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    1. Top | #21
      russell is offline
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      I input the results for a league into TT365 and it's a very good system. I also used to work in IT and there is no way on earth a similar system could be produced in time for next season. However, there isn't the slightest chance that our league would pay £7 per person extra to TT365. This is the first year we have used TT365 and the old spreadsheet system is still running alongside TT365 and many people were, and still are, reluctant to use TT365. It seems as though there will be a motion to re-direct funds from TTE to TT365 which I would definitely back but, whether our league committee will do so, I really don't know.

    2. Top | #22
      FruitLoop is offline
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      £7 per person is a lot but for a lot of people (probably the majority of people) their affiliation to TTE is for that and that alone. They gain absolutely nothing else from that money. So from that perspective it's not actually a big deal money wise. If you could pay the £7 each and deaffiliate I think a lot of leagues would be willing. Why not? They don't get anything else for their money so it would actually be a net saving.

    3. Top | #23
      russell is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by FruitLoop View Post
      £7 per person is a lot but for a lot of people (probably the majority of people) their affiliation to TTE is for that and that alone. They gain absolutely nothing else from that money. So from that perspective it's not actually a big deal money wise. If you could pay the £7 each and deaffiliate I think a lot of leagues would be willing. Why not? They don't get anything else for their money so it would actually be a net saving.
      Our league has a few people who play in ETTA tournaments and in the Seniors British League which I'm not sure they could do if we de-affiliated plus there is the question of insurance which we get via the ETTA I believe.

    4. Top | #24
      FruitLoop is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by russell View Post
      Our league has a few people who play in ETTA tournaments and in the Seniors British League which I'm not sure they could do if we de-affiliated plus there is the question of insurance which we get via the ETTA I believe.
      I don't know about the insurance but I think people can affiliate individually. It's a bit of a mess though the whole situation.

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      russell (2 Days Ago)

    6. Top | #25
      Medax is offline
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      As a TT player and systems architect & developer, I was following this thread and the background story as it's 2 fields that I have interest in.

      One point that got me thinking was "what do I get from my TTE membership" and for me I previously treated it that it was to enable me to play local league.

      I know in reality there was more to it, but I just paid it as a pre-requisite to our league and never gave it a second thought. I suppose I did this as I have paid much more for 8 ball pool to the EPA and even more still for my martial arts fees, so to me the paltry amount I pay TTE wasn't something I even considered.

      Anyway, slightly off topic for the reason for my post and that was what do I get?????

      After a little research (and not had to do a lot to be fair), I found a link on the TTE website that explains quite well what I get and I thought it might be worth sharing....

      https://tabletennisengland.co.uk/wp-...let-2019-1.pdf

      disclaimer: this post is not made by me to support either party in this situation or to sway anyone else, it was purely to share what I found
      Last edited by Medax; 2 Days Ago at 10:08 PM.

    7. Top | #26
      mart1nandersson is offline
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      My view of this (as an IT architect) is that it's a very wise thing to split the ranking management system and the tournament management system.

      The way it works in Sweden is that the ranking is managed in a system delivered by a company named Profixio (delivered as SaaS)... i.e. results are uploaded in a certain format and the ranking point is calculated by the system.

      League results are entered directly into Profixio by the clubs.

      Most clubs use a piece of software named TT-coordinator from a company called Ondata to setup tournaments. Each club licenses this software which also pulls the ranking of each player from Profixio as our tournaments are typically grouped in ranking based classes (i.e. 750-1000, 1000-1250 etc).

      The beauty of this architecture is that the software from Ondata can easily be replaced or other competitors could easily start competing with Ondata if they wanted to as long as they can integrate with Profixio (but I guess that this won't happen due to the very small market).

      Edit: We don't have the concept of local leagues like in England so the above wouldn't really work for you. All leagues are sanctioned by the Swedish TTA.
      Last edited by mart1nandersson; 1 Day Ago at 12:08 PM.

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    9. Top | #27
      NDH is online now
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      I think one of the "fears" from people in this area are that TT365 become so dominant and leagues become so reliant on it, that if costs went up, no one could say anything about it.

      My understanding is TT365 is a very (very) small company who started up for the sole purpose of providing this service to the local leagues (I believe the person behind it was a player themselves).

      There seems to be zero competition in this space - I imagine it's because there is no money in it......

      If Table Tennis England could provide a decent in house solution, it would probably be the "safer" option.

