Knowing when to change rubber type (or not)?

Reading this with great interest.

One question to Lula & the experts (which may sound really stupid): Is it not possible to play a fairly "flat" game with inverted? Is really looping the norm for everyone? I get that it's great to use loops to open up backspin but a flat hit can be really effective instead of a counter loop.

I quite often play with a lady who used to be elite classed in the 80i/90es and her loops are really tame but she hits through most loops with smashes/flat hits instead of counter looping. Most people ask her if she plays with SP but she's using Xiom Vega something. It's obviously not going to make anyone a world champ etc.

StuartMarquis said:

Of course I would love my son to become a professional TT player. But aside from that I just want my son to reach the highest level that he possibly can. The dilemma is does he do that by sticking with inverted (which is potentially not the most natural fit) or does he switch to SP (which might be a more natural fit but are more limited etc).

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A parent posted a similar question on a Hong Kong forum close to 3 years ago. His daughter had played for 2 years and had hit a bottleneck despite the effort. She wondered if it had to do with style and wanted to switch to pips. Most people, some who play pips, gave him more or less the same answers you received here and I gave the same answer I did here.

http://www.hkttf.com/viewthread.php?tid=82366&extra=&page=1]

轉粒仔也無妨，從中可能會發掘到對反貼有幫助既體會，增加對球既理解，擴闊視野

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(It wouldn't hurt to switch to pips, from which you may discover something helpful for inverted, increase your understanding of the game, and broaden your horizons.)

My reasoning is that it could be too late by the time your son finds out he isn't cut out for the inverted style, as pointed out by Li Xiaodong in a 2004 article on the prospect of raw-pips - 生胶 想说爱你不容易(raw-pips, it's difficult to say I love you)

生胶路在何方?
...
现在都是原本用两面反胶,或者速度太慢,或者正手差反手好的选手,就让其改生胶了,但我觉得练生胶的人其实选材应该更严格。...
横板生胶打法目前的确面临困境,但主要问题也就限于前三板上手手段少、接弧圈欠稳定等几个环节中,并不像直板正胶的处境那么艰难,从理论上说,如果打法设t日导好,还是郁目当生命力的。特别是在女子乒坛中,应该更容易点,因为女选手的旋转比男选手稍弱些,普通旋转的发力、相持和转攻都不会给生胶造成过大的压力。男子里面横板生胶要想出头,确实相对困难些,球感要更好些、基本攻要更扎实、理解要更深些。我们也盼着,最好男选手里面出一个,这样让这种打法有点说服力,要是总没有人打出来,基层就没人愿意培养了。

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(Where's the raw-pips heading?
...
Currently, it's always those who play double-inverted, or who are too slow, or whose BH is better than FH that are told to switch to raw-pips. Actually, I feel that the criteria for raw-pips should be stricter than that.
...
The shakehand raw-pips style is indeed facing difficulties, but the main problem is mostly in the limited options in 3rd ball attacks and the lack of stability in returning loops. It is not as difficult as what the penhold raw-pips style faces. In theory, if the style of play is well-designed, it still has considerable vitality. Especially in women's table tennis, it should be easier, because the spin of female players is slightly weaker than that of male players. The force of typical spin, the rallies and the attacks will not cause too much pressure on raw-pips. It is indeed more difficult for men to make it big. The ball touch has to be better, the fundamentals more solid, and the comprehension deeper. We are also looking forward to a male player making it big, so that this style has more backing. If no one makes it big, no one would be willing to take it up at the grass-root level.)

mart1nandersson said:

Reading this with great interest.

One question to Lula & the experts (which may sound really stupid): Is it not possible to play a fairly "flat" game with inverted? Is really looping the norm for everyone? I get that it's great to use loops to open up backspin but a flat hit can be really effective instead of a counter loop.

I quite often play with a lady who used to be elite classed in the 80i/90es and her loops are really tame but she hits through most loops with smashes/flat hits instead of counter looping. Most people ask her if she plays with SP but she's using Xiom Vega something. It's obviously not going to make anyone a world champ etc.

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Is it possible? Yeah, it is.

It is quite common in the women's game (both at amateur and professional level) to see a "flatter" game style.

Obviously there are very different levels of "flat", and I'd guess that a lot of the quick hitting from the female pros which might look flat to some people, actually have a lot of topspin (just taken off the bounce rather than the mens style of leaving it and looping back).

