Japan Top 12 and WTTC 2019 Trial, 3/2-3

says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,321
9,387
18,476
Btw Zeio, on your analysis, maybe it is the translation but results after 2018 are results after 2018. And I think on the final analysis of potential, Hayata playing the way she did in a variety of situations including Portugal, T-league and the internal trials should have opened the coach's eyes.

I have no doubt that the coaches tried to be as fair as possible. And this is why I tell people that when selecting the best player, using one match rather than using all the evidence available will lead to worse decisions. After all, you can mandate that everyone play the trials but still make choices not based on trial rankings purely but using trials as one input amongst many.

In any case, I hope Hayata will at least enable the Japanese to rethink what is possible if the goal is to field the best team.
To be precise, it's "from Jan 2018 onward". However, I didn't go with that because of Kurashima's explanation. By "2018年1月以降", they clearly meant "1年間", literally "1 year during". I don't know why they chose to write that way but they could be just as quirky as the CNT when it comes to wording.

http://world-tt.com/ps_info/ps_report_detail.php?bn=1&pg=HEAD&page=BACK&rpcdno=2896
倉嶋洋介 男子監督
2018年1月以降の主要国際大会での実績と内容、国際競争力向上への高い潜在性、その2点を評価して吉村和弘を選出した。吉村は香港オープンで優勝したが、日本選手でワールドツアーで優勝したのは張本と吉村のみ。その実績を評価した。またワールドランキング30位以内に勝利した数が、張本が14勝、水谷が8勝、その次に吉村が4勝、その後に丹羽が3勝、大島祐哉(木下グループ)と吉村真晴(名古屋ダイハツ)が2勝。特筆すべきは、4勝のうち、トップ10の選手に2勝を上げている。これらが国際競争力への高いポテンシャルがあるというところに繋がっている。吉村和弘以外にも大島、吉村真晴も検討した。彼らにも出場してもらいたい気持ちはあったが、選考基準どおり、1年の国際大会での実績、内容を総合的に評価した結果、吉村和弘とした」

I agree with what you and many are saying here. In case it's not obvious, I made the "all hail democracy" post to highlight its potential flaws and present the JNT's case as a prominent counter-example to those who preach a transparent, fair, and democratic selection process and won't settle with anything less, yet desire the selection system of other associations that is often labeled opaque, unjust, and undemocratic when the results don't go their way.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Vlad Celler
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,321
9,387
18,476
Ahh ... first of all, I think we are using words democracy and meritocracy a little bit incorrectly. I mean if anything a more "democratic" selection (well it wasn't really democratic senso stricto, so the word should not be used at all) was the one done by the CNT and meritocratic one, was more on the JNT side. In case of the CNT, it was up to the coaches to decide who gets selected, so I imagine they had to vote. Japan version was actually meritocratic, because it was purely your merit, your tournament results that decided if you were going to qualify or not.
That post highlights the very reason why the Western media labels China an autocracy, authoritarian and so on when in fact it has been the first and oldest meritocracy in the world for over 2200 years, dating way back before the term meritocracy was coined in 1958. The Chinese term is "任人唯賢", meaning "to appoint people based on merit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Ancient_times:_China
According to scholarly consensus, the earliest example of an administrative meritocracy, based on civil service examinations, dates back to Ancient China.[22][23][24][25][a] The concept originates, at least by the sixth century BC, when it was advocated by the Chinese philosopher Confucius, who "invented the notion that those who govern should do so because of merit, not of inherited status. This sets in motion the creation of the imperial examinations and bureaucracies open only to those who passed tests."[26]
...
According to the Princeton Encyclopedia on American History:[28]

One of the oldest examples of a merit-based civil service system existed in the imperial bureaucracy of China. Tracing back to 200 B.C., the Han Dynasty adopted Confucianism as the basis of its political philosophy and structure, which included the revolutionary idea of replacing nobility of blood with one of virtue and honesty, and thereby calling for administrative appointments to be based solely on merit. This system allowed anyone who passed an examination to become a government officer, a position that would bring wealth and honor to the whole family. In part due to Chinese influence, the first European civil service did not originate in Europe, but rather in India by the British-run East India Company... company managers hired and promoted employees based on competitive examinations in order to prevent corruption and favoritism.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-China-s-model-of-governance-meritocracy-superior-to-western-democracy
The Chinese system is by far the most fundamentally ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT governing systems out there. It’s designed as a peaceful periodic transfer of power - to people who are smarter, and more capable, than the current cohort. So there’s no way any ruling class in any country serious wants to adopt the Chinese system. If someone is serious about trying the “China model”, first they need to educate the citizens so that everybody is qualified to take the National Civil Service exam. Then they must recruit only from the very top 5% into government service. Then they must have everyone starts from the bottom, and only promote those who can hit KPIs based on hard numbers, like GDP growth + # of college graduates + lower crime statistics + renewable energy growth +… Is there anybody doing this? No? Well then, what “Chinese Model” are you talking about? And the hard-earned power you have, you can’t keep it in the family, you can’t pass it on to your children, you lose it as soon as you fail to perform at the highest level. Which political elite would advocate for such a system for himself?

