Chinese rubbers in the modern TT era

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I caught the highlights of the FZD/XX marvelous 12 match. It was very intresting to see XX engage in close to table BH-BH rallies with FZD, and fight his instincts to step back and take full swings. At one point, he even flipped his paddle and started using is BH red rubber on his FH. I don't know if this discussion has come up here, but I for one am curious to see if chinese rubbers that require full arm swings to engage, will survive the close to table compact strokes style of play.
 
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Fair question and interesting one. I'm not a CNT member or playing like XX ; ) but in my amateur career, I basically stopped wanting "the National one" or something similar, probably because of the reasons you've just described. Well ... ok to tell the truth, Harimoto's success was the first impulse that convinced me to 'stay' with euro/jap rubbers ...

But ... H3 National blue sponge is still being used successfully and I think even some JNT girls are playing it?
 
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I think some pros will move more toward eurojap rubbers, but I think some will still value the short game and spin potential of Chinese rubbers. It would make sense for those keeping Chinese rubbers to crank up their work in the gym and develop more strength and explosiveness to be able to unlock the rubbers' potential with smaller swings at the table. I'm no pro but I definitely find that staying at the table with tacky rubbers allows me to best use my strength from powerlifting to gain an advantage.
 
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At one point, he even flipped his paddle and started using is BH red rubber on his FH.

Can guarantee you it was a point where Xu Xin was smashing vs lobs. That's the only time any CNT member twiddles from their Hurricane FH to Tenergy.

I thought Xu Xin's approach vs FZD & Lin Gaoyuan was apparent and a good one. Clearly he was encouraged to stay at the table and don't passively block with his RPB or try to turn the corner too much and hit his FH but to go play his RPB with power & punch and don't be afraid to use it.

Won easy vs Lin and vs FZD honestly taking a game from Fan is a good thing given at this point in their careers how much further along Fan is than Xu. In that game that Xu won, there were at least 4-5 surprisingly, punchy & very aggressive RPBs by Xu.

As for Chineese rubbers in today's game? I don't think we're going to see any of the CNT members go away from what they use now on their FHs for a long, long time. Sticky is great close to the table. High spin. Hard sponge offers almost no bottoming out & no top end to what they can do. And those rubbers are probably tuned like crazy so trust me they're plenty fast. Now it's just down to may the quickest & physically strongest win.
 
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I caught the highlights of the FZD/XX marvelous 12 match. It was very intresting to see XX engage in close to table BH-BH rallies with FZD, and fight his instincts to step back and take full swings. At one point, he even flipped his paddle and started using is BH red rubber on his FH. I don't know if this discussion has come up here, but I for one am curious to see if chinese rubbers that require full arm swings to engage, will survive the close to table compact strokes style of play.

You make a fine observation and a valuable speculation to consider. As a complement to your thoughts, I have noticed very powerful, top-of-the-line shots from a number of noteworthy players such as Calderano using non-Chinese rubbers that appear comparable in quality to the Chinese Chinese-rubber forehands.

I surmise, from the available information, that two major influences are at play here: 1) The Tibhar MX-P generation of rubber advanced the non-Chinese rubber technology in a significant way and 2) The marginal power differential between the Chinese rubbers and the non-Chinese rubbers is appreciably reduced by continuing refinement and development of boosting materials and techniques.

Your sighting is an example of the distinctions the players are making in the performance characteristics of the rubbers addressing the seamed ABS ball. Timo Boll's flipping when he smashes against lobs is further evidence of this exceptional-player awareness and adaptability in the current table tennis equipment context.

Thank you for this thread.
 
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As for Chineese rubbers in today's game? I don't think we're going to see any of the CNT members go away from what they use now on their FHs for a long, long time. Sticky is great close to the table. High spin. Hard sponge offers almost no bottoming out & no top end to what they can do. And those rubbers are probably tuned like crazy so trust me they're plenty fast. Now it's just down to may the quickest & physically strongest win.

Still I would say it was the Chinese manufacturers who probably had to adjust more.

Besides ... tackiness is all about the spin, but if Harimoto can smash off the table those spinny loops Zhang Jike played during the Japan Open, in such a dismissive fashion ... this begs the question, why would you 'invest' so much energy into spin anymore ... ?
 
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Can guarantee you it was a point where Xu Xin was smashing vs lobs. That's the only time any CNT member twiddles from their Hurricane FH to Tenergy.

The interesting thing is he wasnt switching to red BH for smash or lobs, which is a given he or any other chinese player would do. What caught my eye is that he began the rally using te red side for service and didn't twiddle mid rally.
 
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I'm sure DHS is working on the next gen tacky rubbers. Just as tensor rubbers are improving year after year, the performance of tacky rubbers are likely to increase as well.
Tacky rubber and tensor rubbers have different focuses after all. CNT values spin and control in short game much more than Jap/Euro players, hence the tacky rubber.
Xu Xin is a good example of employing spin in services and short game to suppress opponent and create opportunities for attacks. His match with FZD is an exception, because FZD is too familiar with XX's services. So XX's usual tactic of suppression with spin doesn't work on FZD. FZD essentially forces XX into a topspin duel close to the table.
As far as pro player outside of CNT using H3 rubbers, I think Hayata and Jang Woojin both use H3 on forehand.
 
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I think XX's case is rare - maybe he is trying something different against his teammates - whom are all good and experienced playing against H3

I don't think it will be necessary against non Chinese.

