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  1. songdavid98 is offline
    says it's not practice if there's no counterattacking
     
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by thekleifheit13
    I've noticed I have to take the bat down less and back more against underspin with the new ball. It feels like you need to dig into the sponge more to grip the ball even with tacky rubber, otherwise you're more likely to have the ball slip. Since I made that change to thicker contact I have way less edge balls and still think I get the same level of spin as with brushier contact, just more speed and consistency.

    David, if you're talking about vs topspin, the two coaches I've worked with have worked to get me to spin through the ball with a flatter stroke. Body rotation gives the power and the wrist/lower arm gives the spin. You're a much higher level than I am and I'm just parroting the coaches, but it did help me.
    I have tried flatter hits, but it's not as consistent, especially on blocks that are low. I can keep trying it out, but there's a limit to what you can do with a flatter hits.
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  2. songdavid98 is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    My usual technique is to hit the ball with solid contact on the side and then push forward. I almost never racket edge unless I am too close to the table to let the ball kick.
    Do you usually stand a bit further away from the table?

    Maybe high-level players stand further away from the table than I thought.

    I will try the side-thing

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    Always go forward

  3. songdavid98 is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    The hitting edge of bat while trying a topspin shot is LATE IMPACT by a fraction. It doesn't take much.

    Of course, it is more consistent to strike the ball with a more open bat and direct impact, but that will cost you spin (unless you have the magic BANG impact of open bat with an H3 like rubber)

    There are some common reasons why we are late in timing.

    - We get to the spot too late (although you can get to position on time and still hit ball with edge of bat)

    - We are using a different bat with a different weight and shape - that changes the timing.

    - Your eyes are not yet used to the hall. It may take 30 minutes to get your eyes even halfway accustomed to the light... then yo move to a different table and cope with different light distribution.

    - The table and floor are reflective of light, and the background is not dark/contrasting the ball. This plays with your perception a lot.

    - You mis-judge the kind of spin and amount... so ball comes earlier than you think.

    - The ball is no longer (or was never) round, so it takes a false bounce. This makes all kind of errors.

    I read somewhere that the pros attributed the majority of their misses several years ago to the balls not being round. I believe what the pros say about this aspect.

    At LA Open 2018, I saw SO MANY PROS hit balls with edge of their bat. The ball used there wasn't a great one and the hall was really crappy with the lighting... not even 200 lux on court and crappy distribution.

    If I have to take a guess, it is the ball, then the light, then the mis-reading of impact as the top three reasons David is hitting the ball with the edge of his bat.

    Another possible reason is that Davis is still improving and his impact changes with the times while he is improving and not yet stabilized.
    I did change my racket recently, but I wouldn't really blame that.
    It probably is judgement, although sometimes, when I'm sure I know, I hit the edge.
    Do you think I should just imagine the ball is spinnier?
    Always go forward

  4. Der_Echte is offline
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    #24
    This is a difficult thing to say.

    If I was convinced that I am constantly late on my impact timing, I would need a way to adjust. Visualizing there is more spin to start the swing a tad earlier is one way to adjust.

    This would be opponent specific. I would have to be sure of why I was late or that I was consistently late to try an adjustment like that.

    Recently changing the racket would account for a few sessions, since you have had this a while, it likely isn't your bat.

    Maybe you have an opponent who is difficult to judge their impact. This can give one problems for sure. If you notice a certain pattern of how you miss vs an opponent's certain shot, sure an adjustment is in order like the one you suggest.

    One way I adjust to LP players who bump or hit is to SLOW DOWN my timing. I tell myself to WAIT. Another adjust I do vs that kind of player is to MOVE FORWARD a tad right when they hit... this makes the ball come into my effective strike zone at the time I instinctively hit. Without such adjustments, my timing vs LP bumpers and hitters is crappy sometimes.

    These are examples of need for adjustments and executing them. Sometimes you have a player who impacts ball differently on topspin shots or just adds more spin that it looks like and you are too late on your impact. On those balls, you either have to find a way to impact a tad earlier of get back a tad more to get impact timing and strike zone right.

    One might never realize the reasons behind why they do not read the ball. That is assuming mis-reading is the cause. The balls we use are not perfect, not are the tables... we still have many errors from the balls and besides taking it right off the bounce, it is a difficult thing.
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    Do you usually stand a bit further away from the table?

    Maybe high-level players stand further away from the table than I thought.

    I will try the side-thing
    I usually play close and take the ball early. I cannot move well but I also can't bend too low so I am trying to find the right distance to compromise. But to take the ball early consistently, I need to touch the side of the ball to control spin at the table, I don't read spin well enough to use racket angles.
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    I did change my racket recently, but I wouldn't really blame that.
    It probably is judgement, although sometimes, when I'm sure I know, I hit the edge.
    Do you think I should just imagine the ball is spinnier?
    Changing your racket can easily do it. The weight affects timing.
    Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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  7. songdavid98 is offline
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    #27
    I guess one thing I should mention is that I play against a lot of junk players and I'm used to the slow balls that come from them.

    Should I just fast-forward myself when I play with people that are normal?
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  8. Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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    #28
    to avoid hitting the edge of the racket, open up your wrist a little

    that doesn't mean the angle of the racket is necessary more closed. You can still adjust your arm to close the angle more. but keeping the wrist open will give you more power and you will make less mistakes hitting the edge of the racket

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  9. Tinykin is offline
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    #29

    Fine tuning strokes after a bat change

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    ..........
    Recently changing the racket would account for a few sessions, since you have had this a while, it likely isn't your bat.....................................
    Not too sure about that. Some players never get used to or need much more time after a bat change. Whether it's because of grip change, weight, size or whatever, the general fine tuned handing is may take longer than expected to achieve. This lack of adjustment results in timing errors; missed balls through playing over the ball or top edging the ball.
    The other thing is that the OP may have modified his stroke play without realising it to compensate for whatever characteristic the bat encourages
    I wonder if the OP has also experienced an increase in the number of missed serves? If so, then it's definitely the bat.

