EJ dust spraying is killing off valuable TT forum contributors

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Yup, you saw the title. After I made a reply in an EJ/Beginner equipment thread, I felt I needed to make this a separate topic of discussion. Admin(s) send out the Goon Squad after Der_Echte on this one. He is asking to get crushed.

For those who do not know EJ = Equipment Junkie... This is a class of player who is so constantly searching for the absolute PERFECT weapon... and that search is endless in terms of energy and monies spent.

If a person were to look at a long list of TT forum topics, one would see that threads about this equipment (fanboy posts), which equipment to use (EJ or new player not listening) or who pros are using (fanboy posts) so totally dominate the discussions... to an extent that decent minded TT contributors will not participate.

The most egregious kind of thread is where a beginning or low level player makes a thread asking what to use... gets good advice, then immediately creates a purchase list of 20 rubbers/blades that nearly all of them are not very appropriate for that player's level and performance. This is the low-level EJ who must know it all, since they will never listen to players 10-15 levels higher than them, nor listen to experienced/effective coaches.

We have these kind of threads on the forum like EVERY WEEK. Experienced players/coaches reply every week, and the syndrome seems to spread worse than a Sexually Transmitted Disease or Government Propaganda.

It is almost like an enemy of Table Tennis development flew a helicopter all over the world and sprayed confusion dust into the breathing air.

So many experienced players have replied with sound advice week after week after week after week... so much that many experienced players absolutely will not come on the TT forums and share their good knowledge and motivation. I know so many in this situation, both members and perspective members. In fact, all this EJ and fan-boy talk about equipment dominating 75% of all TT discussions is a big turn-off and is in my opinion the number one reason why good and elite amateur players do not participate in TT forums. Pros... another matter - the same fanboy crowd tries to TELL THEM how to play TT... so for obvious reasons, you see damn few pros on TT forums... and when you do, their stay is VERY SHORT.

Many coaches will disagree upon EXACTLY what is slow equipment and the right blade/rubber/sponge thickness… and with time this will change too. Sriver and Mark V used to be the top end offensive rubbers and some OFF- to OFF blades used to called missile launchers.

What is tried and true is to use equipment (combination of blade/rubber, but mostly rubber here) that allows you to feel the ball, NOT have crazy rebound, is EASIER to generate spin, and EASY to control the height, depth, and placement of your shots.

Usually, this means a blade with feel, some flex, feedback, and controllable speed. Usually, this is a 5 or 7 ply blade in the ALL to OFF- range. Not always, but mostly. This allows a player a great chance to feel the ball and develop strokes with effective coaching.

Usually, this means a middle of the road modern Offensive Control rubber. Often it means use a soft to medium soft sponge, but not always. (Some players have a better impact early and can use harder sponged rubbers) Usually, it is a control rubber in the class of Vega Europe - a rubber that is not ridiculous in speed, has a good topsheet that is supple, a pip structure that allows the topsheet to easily wrap the ball, a sponge that is dynamic enough to give an OK top end, and a sponge that is not high catapult.

I could pimp up Nexy Karis M (the least hard version), that rubber is absolute tops when it comes to handling incoming spin... and it is absolute linear totally void of any catapult (that is why many players hate on it... they all want a catapult missile launcher)… but you do not see me promoting that rubber much.

Exactly which rubber one decides to use is not nearly as important as SELECTING AN APPROPRIATE middle of the road control rubber and blade.

This last sentence is pretty much spoken loud and clear EVERY DAMNED WEEK, if not every day... YET, the confusion dust spread by the enemies of TT is worse and worse.

I blame several things for this...

- TT Companies... they make money every time this dust is sprayed... KAH-CHING !!! I say that freely and truthfully... and I am an equipment re-seller.

- TT Forums... forums make it SO DAMN EASY to share the EJ virus and incubate it with threads fretting over this and that.

- TT Players... Ultimately, it is the player's crazy desires to find that ULTIMATE WEAPON that so totally over-ride logic and sound advice.

There are HUNDREDS of rubbers in this class. Every maker makes several of this class. I believe Sriver and Mark V are on the very low end of this class (in terms of dynamic sponge and topsheet) (but not in ease of control - these are still up there). I lot of coaches will want to cane me for saying and believing that.

There are HUNDREDS of control class blades out there... but we all wanna talk about the latest $450 USD "Super" version or the latest tech in missile launching... which of course are not appropriate for developing players... yet we see so many developing players or lower level players discussing this stuff... and making poor choices of equipment.
 
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So, what are you suggesting we should do? I personally think you can't really do anything about self-declared EJs who LOVE trying different blades and rubbers and discuss them here and elsewhere. They enjoy new experiences, and there is something to be said about getting first hand exposure to different blades and rubbers, just to be able to evaluate forum claims and see whether they apply to you.