      But the politics in it all looks very messy......

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      jammmail (1 Day Ago)

    11. Top | #28
      TTHopeful is offline
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      Why didnt tt365 just double their prices. Increasing it by 600% is silly

    12. Top | #29
      vvk1 is online now
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      Because they did not increase by 600%. Here is how TT365's CEO explained things. So 7 pounds per member is basically needed to maintain running costs now that previous income stream from TTE had vanished.


      You pay your affiliation fees to Table Tennis England and they use some of that money to fund the TT365 software and thus League Manager can be provided for free as a membership benefit, but in reality, you are… and always have been paying for it, just indirectly.

      All the income we receive from TTE for the provision of Membership Manager, the Ranking System, Tournament Entry, Club System and loads more will cease on 31st July. This is worth tens of thousands of pounds per year and it now leaves a massive hole in our finances. In addition to this, with the exception of the last year or so, TTE have generally commissioned custom projects with us that have generated income again the tens of thousands of pounds per year range; this will now also stop. TTE also pay an amount to TT365 for every member that has a full paid membership and has played in a league that uses league manager, but at the time of writing it is still very unclear if this will continue either.

      The average total annual income from Table Tennis England over the last 3 years is over £100,000. Obviously, this goes up and down, based on the variable level of bespoke work under-taken. This income accounts for a very significant portion of our total income. It would be an impossibility to continue to pay our full-time members of staff and cover the other expenses of the business on the income we get from advertising and smaller income streams such as email manager pro.

      So why am I being so open about the company finances? Well despite what some might think, I set up TT365 to be a force for good in the sport I love, not to get rich. All I ever wanted was to run a company that was beneficial to Table Tennis and be paid a fair wage that justifies the efforts I put in on a daily basis. The simple fact is that with the loss of TTE income, the finances just don’t stack up any longer and the future of TT365 is now in serious question. I cannot run TT365 at a loss, just like you I have a mortgage and bills to pay, as do my other staff.

      One thing that is worth addressing now, is why we have 4 members of staff. Every day we handle dozens of requests for support, often one enquiry can sometimes take an hour or more to debug and respond. It is a system that is supported 7 days per week, and we pride ourselves on providing a fast and high-quality response; in 10 years I cannot recall one serious complaint about our support service. Unfortunately, there is a lack of recognition for how big an operation TT365 actually is; its not just me in my spare room working on this part-time after work, it’s 4 highly skilled professionals working full-time. It is not owned or supported by Table Tennis England in any way, other than that already described; it is its own legal standalone entity. Finally, in terms of scale our webservers cost thousands of pounds annually and handle in excess of 12,000 requests per hour and deliver close to 2.5 million page-views per month and this continues to grow month on month. TT365 is a big operation, with significant costs, that requires a 6-figure turnover, each year.

    13. Top | #30
      FruitLoop is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by mart1nandersson View Post
      My view of this (as an IT architect) is that it's a very wise thing to split the ranking management system and the tournament management system.

      The way it works in Sweden is that the ranking is managed in a system delivered by a company named Profixio (delivered as SaaS)... i.e. results are uploaded in a certain format and the ranking point is calculated by the system.

      League results are entered directly into Profixio by the clubs.

      Most clubs use a piece of software named TT-coordinator from a company called Ondata to setup tournaments. Each club licenses this software which also pulls the ranking of each player from Profixio as our tournaments are typically grouped in ranking based classes (i.e. 750-1000, 1000-1250 etc).

      The beauty of this architecture is that the software from Ondata can easily be replaced or other competitors could easily start competing with Ondata if they wanted to as long as they can integrate with Profixio (but I guess that this won't happen due to the very small market).

      Edit: We don't have the concept of local leagues like in England so the above wouldn't really work for you. All leagues are sanctioned by the Swedish TTA.
      Excellent info thanks. I wonder what the costs of licensing these systems are? I.e. I wonder if TTE's only way out if they think TT365 is costing too much is to cost from abroad for example the Swedish equivalents?

    14. Top | #31
      Silver smasher is offline
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      I totally agree that the 365 system is superb and adds a lot to my enjoyment of table tennis. I can look at league position and scores including individual players performances. The ranking system is great and provides an real incentive to perform in each and every game.

      It would be difficult, time consuming and expensive for someone to build a system to match TT365 and historic information and rankings would be lost. If you agree with this then please contact TT England and encourage them to talk to TT365.

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