But I know some very good female (and some male) players who don't give you a lot of spin to work with, and flat hit through a lot of opponents top spin.

However........ A good heavy top spin player will always beat a good flat hitter (in my opinion).

So if we bring it back to the OP's son, whose 10 - They definitely need to learn how to loop before making any judgements on his future - He doesn't have a "style" yet, and it's impossible to know what will end up suiting him down the line.

You can only make that judgement call once you've developed as a player and can do pretty much everything already.

But on your question of "Is it possible to play a flat game with inverted?" - Yes it absolutely is.

NDH said:

Obviously there are very different levels of "flat", and I'd guess that a lot of the quick hitting from the female pros which might look flat to some people, actually have a lot of topspin (just taken off the bounce rather than the mens style of leaving it and looping back).

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Exactly! I've often noticed that the ball is spinning violently when picking it up form the floor after they've killed the point with what looked like a flat hit. There's usually zero arc so the actual hit really looks like a flat hit / smash even though I can grasp that there's some top spin involved.

Sorry to the OP for asking a somewhat off topic question and thanks to NDH for the answer!

StuartMarquis said:

My son (10 years old) has been playing table tennis for about 18 months and receiving relatively regular coaching for about the last year. His game has come on a lot, but the main problem with his game is that he gives away too many points on unforced errors, especially because he has a real tendency to flat hit with his forehand rather than topspin.

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This is a common problem. Take videos of his strokes from the side. The usual cause is not starting the paddle below the ball and rushing forward to meet the ball. Timing is important, he must wait for the ball to come to him so his stroke is more up than forward.

My question (and dilemma) is about how best to proceed. Should he switch to a spinny short pips on the FH (Mattius Falck style) or should he stick with his current set up and just try and work through the issue?

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Stick with the inverted and learn the right timing and stroke. Play against a robot. Listen to the sound of contact. There is a big difference in sound between hitting through the ball and brushing. Don't worry about the brushing just try to reduce the sound of contact by using a more tangential stroke.

Then put a camera angled from corner to corner at about net height. This way it is easy to see the arc of the ball when it loops. You may want to serve multi ball to your son since a robot net would be in the way.
After getting the hang of it multi ball some back spins. Now the stroke must be more up. Reaching forward will usually result in the ball going into the net.

BTW, you can loop with SP when the ball is not moving too fast or has too much top spin but when you can loop with SP it will still require the same technique as with inverted.

mart1nandersson said:

Reading this with great interest.

One question to Lula & the experts (which may sound really stupid): Is it not possible to play a fairly "flat" game with inverted? Is really looping the norm for everyone? I get that it's great to use loops to open up backspin but a flat hit can be really effective instead of a counter loop.

I quite often play with a lady who used to be elite classed in the 80i/90es and her loops are really tame but she hits through most loops with smashes/flat hits instead of counter looping. Most people ask her if she plays with SP but she's using Xiom Vega something. It's obviously not going to make anyone a world champ etc.

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I am not near an expert, but maybe i have some experience about short pimple since i used it for so long.

I think if you flat hit everything it is better to have short pimple. It is designed for that, it is less spin sensitive so it is easier to hit through spin.

But i think inverted works well to flat hit with if you do it on the correct balls. I think the smash i somewhat forgotten in todays tabletennis. It was proably used alot more before. Which is confirmed by the female player. I think it would be good for players to know how to smash well when the ball is higher to be able to kill the ball. I bet the chinese started practice smash after Hao Shaui lost to Michael Maze. Pretty funny, Maze did good lobs but Hao could not smash well enough.

I also think the backhand punch is somewhat forgotten. Waldner were great at this. Truls are somewhat bringing this back.

Was it easier to smash before with the smaller ball? maybe you got more speed then.

But i do think the plastic ball should work well with smashed and backhand punches since it is less spin in the ball so it is easier todo. I think we will see more play close to the table with counterlooping, countersmashing with the new ball. A little like Harimoto. i think his playing style would not be as good with the old ball. Smashing also seem to work well with the new ball since Falck has his highest world ranking at the moment, but maybe he is better in general now. When i started with the new ball i thought it was very hard to smash as hard with the short pimple, but now i think it works okay. maybe it is easier for me to smash more balls now because it is less spin in the ball?

Do you guys think the new ball benefit backhand punches and smashing? since it is less spin, but maybe the ball is to slow.