Giving advice to new users is different, they are bewildered by choice. Many forums have 'sticky' thread for good first bat recommendation and moderators squash any new thread where it's obvious OP did not read it. It probably would help if forum regulars had some restraint and did not chime in with redundant recommendations: if someone already recommended a decent setup, what's the point with putting forward another look-alike, just because you have some experience with it? If 5+ people chime in with very similar suggestions (different brands, but more or less the same outcome) - OP confusion level just went up 5X. I suspect an answer of "go talk to your coach or club mate, they saw you play" is even better.

As far as what would it take to have higher level players/coaches to participate more, I'm stumped. I have a suspicion they view discussion about equipment minutiae with amusement and simply decide that it's not worth engaging with folks who assign so much importance to a single aspect of the game that is not that meaningful in the end.
 
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I think it is okay that people ask for help. But i find it strange that so many posters here think that changing equipment Will solve problems that are more related to the technique. It is interesting that they think of changing the equipment first and not about changing the technique. Or atleast it seems so i think by the threads posted. Maybe they want the easy way or Maybe they Do not know better. I Do not know.
 
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Just gonna leave this here. Since many say H3 unboosted is unplayable.

Viscaria/crappy H3 Neo/Hexer HD that was 59-month-old. Glued with Haifu water-based. Never boosted. Never came off the blade once. Played with DFish 40+, the shitty cellulose acetate.
pLa2agQ.gif

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A week or 2 later, Swat/crappy H3/Ventus Spin that had been sitting in the cardboard box for 3 years. Glued with Finezip. Completely stock. Played with DHS D40+ when it was first released.
RvNze1u.gif
 
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As far as what would it take to have higher level players/coaches to participate more, I'm stumped. I have a suspicion they view discussion about equipment minutiae with amusement and simply decide that it's not worth engaging with folks who assign so much importance to a single aspect of the game that is not that meaningful in the end.

The impression I got from talking to better players/coaches is that they value deliberate practice and/or getting coaching far far above fiddling with equipment. Posting (regularly) on forums is not even on their radar. So we should be really thankful for any piece of advice from folks like yogibear, tony and lula.
 
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The problem to EJ is internet. Like in RL u don't believe 100% your doctor but search for information yourself.

Second problem is the availability and marketing of the big firms. U always think u can get smth better. Hasn't the dating game for example developed into the same area?

Third the owner of this website is part of the circle. If I watch all the reviews and the praises it's clear I want to try it out or at least ask if this could suit me.

Now to my story and why EJ hindered my development. One senior cared about me and gave me a perfect setup to develop. I guess he is top 30% at least in my country while I was a starting beginner in adult age. Instead of taking his setup (Grubba with soft sponged sriver) I knew better ofc. Now after trying out 10 rubbers and 5 blades I did land at a similar setup he recommended me at begin. I am still playing the Grubba with mid° rubbers. I am one of the mentioned ppl asking for advises, ignoring them and in the end coming back to a developing friendly setup.

Last thing. In reality ppl in my club with more above average players (1500+) don't play anything popular. Even with me gathering alot of information in that regard I know maybe only 20% of the EQ they use thus this forum isn't a good representation of the ppl playing at club (successfully). Improvement is hard, long and u can't see it thus ppl will always search for a quick magic solution, not only in regard of TT.
 
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Is that you with eye glasses playing? Anyway, good power from both wings it seems.

Just gonna leave this here. Since many say H3 unboosted is unplayable.

Viscaria/crappy H3 Neo/Hexer HD that was 59-month-old. Glued with Haifu water-based. Never boosted. Never came off the blade once. Played with DFish 40+, the shitty cellulose acetate.
cache.php

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A week or 2 later, Swat/crappy H3/Ventus Spin that had been sitting in the cardboard box for 3 years. Glued with Finezip. Completely stock. Played with DHS D40+ when it was first released.
cache.php
 
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Yup, and that's after 3 years of hiatus. I've slowed down a lot and my FH has actually gotten a lot weaker.

Nice to hear that you are playing again! I agree that you can play with china rubber unboosted, but i feel like it is easier if the sponge is not rockhard.

I see two penholders in the video. I am curious, how common is it nowdays in asia that players are using penhold? alot of older players or also younger players?
 