When people say they want to try the “China model”, they are not talking about the real China. They are talking about this Authoritarian China Avatar that’s created by the Media, like you can be an unaccountable dictator or something. In reality, Xi can’t make any Politburo decision unless he can persuade at least 5 out of the other 6 Politburo members, who are all elected on their own merit and can not be fired by Xi. Because Politburo decisions require 7:0 or 6:1 consensus. Can you imagine if Mr. Trump has to persuade Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders to agree with him in order to get any decision out? Yeah, it’s like that. It would have been extremely painful for Mr. Trump. The other side of the coin is, if, say, Mr. Trump, Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Sanders, all agree to push for a Campaign Reform plan, and work hard for it, that would be really powerful and will sail through the Congress too. You may even call that “authoritarian”, but that “authority” comes naturally from this level of political consensus.

An example of that meritocracy in the CNT. You work your way up from sports school, to provincial team, to national team by way of examination in the name of "交流比賽(exchange competition)".

 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
[...] I agree with what you and many are saying here. In case it's not obvious, I made the "all hail democracy" post to highlight its potential flaws and present the JNT's case as a prominent counter-example to those who preach a transparent, fair, and democratic selection process and won't settle with anything less, yet desire the selection system of other associations that is often labeled opaque, unjust, and undemocratic when the results don't go their way.

That post highlights the very reason why the Western media labels China an autocracy, authoritarian and so on when in fact it has been the first and oldest meritocracy in the world for over 2200 years, dating way back before the term meritocracy was coined in 1958. The Chinese term is "任人唯賢", meaning "to appoint people based on merit."

Ahh ... second of all : ) I wouldn't try to position those two terms against each other. I never studied political science and I'm not even sure it they both should be considered as alternatives.
Both democracy and meritocracy as an effective decision making processes, have their strengths and weaknesses. And they both can be abused.

There is and interesting passage in the wiki about the criticism of meritocracy:

The term "meritocracy" was originally intended as a negative concept.[50] One of the primary concerns with meritocracy is the unclear definition of "merit".[51] What is considered as meritorious can differ with opinions as on which qualities are considered the most worthy, raising the question of which "merit" is the highest—or, in other words, which standard is the "best" standard. As the supposed effectiveness of a meritocracy is based on the supposed competence of its officials, this standard of merit cannot be arbitrary and has to also reflect the competencies required for their roles.


The reliability of the authority and system that assesses each individual's merit is another point of concern. As a meritocratic system relies on a standard of merit to measure and compare people against, the system by which this is done has to be reliable to ensure that their assessed merit accurately reflects their potential capabilities. Standardized testing, which reflects the meritocratic sorting process, has come under criticism for being rigid and unable to accurately assess many valuable qualities and potentials of students. Education theorist Bill Ayers, commenting on the limitations of standardized testing, writes that "Standardized tests can't measure initiative, creativity, imagination, conceptual thinking, curiosity, effort, irony, judgment, commitment, nuance, good will, ethical reflection, or a host of other valuable dispositions and attributes. What they can measure and count are isolated skills, specific facts and function, content knowledge, the least interesting and least significant aspects of learning."[52] Merit determined through the opinionated evaluations of teachers, while being able to assess the valuable qualities that cannot be assessed by standardized testing, are unreliable as the opinions, insights, biases, and standards of the teachers vary greatly. If the system of evaluation is corrupt, non-transparent, opinionated or misguided, decisions regarding who has the highest merit can be highly fallible.

Source: Wikipedia.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

This would show, that there is no such thing as meritocracy being better than say democracy. In fact JNT and CNT selection process were attempts to make decisions based on "merit". JNT had their "standardized tests"(/World Tour results) system and the design of this one specific system is what's being criticized (knock-out tournament instead of round robin). Imho JNT also failed to recognize limitations of a "standardized tests" approach and the wild card procedures where a little inaccurate (I'm not criticizing Sato's selection but the timing of issuing the wc).

CNT leaves all up to the coaches and I imagine Liu Shiwen would have had something to say about it in 2016 before Rio.

[Edit] Back in 2016 I was hoping for Ding Ning, Liu Shiwen lineup. Li Xiaoxia had some injuries in 2015 as far as I recall, and wasn't as competitive as Wang Hao in 2012 (if you check world rankings back then). Liu was a firm #1 since the second part of 2015 and the WTTC final that year was just strange. Sure Li was defending gold.

The point is, well Liu case is debatable - agree, but there are some nuanced situations where one just have to trust the "competence of the officials" .. so here would be the place for democratic selection/correction process to come into play ..
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
That post highlights the very reason why the Western media labels China an autocracy, authoritarian and so on when in fact it has been the first and oldest meritocracy in the world for over 2200 years, dating way back before the term meritocracy was coined in 1958. The Chinese term is "任人唯賢", meaning "to appoint people based on merit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Ancient_times:_China


https://www.quora.com/Why-is-China-s-model-of-governance-meritocracy-superior-to-western-democracy


An example of that meritocracy in the CNT. You work your way up from sports school, to provincial team, to national team by way of examination in the name of "交流比賽(exchange competition)".


