your footwork. I can coach you and fix it for $$." What is that junior supposed to say knowing the coach is selecting people for the national or Olympic team. It just seems bad to me.

People make public policy decisions that can be right or wrong all the time. They want more discretion in selecting US team members that support the USATT goals. ITTF and FIFA did something similar to discourage all teams from fielding immigrant national teams just to win medals. For a specific country, it is different from a governing body but the policy rightly or wrongly should be evaluated. The answer isn't always the one you want. In fact I am indifferent to the policy and am okay with all 3 by trials. But what I don't like is people pretending that what is happening is some special evidence of US bigotry in TT when it is almost the same everywhere.

USA Olympic selection process change

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