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    Last edited by Tinykin; 02-16-2019 at 07:03 AM.
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    #30
    There are many reasons to hit the ball with the edge. For me the two most often are 1.the incoming ball has less top spin than expected and 2.slower reaction to the ball due to bad footwork, out of position, slower recovery, too close to the table. Sometimes a third reason - wrong stroke timing with higher balls, in this case you are not late, but faster.
    My suggestion - try to keep your eyes on the ball all the time and when hitting, excercise to rally the ball changing rythm and temp.

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  11. Lula is offline
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    #31
    I think you loose to much time and understanding where rhe ball is coming if you look at the ball. Do not believe in looking at the ball all the time. But as long it is working for you!

  12. Der_Echte is offline
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    #32
    Problem: over the years, I've hit lots of ball on the edge of my racket. This usually happens when the ball jumps out at me with topspin and I try to forehand loop it (but I've had it happen before even when it's not spinny. sometimes happens long backspin pushes to my backhand).
    David said he has had this problem over the years, so it isn't just his bat. (Unless he was changing bats every few months) Yes, I do believe different bats are very difficult to get the fine timing down right. TTD member erm is prolly the world's largest EJ and tries out 6-10 different combinations every session. When he is using a bat other than his main one... edge city. After 6-10 bats tryout and he plays more serious doubles game with his normal bat... edge city again at first. Different bat making it hard and experiencing more edges is real. Since David has had this year in and out, likely something different than a different bat.

    Heavy topspin balls can be hard to judge, ditto for a ball with less spin where it looks like it is a heavy ball. Even for a player of David's advanced level.

    I already detailed what I think are possible reasons for a player to miss, no matter the level.

    I am sticking to the order of ball out of round, play venue not perfect contrast, and general mis-judgment.

    How to adjust?

    Tough to do when you strike a certain ball correct most of the time and only occasionally strike ball with bat edge... usually it is late impact timing and you do wat it takes to make timing a tad earlier... if that doesn't mess up the timing of the shot since he was making it most of the time right.

    If the ball is not out of round, the answer will be just reading impact and the ball better with time.
    Maybe another thing is sometimes under pressure we hit in a different part of the impact zone and timing is different for that part of the zone. (example - hit too far in front of the effective impact zone - that can make a late impact too)

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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    I think you loose to much time and understanding where rhe ball is coming if you look at the ball. Do not believe in looking at the ball all the time. But as long it is working for you!
    "Look at the ball" is a technique widely used by experienced coaches and players of all levels, even top players. Its a must for beginners. With the time a player may develope a perfect feel for timing and ball and would stop looking at the ball all the time, but still it may be usefull in many occasions as playing with an unfamiliar player with not comfortable temp and spin and so on. Look at the ball is very underestimated especially by selfbuilded players and some coaches, sometimes due to different approach, sometimes due to lower qualification and experience.
    Look at the ball is very helpfull with problems like the OP.
    But you guys are absolutely free to approach as you like.

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    "Look at the ball" is a technique widely used by experienced coaches and players of all levels, even top players. Its a must for beginners. With the time a player may develope a perfect feel for timing and ball and would stop looking at the ball all the time, but still it may be usefull in many occasions as playing with an unfamiliar player with not comfortable temp and spin and so on. Look at the ball is very underestimated especially by selfbuilded players and some coaches, sometimes due to different approach, sometimes due to lower qualification and experience.
    Look at the ball is very helpfull with problems like the OP.
    But you guys are absolutely free to approach as you like.
    I never meant that it is bad to look at the ball. We always need to look at the ball to be able to hit it. I agree that it is important for beginners to look at the ball. But i think experienced players often look to little at the opponent and follow th ball to much. You save alot of time and can anticipate where the ball is coming if you look more at the opponent. Especially when blocking it is important to look at the opponent, very difficult, almost impossible in my opinion to block well against a good player if you follow the ball all the time. Atleast i think so.

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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    This has to be one of the best videos ever translated. Thanks for performing a national treasure.
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    #36
    Ok, Lula, I do not argue with the fact, that experienced players with good feel and well developed motor reflex etc., may prove effective in matches without looking at the ball all the time. Though there are pros, who still use this all the time, never mind how fast is the game, and they are really fast. I said that Look at the ball is a technique, but its more accurate to say that its a Fundamental Basis, and some of the systematically trained players never leave it. We have coaches who are Master of Sports of the National Sports Academy and national champions, who always use it. And we have some that don't. Its a matter of personal approach and feel.
    But we have the OP question about a particular problem here.
    And I keep my suggestion that Look at the ball will be very helpfull to solve that problem.
    Again - everyone is free to approach as he feels better.

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  17. Tinykin is offline
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    This has to be one of the best videos ever translated. Thanks for performing a national treasure.
    The videos definitely add knowledge.
    What did you find most useful or eye-opening?

    For me, it was the advice to tense the abs when striking the ball.
    I tried this morning on my robot and there was a definite power increase from what I thought to be my regular stroke. Plus, one gets that breathing out on stroke to be more regular.
    However, I'm not sure that I can work it into my subconscious play.
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    #38
    It happens to me if i am out of practice, my timing would suck.

  19. GusShnaps is offline
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    #39
    That doesn't affect my forehand at all, but it does happen pretty often with my backhand.
    In the beginning I thought that it was 100% luck, but it's definitely not as it happens too often. It probably has to do with our technique or timing.
    I guess I'll need some tips from this thread too!

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    #40
    Your contribution is invaluable. That's why we don't pay you.

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