EJ dust spraying is killing off valuable TT forum contributors

UpSideDownCarl said:

Lula, I agree with everything said here. I don’t think posting video is about level. It is about empathy.

Often when someone has done the work to get to a decent level they do post with empathy, kindness and compassion and they post in a constructive way when giving a critique of someone else’s play. Not always. But often.

And often, when someone is giving weird, unhelpful, overly critical or, sometimes downright ridiculous commentary, on someone else’s skills shown in video footage, they have never seen themselves play.

Frequently, once one of those people who tends to give mean or crazy commentary has everyone else see their own skills from video footage, their commentary has more compassion and tends to be more constructive. Not always. But it makes that much more likely to be the case.

But it is also about understanding who is giving the criticism.

A few years ago there was this kid giving all this crazy coaching feedback. It was things like: your stroke needs to be much bigger like Ma Long’s,” while critiquing a fairly adept touch shot. And he would start these comments with things like: “back when I was as bad as you are....”. When we finally got him to post video, it was actually clear that he did not even have the technique to have strokes. He was pushing his racket straight forward instead of taking a swing. He may have watched Ma Long videos. But he had no idea what he was and was not actually doing. He thought he was doing a perfect replica of Ma Long’s FH and really he was doing a very strange pushing movement.

Not that that really matters. Everyone has to start from somewhere. But if you heard what he said and thought, “maybe he knows what he is talking about,” a lot of what he said could have been dangerous and caused injuries. [emoji2]

There was another guy who was explaining the physics of looping backspin. And when he posted footage of himself “looping” backspin from a robot, it was clear he was just making direct contact and it was not a loop.

Seeing the footage helped people put what he was saying into a more complete context.

So, for sure, someone who is not at a high level can give good advice to someone at a higher level. But the anonymity that the internet can foster has its usefulness and its downsides.

When everyone knows what someone plays like and....sort of....who they are, the person is more likely to behave well when giving feedback. When someone is completely anonymous it sometimes allows certain people to think they have the cover to behave badly.

And that was the behavior Der_ was explaining keeps a lot of higher level players from staying on forums like this.

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I think to sum up Carl's post...

WELCOME TO THE INTERNET!

yeh what was the name of this young kid ? it was fun.
we don't see him posting at all nowadays...

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

yeh what was the name of this young kid ? it was fun.
we don't see him posting at all nowadays...

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Is this the same chicken flapping stroke guy you're talking about?

It was both hilarious but really annoying to me.

laistrogian said:

Is this the same chicken flapping stroke guy you're talking about?

It was both hilarious but really annoying to me.

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don't remember the name but Carl DerEchte and NL were not too happy about talking to this guy... I think we found out he was a high school student playing in his school with slippers and jeans. It was fun to follow the conversation with popcorn

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

don't remember the name but Carl DerEchte and NL were not too happy about talking to this guy... I think we found out he was a high school student playing in his school with slippers and jeans. It was fun to follow the conversation with popcorn

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'Archosaurus', I think. Yes, what happened to him? He kind of disappeared...

yes Archosaurus. LOL

He disappeared the way of the Tyrannosaurus...

or more likely he finished his puberty thats why we don't see him anymore. I kind of miss him.

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

yes Archosaurus. LOL

He disappeared the way of the Tyrannosaurus...

or more likely he finished his puberty thats why we don't see him anymore. I kind of miss him.

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Thought he’s a college kid.

laistrogian said:

Thought he’s a college kid.

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By now he probably is in college.

pgpg said:

By now he probably is in college.

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He tried teaching someone how to improve FH loop as if he's explaining how to build an airplane.

He talked as if he's at least 1900. He was hitting like a below 900

laistrogian said:

He tried teaching someone how to improve FH loop as if he's explaining how to build an airplane.

He talked as if he's at least 1900. He was hitting like a below 900

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The most wonderful aspect of that was how patient UpsideDownCarl was during that thread/discussion/debacle.