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I started playing tt from 1989 and i stopped almost 10 years later because I had to study something (every Greek that respect himself, do that). I can say I played very well and my technic was pretty good. All those years I changed two bats. From tibhar G.Bohm allround (5ply) to tibhar Charly Roesch (offensive bat, 6ply!!!!!!). The Charly Roesch was the best bat I had ever play. As for the rubbers, I started with striver and changed to tibhar rapid. You probably don't know those bats and rubbers but there was the only I could find in my sity. (we had no internet back then).
I started again tt 6 months ago and the Charly Roesch has been destroyed, because all those years I left the rubbers on the bat. So a friend of mine which is a seller of tt equipment and remembered my play, suggested I should play with a Donic Baum Esprit (5ply+2carbon) with Donic Baracuda. I took his advise and it was total disaster. Too fast and with no 'feeling' of the ball. 4 months I could not get any satisfaction from my play and I changed to the safe choice of stiga allround classic with hurricane 2 Neo FH and Donic Baracuda BH. Everything changed from the first day I used this combination and I probably keep this for many years.
I also find out that in my club most of the players have extremely fast rubbers with carbon bats and they play less years than my. A simple top spin and their block is outside of the table. I tried to play with their rackets and I could not land anything on the table. I explain to them their problem but they don't care, so i use this to my advantage.
As for the forum, this is something that happens to every forum that exist. From cars and motorcycle to table tennis and football.
 
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So, what are you suggesting we should do?

That is a good question.

I neve really intended to address that with the thread. I only wanted to vent a little and make a record of the situation... which I think I accomplished OK enough.

Besides jamming a USB cable into some one's ear really deep and uploading reasonable parameters… I reckon the situation is gunna be like it is.

There are some in California and New York who feel a new 70% tax ought to get the job done.

As far as what would it take to have higher level players/coaches to participate more, I'm stumped.

I'm not stumped as to what it would take. I have talked with dozens of players who are higher level than me and are forum lurkers... Every one of them tell me that the main reasons they do not join and post are that they constantly see players 10 levels below then show a know-it-all attitude, rarely listen to advise, then try to tell the higher level players what to do. The answer to that is for these types not to be like that.

What is gunna stump people is HOW to accomplish that. I would have some suggestions, but TTD owner Dan (or any reasonable TT forum owner/Admin) would really not like my suggestions. Since the majority of people who click on links or visit the forum to up the visiting statistics are this crowd, if they didn't visit the forum, the forum's stats would be crap and there would be no way for the forum to convince advertisers to advertise or internally use the forum for a TT business.

So, I am not gunna go there and be like that.

You might have seen a long running thread I made trying to convince a higher level player to join TTD. Sergey would be an instant addition to the net positive of the forum. He truly has a lot to offer and another perspective... I will not give up getting him to join and share. It will be worth it.

There are of course much more charismatic TTD members on the forum than Der_Echte… and it wouldn't hurt for them to convince good folk to join and share... that crowd could probably do a 10x better job than what small results I have so far.

May way I am trying is love and persistence, with some fun trouble making sprinkled in.
 
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I think it is okay that people ask for help. But i find it strange that so many posters here think that changing equipment Will solve problems that are more related to the technique. It is interesting that they think of changing the equipment first and not about changing the technique. Or atleast it seems so i think by the threads posted. Maybe they want the easy way or Maybe they Do not know better. I Do not know.

Some people have played for years, are not growing, and want to use equipment that help then play some more like they want to play.

This is a natural evolution. What I describe in the thread is hilarious silly... and Greg Letts touches on a chunk of this in his vids making fun of ITTF and TT forum behavior.

For those who were not on TT forums for a decade plus... Greg Letts ran one of the largest TT forums for YEARS... it was a very tough task.
 
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I started playing tt from 1989 and i stopped almost 10 years later because I had to study something (every Greek that respect himself, do that). I can say I played very well and my technic was pretty good. All those years I changed two bats. From tibhar G.Bohm allround (5ply) to tibhar Charly Roesch (offensive bat, 6ply!!!!!!). The Charly Roesch was the best bat I had ever play. As for the rubbers, I started with striver and changed to tibhar rapid. You probably don't know those bats and rubbers but there was the only I could find in my sity. (we had no internet back then).
I started again tt 6 months ago and the Charly Roesch has been destroyed, because all those years I left the rubbers on the bat. So a friend of mine which is a seller of tt equipment and remembered my play, suggested I should play with a Donic Baum Esprit (5ply+2carbon) with Donic Baracuda. I took his advise and it was total disaster. Too fast and with no 'feeling' of the ball. 4 months I could not get any satisfaction from my play and I changed to the safe choice of stiga allround classic with hurricane 2 Neo FH and Donic Baracuda BH. Everything changed from the first day I used this combination and I probably keep this for many years.
I also find out that in my club most of the players have extremely fast rubbers with carbon bats and they play less years than my. A simple top spin and their block is outside of the table. I tried to play with their rackets and I could not land anything on the table. I explain to them their problem but they don't care, so i use this to my advantage.
As for the forum, this is something that happens to every forum that exist. From cars and motorcycle to table tennis and football.

I love this post. Hahaha. Well said.