However the comment of Harimoto just killing the "lack of spin" is true - the bigger ball has reduce so much speed and spin, that this has been a constant headache.
even when I watch matches - I can't believe how slow the game is compared to 5 years ago....
 
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I think XX's case is rare - maybe he is trying something different against his teammates - whom are all good and experienced playing against H3

I don't think it will be necessary against non Chinese.

However the comment of Harimoto just killing the "lack of spin" is true - the bigger ball has reduce so much speed and spin, that this has been a constant headache.
even when I watch matches - I can't believe how slow the game is compared to 5 years ago....

I think you are correct that they are playing with less spin and power, but i feel the game is faster since in my opinion players play closer to the table and use more counterlooping, counterattacking compared to before. Feel that the men play a little more like the women now. I also feel that they are less finesse now and much more just pang pang all the time.
 
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I think you are correct that they are playing with less spin and power, but i feel the game is faster since in my opinion players play closer to the table and use more counterlooping, counterattacking compared to before. Feel that the men play a little more like the women now. I also feel that they are less finesse now and much more just pang pang all the time.

The styles and technique has changed a lot for sure.
but the game is slower for sure too

maybe because you are seeing them more closer towards the table - it doesn't mean the ball is now faster.

If you look at the womens play - you can see how slower it is, and how two top Chinese womens are using all they might in returning the ball, but a gentle counter and the ball is back.
You won't see that in the days of former grand slam champs.... now any weaker player can return the ball back easily.
 
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The styles and technique has changed a lot for sure.
but the game is slower for sure too

maybe because you are seeing them more closer towards the table - it doesn't mean the ball is now faster.

If you look at the womens play - you can see how slower it is, and how two top Chinese womens are using all they might in returning the ball, but a gentle counter and the ball is back.
You won't see that in the days of former grand slam champs.... now any weaker player can return the ball back easily.

I feel that it is a different in that the game goes faster because they are closer to the table and that how powerful everyones shot is. Or atleast i think so. Maybe i have a hard time explaining what i mean in english.

I understand that the game is not as powerful and not as spinny because of no more speedglue and bigger ball. Which one do you think is the biggest reason? the ball?
 
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XuXin still has injury in the knees. In the game vs FZD, FZD kept pressuring XuXin's BH side. Because of the injury, Xuxin didn't turn a lot, instead he was using a lot of BH. But the BH didn't threat FZD. Maybe he tried to change side to change the tempo...

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I feel that it is a different in that the game goes faster because they are closer to the table and that how powerful everyones shot is. Or atleast i think so. Maybe i have a hard time explaining what i mean in english.

I understand that the game is not as powerful and not as spinny because of no more speedglue and bigger ball. Which one do you think is the biggest reason? the ball?

well, speed glue was a long time ago
I was more comparing 40 cellu and 40+ poly balls
Even though the size/material change on paper is marginal, but the effects are great.

I kindof miss the 38mm era
40mm allow for less spin and less speed than 38mm era
40+ allows for less spin, less speed than 40mm era - and on top of that, poorer players too lol
 
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Some pics

XuXin still has injury in the knees. In the game vs FZD, FZD kept pressuring XuXin's BH side. Because of the injury, Xuxin didn't turn a lot, instead he was using a lot of BH. But the BH didn't threat FZD. Maybe he tried to change side to change the tempo...

One day, we need to do a chart to see "who isn't injured"
its crazy how so many players 25~30 are carrying injury inside the world top 50
 
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What i understand they are more injuried to the slower ball. With the new ball i have changed to faster equipment to try to counter that. Can not the pros Do the same? So they get more help But Maybe then they lose to much in serve and return. Or Maybe they have sligthly faster things now compared ro before.
 
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What i understand they are more injuried to the slower ball. With the new ball i have changed to faster equipment to try to counter that. Can not the pros Do the same? So they get more help But Maybe then they lose to much in serve and return. Or Maybe they have sligthly faster things now compared ro before.

well, there is no doubt there is faster equipment out there now, but what is speed measurement on the bat if the ball is rotating less (spin reduction) and the time the ball takes to travel in the air is so much more

During the 1st year of the 2-3 year transition, I recall hearing from the CNT that the B team had 2 years of testing on the new ball by DHS protypes - I had 2 protypes balls too.
This was before 40+ was released to any other countries - since the only factory making it was both in China at that stage.

The B team coaches conclusion was that the players needed more physical training as the physical demand on the body has increase a lot more than 40mm
How I read that is:
1) the ball is slower, thus rallies on longer = physical demand is higher
2) the ball has less spin, thus player needs to change technique and use more physical strength = physical demand is higher

Due to this, The A team started to use an American psychical trainer, I can't remember if it was from the NBA or what other sporting code, but for a whole good 3 years (this includes going into the 1st year of 40+ for the public - with no stock) the focus was on physical training. As well as physiotherapy for body recovery.

I'm not sure about you, but I have seen your top 10 players having less threat against world 50/ world 100 player
Before gap was very high, now the gap is more narrow.
I have also seen older players are getting injured more (25yrs +)

I have also seen from my coaching/training sessions, that my students are getting less quality balls over - but was working as hard.

I feel there is no doubt the quality of rallies has dropped while the physical demand of the body has increased a lot.
This is not something that equipment can fix - maybe the game will become more and more slower in the next decades....

The pros has been changing and adapting equipment, as well as tecnique and physical training.
but that doesn't help reduce the rally length.

imagine if every point is now 20+ rallies.
that is very taxing for the player and the body can only hold it in for so long.....
 
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