Sorry if i went away to much from the subject.

Excellent answer Lula!

The reason for my question was due to the fact that I have two training partners who both play with inverted on FH and both are in the same age span (45-55) who both pretty much attack all balls that are high enough with flat hits. Both are properly schooled in quite well known clubs (Ängby and Eslöv) and has played top12 in Sweden in their youth and also in 1st/2nd division.

My point is that flat hitting may not be modern but it can be an effective way of playing TT. Why force someone to loop if flat hitting puts the ball on the table? The OPs kid has only played for a short time and maybe he will excel at smashing balls with inverted within a few years. Looping should obviously also be trained.

I do think flathitting is much more unsafe compared to a loop. Does not matter if you have short pimple or inverted. If you try to smash on a to low ball, there are no arc to put the ball on to the table. This is proably a big reason why many choose to play with inverted and not short pimple. It is not as safe as looping with an arc. But of course if you have really great footwork so you hit the ball at the highest point you could proably smash alot of balls. But it would be easier with short pimple since it is less sensitive to spin.

I do really agree that people should learn from the older players and try to smash when they have the opportunity.

I coach a boy that flathits with inverted. I do not know what to do with him. I want him to try to learn to loop more first before trying short pimples. But it is not going so well for him with looping, so i wonder if he need to train more on it or that he really do not have any talant for it and that it would be better to put a short pimple on his forehand.

What do you guys think? I proably will try a short pimple on his forehand soon. Feels that we have tried to get him to loop, and it have not worked out and i also think he would enjoy it more than inverted and train better and more. I also feel that we do not covering a weakness with the pimples, we are making his strengths better with a short pimple.

I have seen many flat hitting players reach over 2000 USATT level. Sure, not a professional, but a level 10% of our nation never achieves.

In particular, I see 40-50 yr old Russians play a very flat low spin no spin fast bang it around game. There is a 55 yr old Russian dude here who gives fits to much of the 2000+ looper crowd. His hits have next to no spin, he gets to every ball, he is never out of position, his roll shot is difficult to precisely read and very enticing to crush kill attack, but fail... you get the idea.

This gent cannot SPELL the word loop let alone learn it... no one is gunna be able to teach him a spin shot... he just doesn't have the intuitive impact for it. He must have played 30,000 hrs playing a flat game, he isn't gunna learn to loop... waste of time. This guy has only one serve... LONG, usually light topspin, but it can be dead and hard to read so you make errors crush killing it... He cannot topspin an underspin to save his life... but if you try to underspin one of his dead balls and pop it up, you might as well be walking to the scoreboard to add a point to his score before he even hits the ball. It is money in the bank.

Some people are never gunna want to learn a topspin game, so it is useless to try.

The OP's son is 10 and has a big chance to learn a topspin game big time.

Give the kid a better situation to learn a modern topspinning game and see what he does. If not, a coach can still work with what is there well enough.

I'm not a coach or professional level player, but want to chime in here from a short pips hitter's perspective.

Your son is only 10 years old, at this stage not only is his game at an introductory stage but his personal development, understanding of competition, what to do under pressure etc are still inching along. To drastically switch equipment because he has a tendency to flat hit (which is only one small aspect of his overall game) is going to be detrimental to his game.

It took me 1.5 years including regular coaching to bring my level of short pips play to the same as I did with inverted. This was a "forced" relearning process during which I made many mistake, deviated from effective styles, and reached glass ceilings many times. Also, there are either not alot of information about short-pips play or alot of misinformation about it on the internet. Every time you encounter a "problem" you try something and more often than not, backtrack and try something else. A short-pips specialist coach help me immensely to "get back in line" after each of these mistakes, but if you don't have access to these kinds of coaches, you will end up digging some very deep holes.

If just playing for fun, by all means experiment with different equipment. But, you seem to have very high aspirations for his future in TT, and switching to short pips now is only going to be a short-term crutch, won't help him understand the game better.

As this debate is still running, I'd give my advice again - let the kid continue his development with inverted rubbers. Find him a good coach and let him learn the fundamental techniques. It'll be never late to turn to SP and flat hitting, but its much more difficult for a build flatter to turn to looping. The kid is young and in the beginning of his development, don't hinder it just because of some temporary difficulties. Even if it really become clear after a year or two, that he is nothing but a hitter, he still may develope hitting technique with inverted rubbers, SP is the last escape.