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iamsan said:
Third the owner of this website is part of the circle. If I watch all the reviews and the praises it's clear I want to try it out or at least ask if this could suit me.

I do not blame Dan one bit for creating TTD and the additional features

Any reasonable person who was around when Dan started TTD around a decade ago will know how he started and why. Dan had a vision, a plan.

Dan wanted to make a top rate forum... and then have it evolve into many other things.

- TT Pro Vid center
- TT Equipment Review Center
- TT News Center
- TTD Coaching center
- TT Store

No other forum before TTD was able to put it all together over time... and it took Dan many years to get TTD going and into what it is now.

Dan's vision was to make high quality TT products (Yes, a forum is a TT product) and turn it into a way to make a living from Table Tennis. I think that is the dream of many TT players - to find a way to stay in the sport they love and make some kind of living from it.

Dan would not be able to leverage any of this if TTD did not have quality and the high number of visitor statistics TTD has. I do not suspect Dan makes a significant amount of money directly from TT gear reviews, whether it is on his review vid channel or written ones in the Equipment Review Center... yet all the visitor traffic stats allow him to get advertising...

With time and trust from TTD members, Dan was able to introduce live and on-line coaching. I suspect that is and will be the lion's share of what will support him staying in TT, with some supplemental help from the TT store.

If Dan REALLY wanted to expand advertising, he would create some busy looking TTD GOON SQUAD jersey design and mail those off to a few dozen players. :D
 
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We have these kind of threads on the forum like EVERY WEEK.

If only it was limited to every week. Every hour. [emoji2]

I am entertained by the low level players who insist on using stuff that is clearly too fast for them. And then they start recommending stuff and acting like they understand equipment and you hear what they say and scratch your head wondering how what they feel seems so,So off base compared to how the product actually plays.
 
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I'm not stumped as to what it would take. I have talked with dozens of players who are higher level than me and are forum lurkers... Every one of them tell me that the main reasons they do not join and post are that they constantly see players 10 levels below then show a know-it-all attitude, rarely listen to advise, then try to tell the higher level players what to do. The answer to that is for these types not to be like that.

I kind of like the idea that, if you want to critique someone’s skills you have to post footage of yourself. [emoji2]
 
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This is a non issue.
Either people will talk about equipment with ppl in their club, or they talk about it online in forums.
They want to talk and ask and see reviews before they buy and learn from the experience of others. That's it, it's a common and beneficial function of forums.

I would suggest that authoritarians who want to take away people's freedoms is much more a detriment to forums, whether offline or on. But of course, I offer this view as part of the discussion which in whole is benign, as is any open discussion.
 
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Echte, i think that players and coaches that know alot is the opposite of the know-it-all-attitude because they have been around for so long so they know that tabletennis can be played different ways and that technique is pretty subjective. So i can imagine these guys are pretty humble, while beginners have not understand this yet so they have more of a know-it-all-attitude.

Upsidedowncarl, i think it is okay to give critique as long as it is helpful and not in an hurtful way. It sure would be fun to see how good everyone is! but i do not know if thay say so much. I do not think you need to be that good yourself to be able to know what you are talking about. A lot of coaches can not play so well but know alot about tabletennis. I also feel that some very good tabletennis players do not know much about technique or equipment, so they are not good coaches. I think we all can help eachother despite the level, as long as we have a nice attitude and try to be humble.
 
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Well, from a beginner's point of view... if you just got started playing table tennis, then you go online and try to find a new setup to advance with - what do you see?

As der said, HUNDREDS! HUNDREDS! of different rubbers, blades, etc.

So it's only reasonable for a noobie to come on and ask for advice on equipment. Even if it's been asked a million times... they probably don't use the search button, and if they do, they most likely think their own situation deserves its own post!

Overall, there is a lack of TT related coaching, instructionals, and whatnot. If you want to talk solely about technique and advancing as a player, you can hit a wall fairly soon or post a thread and see zero replies. Most can't speak any of the asian languages where TT is much more popular, along with the videos for it - meaning they rarely locate anything worthwhile. So what then does the TT obsessed goon have? Well now, an ABUNDANCE OF EQUIPMENT to discuss!

Especially for junk players -- who use pips, anti / might be a blocker or a chopper. The information for them to read/view or write and discuss is very limited. Since they are ostracized a bit from the TT community at large, anyway. In the USA, you can't find a good chopping coach just about anywhere! And a frictionless anti/long pip blocking coach? Never heard of one!

To me, people LOVE the sport and don't mind spending money on it. They don't have good coaches around, probably not a great many good players, so talking about advanced technique or this or that is generally not something they know much about... but they can have fun trying new equipment, seeing what the other EJs thought about it, and have fun tinkering with equipment as opposed to improving their play dramatically -- since they have more access to buying equipment vs high level training.
 
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