He ('Archo') also made appearance at OOAK, with a VERY long post on very advanced and little known details of Chinese FH loop technique...

For pros all those EJ or nonEJ forum opinions do not matter at all. They are making the news.

For all others as more $$$ are you bringing into TT - gear, tournaments, etc - better for the game. Who cares about amateurs and their skills, cmon. It is not a goal at all, but to fight with your stroke probability - it is not depend on your skills or setup. Just keep moving, thats it.

So I'm personally on the side of EJ just because they put bucks into this great sport.

hell said:

For pros all those EJ or nonEJ forum opinions do not matter at all. They are making the news.

For all others as more $$$ are you bringing into TT - gear, tournaments, etc - better for the game. Who cares about amateurs and their skills, cmon. It is not a goal at all, but to fight with your stroke probability - it is not depend on your skills or setup. Just keep moving, thats it.

So I'm personally on the side of EJ just because they put bucks into this great sport.

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Exactly the way I think too.

While the discussion about posting videos and criticism and kids who know nothing is all very interesting, it's hardly the topic of this thread. The story here is the wonderful world of the EJ.

I am deeply convinced that 95% of posting about equipment is nonsense. Speed 10, Spin 4, Control 7 - the kinds of judgements people make about equipment are entirely subjective without a shred of scientific assessment to back them up. People continue to offer opinions about nonsense such as "dwell time" and "the feel of the ball on the blade", things which we know objectively don't even exist in the real world.

Does that mean such posts are useless? Not at all. They are quite helpful in telling us how much Individual A likes piece of equipment Z. And that may or may not help Individual B decide if they will like equipment Z. A waste of my time, but then I don't have to read it, do I?

bircham boi said:

While the discussion about posting videos and criticism and kids who know nothing is all very interesting, it's hardly the topic of this thread. The story here is the wonderful world of the EJ.

I am deeply convinced that 95% of posting about equipment is nonsense. Speed 10, Spin 4, Control 7 - the kinds of judgements people make about equipment are entirely subjective without a shred of scientific assessment to back them up. People continue to offer opinions about nonsense such as "dwell time" and "the feel of the ball on the blade", things which we know objectively don't even exist in the real world.

Does that mean such posts are useless? Not at all. They are quite helpful in telling us how much Individual A likes piece of equipment Z. And that may or may not help Individual B decide if they will like equipment Z. A waste of my time, but then I don't have to read it, do I?

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I agree.
Its all subjective and products work for different players of all levels. A faster blade may feel comfortable for a low ranked player, and vice versa. What does it matter, especially if they like it and are having fun! Surely thats why we all play the sport to have fun? Some have fun from talking about equipment and trying things it seems more than actually playing. Thats cool, am I the same no, but i'm not gonna complain if thats how some people like to go about stuff.

I tried a different blade after seeing it be recommended on here by people over and over and over. I really don't like it and cant get on with it. But hey thats how it goes.

Others have said it already but EJing is not about the human desire to improve but what human beings do when they have wealth and choice. While it is not an absolute, human beings tend to hunt and gather things. So looking for the best tools is just human nature and in this era of wealth, having multiple options leads to people trying out more stuff. Maybe some people only wear one suit or set of clothes. I am not one of them.

I am an EJ and I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. I think the real issue with online EJing is that there is a disproportionate focus on what the results of EJing gives you vs what it realistically can give you.

First and foremost, let us dispense with silly statements, some of which I have being guilty of writing without proper qualification like "equipment doesn't matter" or "equipment matters".

It is clear as some people wrote in this thread that equipment does matter. Even Timo Boll when reviewing his blade discusses what happens when he tries Tamca 5000 blades and that the problem is the lack of arc which he struggles with not on the easy higher balls but on the low balls. Playing a hitter style with inverted is possible but is in some ways not as optimal as doing it with short pips. Same for chopping topspin - better to use long pips than inverted for most players unless they want to do a lot of lobbing on the backhand. There are people who have made careers out of being exceptions but you get the gist.