It would be more like Trump convincing Paul Ryan and Ted Cruz.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2015
386
562
1,079
Hayata should've won the right tournament at the right time but failed to do so. She know is and that's why she's not grumpy about not being selected. It's important to have clear and fair process to keep everyone motivated. There's life after Olympics and Japan still needs to be going forward. Sure the decision to take Sato in might have been too early but I've seen the late selection caused exhaustion to the candidates before so I have no complaints. No system is perfect and this one's pretty good.

I'm in no place to criticize China's selection process but they can pretty much do anything and still win almost all the major tournaments. I see lots of 2nd tier associations demoralizing players by showing favoritism towards specific player.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
[...] There's life after Olympics and Japan still needs to be going forward. Sure the decision to take Sato in might have been too early but I've seen the late selection caused exhaustion to the candidates before so I have no complaints. No system is perfect and this one's pretty good.

I'm in no place to criticize China's selection process but they can pretty much do anything and still win almost all the major tournaments. I see lots of 2nd tier associations demoralizing players by showing favoritism towards specific player.

"There's life after Olympics" - in my opinion, yes and ... no. Depends what Japan wants to achieve. Don't get me wrong I'm just a guy who's excited about table tennis, plays it, likes to watch it, helps in a club (in Poland actually ; ) but it's your team. I get that.

CNT was unchallenged for the past decades, say since 2003. There was not a single national team able to challenge them (well Moscow 2010 ; ) Trust me, I have great admiration for their stars, Jike at WTTC 2011 had the greatest court/"stage" presence I've seen in the sport imho.

JNT because of Tokyo I imagine has one of the biggest budgets for development, not to mention a great motivation of the coaches and players. This is a big opportunity. Winning a gold at the Olympics would give a new life to tt in Japan ...

I have nothing against Kato or Sato, if they gonna win with Liu Shiwen-s, be it, but JNT has to be very wise. Whoever wins the gold Shiwen, Ning, Mima, Hirano - fine with me, but I would like to see the winner to be seriously challenged this time ... and you have very good chances to do so ... I keep my fingers crossed for you.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2016
4,037
4,600
19,161
another ??? for the JNT coaches, with YOSHIMURA Kazuhiro being knocked out 4-3 of the Qatar Open by Anders LIND from Denmark. Never heard about him before. Yoshimura Jr lost in the TLeague final 1-3 against the 38 yo HOU , the veteran chopper from China.
Thats not really the kind of performance you can expect from a JNT player supposed to be challenging the top world players...
 
  • Like
Reactions: jawien
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,526
18,073
45,215
Read 17 reviews
another ??? for the JNT coaches, with YOSHIMURA Kazuhiro being knocked out 4-3 of the Qatar Open by Anders LIND from Denmark. Never heard about him before. Yoshimura Jr lost in the TLeague final 1-3 against the 38 yo HOU , the veteran chopper from China.
Thats not really the kind of performance you can expect from a JNT player supposed to be challenging the top world players...

Anders Lind has been playing strong in European leagues recently. I don't think this is a big deal.
 
This user has no status.
Anders Lind has been playing strong in European leagues recently. I don't think this is a big deal.
It's not only Lind that he has been losing to though. Andrea Landrieu, Cedric Nuytinck, Vitor Ishiy, Alberto Mino are all players that he lost to in 2018 and 2019 so far that he shouldn't have because he is supposed to be much better than them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Takkyu_wa_inochi
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,526
18,073
45,215
Read 17 reviews
It's not only Lind that he has been losing to though. Andrea Landrieu, Cedric Nuytinck, Vitor Ishiy, Alberto Mino are all players that he lost to in 2018 and 2019 so far that he shouldn't have because he is supposed to be much better than them.

Youth has volatility. Maybe Uda or Kitzikuri? Are they that much better? That is my point.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2016
4,037
4,600
19,161
Youth has volatility. Maybe Uda or Kitzikuri? Are they that much better? That is my point.

there were plenty of other players to choose from, instead of Yoshimura Jr, for example his brother, Oshima etc...
anyway I'm all Mizutani and Harimoto to go as far as they can, and Niwa for the Stiga Top10
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,526
18,073
45,215
Read 17 reviews
there were plenty of other players to choose from, instead of Yoshimura Jr, for example his brother, Oshima etc...
anyway I'm all Mizutani and Harimoto to go as far as they can, and Niwa for the Stiga Top10

Oshima and Yoshimura senior have kinda peaked. The main thing is to give it to someone who can actually get seriously better.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
So Hayata's yesterday lost probably humbles us a little, the JNT critics and Hina protagonists. Well she won two tournaments before and her lost to Eunchong was very marginal 9:11 in 7th ... Korean player gave her some problems with the serves as @Zeio noticed, just like Kato did in Top12. So there is a room for improvement. I still keep my fingers crossed for her.

If she'll be able to beat big names in 2019, the JNT for sure will be under a big pressure to consider her in spite of the rankings, but ... she needs to be more stable for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vlad Celler

mrk

This user has no status.

mrk

This user has no status.
Member
Jul 2017
256
238
625
Two tournaments in a row is a difficult task by the way when someone played a final in the tournament before.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jawien
Top