The problem begins when a player says that they want to improve and their equipment is not letting them improve. Here, the most common issue is lack of appropriate instruction. And inappropriate instruction comes in different forms. Some coaches do not investigate the equipment of their students. Others will not at least present a student with a theory of equipment to work with. Finally, some coaches do not get their students out of the bad habit of focusing on whether the ball hits the table and into the good habit of trying to hit the ball the way they should be hitting it. Older learners want to hit the ball hard and on the table and to do so, they often compromise on proper strokes.

Another facet of inappropriate instruction is that unless someone has consistent technique, which is loaded into muscle memory, it is extremely difficult to know how much of your issues are coming from your technique and how much are coming from the equipment. When I didn't loop, I used to struggle with a lot of equipment as I didn't know how to use spin to reduce my margin of error. If I was having a good day in my home club and my timing was on, I would win. If I was having a bad day and my timing was off, or I was at an away club where the air was different and the tables were slower, I would be missing balls against unfamiliar opponents. And then I would be angry about using an DEF blade and wish I was using an ALL+ or OFF+ or whatever the day seemed to dictate with the weather.

I tell people in modern table tennis that if you are a modern topspin player, until you hit roughly 1600 or so with your looping technique, equipment doesn't really matter because you will not really know what it does for you. If you are playing for over 4 years and below 1600 as an adult, then your technique has likely matured and my advice at that point is similar. It is when you have 1600+ or maturing technique that equipment investigation can yield some benefits. But the benefits are not more than a small percentage of your level. And they are more to be found in switching across classes of speed and spin in rubber (DEF vs ALL vs OFF) vs changing from one ALL blade to another ALL blade or one OFF blade to another OFF blade. But if your technique is not stable, all these evaluations will just be a waste of time.

One of the underrated aspects of EJing is how it makes you feel. It is common for people to denigrate the importance of subjectively feeling good about your equipment. But in fact, I partly EJ because I want to feel good about my equipment. What has surprised me though is how my taste in equipment has changed especially with the new plastic ball. No, not the speed per say which is still OFF+ to OFF, but that outer plies I used to hate like Koto, Walnut and Mahogany I now like and outer plies I once loved like hinoki and limba feel dead to me. Not sure what caused it but it is what it is.

To cut a long story short, it is the EJ who comes here thinking that getting new equipment will make him a radically better player, when he would never argue that having a better car will clearly make him a better driver or that having better bicycle will make him a faster cyclist. These things add 2% to 3% at most and 2-3% can be a lot when the margins are thin (where we have high level technique that is almost or very mature). But it is not a lot when looking at the bigger picture of TT improvement. That I think is where a lot of the confusion comes from.

jammmail said:

I agree.
Its all subjective and products work for different players of all levels. A faster blade may feel comfortable for a low ranked player, and vice versa. What does it matter, especially if they like it and are having fun! Surely thats why we all play the sport to have fun? Some have fun from talking about equipment and trying things it seems more than actually playing. Thats cool, am I the same no, but i'm not gonna complain if thats how some people like to go about stuff.

I tried a different blade after seeing it be recommended on here by people over and over and over. I really don't like it and cant get on with it. But hey thats how it goes.

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Der_Echte was not really making an argument that we should prohibit all equipment discussion on this forum, I think: his main points were that A) these threads suck out a lot of oxygen from discussion of more important TT things, like technique, tactics, mental game etc. and B) it indirectly suppresses participation by coaches and higher level players in this forum, since all they see is constant flood of threads about most recent blade/rubber, koto vs. limba, 'what should I get as my first setup' threads etc.

In other words, equipment is probably responsible for 20% of your performance in TT(and I'm being VERY generous), but it feels like 80% of discussion is about it somehow.

pgpg said:

Der_Echte was not really making an argument that we should prohibit all equipment discussion on this forum,

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I never said he was - I just don't think people should be too hard on people if they do like discussing equipment if they want to. Its a forum, people reply to stuff there more interested in.

If people want to create more discussion on other 'more important things' like technique and tactics etc go ahead. I would LOVE to see more posts on that! If there were more threads started maybe people would discuss more?

Part of the problem is qualification though. If i said 'I need help with this particular serve' or 'How do I be more consistent closing out games' etc without footage its almost impossible. And realistically its only going to be a small pool of people who can contribute as it needs to be a better player (subjective without footage) or someone who coaches. People can discuss equipment easier as its more accessable. Not saying thats right - its just its understandable it happens.

LordPippington said:

Well, from a beginner's point of view... if you just got started playing table tennis, then you go online and try to find a new setup to advance with - what do you see?

As der said, HUNDREDS! HUNDREDS! of different rubbers, blades, etc.

So it's only reasonable for a noobie to come on and ask for advice on equipment. Even if it's been asked a million times... they probably don't use the search button, and if they do, they most likely think their own situation deserves its own post!

Overall, there is a lack of TT related coaching, instructionals, and whatnot. If you want to talk solely about technique and advancing as a player, you can hit a wall fairly soon or post a thread and see zero replies. Most can't speak any of the asian languages where TT is much more popular, along with the videos for it - meaning they rarely locate anything worthwhile. So what then does the TT obsessed goon have? Well now, an ABUNDANCE OF EQUIPMENT to discuss!

Especially for junk players -- who use pips, anti / might be a blocker or a chopper. The information for them to read/view or write and discuss is very limited. Since they are ostracized a bit from the TT community at large, anyway. In the USA, you can't find a good chopping coach just about anywhere! And a frictionless anti/long pip blocking coach? Never heard of one!

To me, people LOVE the sport and don't mind spending money on it. They don't have good coaches around, probably not a great many good players, so talking about advanced technique or this or that is generally not something they know much about... but they can have fun trying new equipment, seeing what the other EJs thought about it, and have fun tinkering with equipment as opposed to improving their play dramatically -- since they have more access to buying equipment vs high level training.

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My congratulations! As an EJ case (recovering though) I think your post LordPippington is perfect and catches the real cause of EJing. Can you imagine that every league match my amateur team had this season I played with a different setup ...

Besides what LordPippington already described ... I was also looking for a setup that would complement the Zhang Jike's perfect fh stroke, which power "was taken from the ground" ... for that I needed H3 National not really available few years ago ... I didn't boost, so ... I was looking for a Euro/Jap alternative ...

Looking backwards, I could let the "old" setups stayed untouched and not disassemble them. Sometimes I was going in circles with those blades and rubbers combinations ...

Brs said:

This forum is outstanding for threads about pro tournaments and national champs. Lots of good video links, and analysis, and zeio's translations. It's worth ignoring the 100 weekly ej threads to get to those.

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Precisely Brs ... : )

perham said:

I stopped EJing since last year and I never felt better. [...]

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Interesting, it was "last year" ... maybe the new, less spinny abs ball is actually less sensitive to the equipment differences ... or maybe I just got tired ... ; ) besides even Zhang Jike started playing T05Hard, at least for a while...

For me it really was no external factor. I just realized that no matter the equipment, I need to improve my technique to get more joy from the sport. To be honest, if you give me any average setup I’ll get 90% the same results I get now. My current setup is definitely fast, and maybe too fast. But that also means that I can’t make many mistakes. It has helped me gain a lot of feeling for blocking, and when I start attacking, it’s very rewarding. At some point I understood that there are many many setups that are better than mine if I intended to optimize for a purpose (e.g. to learn faster or to be more consistent, etc.) but none will be as satisfying as “owning” my bat, i.e. the feeling that arises after months or years of playing with the same setup. This was my journey out of EJ phase, and I’m not going back there anytime soon.


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I confess I used to be an EJ addict. Now I am in rehab. But it is no harm to post EJ in the forum, though. I think it is fun that way.