Serve before receiver ready - receiver caught ball in hand

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

bricec said:
While I do agree with you, it doesn't entirely solve the issue because roughly half the time they will have the ball on their side already (although you could argue that in those cases you have more time to be ready)

But yes, very good practice overall. It only has upsides.

Good point.

If they are picking up the ball, and I know they are a fast server, I'll make sure I'm ready.

If they don't give me much time (because they've caught the ball, or the ball was put in the net on the previous point), I'll make a point of moving away from the table, maybe even turning my back on them (pretending to do something), and then turn around when I'm ready.

But..... All of this being said, if they are super quick, and there's a chance I won't be ready (and this happens more than once), I'll do what everyone should do.....

Ask them to slow down.

It's amazing what happens when you ask people nicely!

starsky27 · Apr 12, 2019

I’m so happy to see this thread as it’s my first season in local leagues in the UK and I’ve experienced all sort of shenanigans including the OP.
The one that really gets on my wick is when you are warming up and your opponent sees this as an opportunity to smash balls past you with complete random placement as if you are playing a point out . What is wrong with these idiots!

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

BigMick said:
Just some clarity on the rules. I like to be correct - just academically

So what rule did I break?

Look at post 4 of this thread.

Now, the definition of "strike the ball" is up for interpretation here.

Does it mean with the bat? Would catching the ball, mean "striking" the ball?

It's a grey area, but I could see why a stickler for the rules might want to call you out on it.

Although, to reiterate..... I don't personally know anyone who would do that in my entire 20 years of playing.

I suggest you email the ITTF or Table Tennis England to get it clarified by an authority

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

starsky27 said:
I’m so happy to see this thread as it’s my first season in local leagues in the UK and I’ve experienced all sort of shenanigans including the OP.
The one that really gets on my wick is when you are warming up and your opponent sees this as an opportunity to smash balls past you with complete random placement as if you are playing a point out . What is wrong with thsee idiots

First season in the league would imply that you are playing in a lower league?

Until you get to the mid/higher leagues in the UK (from my experience), the "knock up" is a lottery.

Some will happily do the forehand to forehand and backhand to backhand drills, although my experience says that these are the minority in the lower leagues.

The majority will do all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff, which doesn't help anyone to be honest!

They don't do it because they are trying to be awkward - It's just they don't know any different.

bricec · Apr 12, 2019

NDH said:
I'll do what everyone should do.....

Ask them to slow down.

It's amazing what happens when you ask people nicely!

I'm not sure that works that well in a competition context where people need every inch of edge they can get but I see your point

BigMick · Apr 12, 2019

NDH said:
Would catching the ball, mean "striking" the ball?

Errmm....no.

starsky27 · Apr 12, 2019

NDH, your experience is spot on and yes it’s lower league.
It’s been a right learning curve this season and I never thought there would so many weird and wonderful ways to hit a table tennis ball ..

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

BigMick said:
Errmm....no.

You've come on in here in a pretty argumentative mood, on a topic that you seem far from an expert in.

If you want people to simply say "you are right", well that's not how it works - There are always 2 sides to it.

Your examples of other scenarios include you throwing the ball from 3 metres away - Something most people at a high level would consider very rude.

If you don't want to be caught in this situation again, I'd suggest following some of the advice that people have kindly offered here.

Archyan · Apr 12, 2019

BigMick said:
Because, according to you:

In the "shoe laces" example, catching the ball does not prevent the point being let.
In my real example, catching the ball does prevent the point being let.

I see no fundamental difference between the two cases

In the shoe lace example, I said that the umpire will call let.
I'm not a native english speaker, so you might've miss understood me.
By the rules, the referee did nothing wrong. Do you have something else on your mind?

bricec · Apr 12, 2019

NDH said:
Now, the definition of "strike the ball" is up for interpretation here.

I was suspicious of such a central point being up for interpretation and as it turns out, it's not:

ITTF HANDBOOK 2019 said:
2.5.7 A player strikes the ball if he or she touches it in play with his or her racket, heldin the hand, or with his or her racket hand below the wrist.

By this definition, catching the ball with the hand not holding the racket is definitely not striking the ball. Actually, touching the ball with the racket while not holding said racket in the hand (not sure how that can be but I'm guessing the racket is sitting on the table or has been thrown in the air) does not qualify as striking the ball either.

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

Ooo, good researching skills.

This is one of those threads that happens once in a blue moon, and common sense should really prevail!

bricec · Apr 12, 2019

Interestingly, there's also this little gem that might relate to the story I was telling:

2.6.7 Exceptionally, the umpire may relax the requirements for a correct servicewhere he or she is satisfied that compliance is prevented by physical disability

In my case, the other player being invalid, could the umpire decide to relax the requirement that the receiver be fully ready in order to favour a player who might find it difficult to actually pick up the ball with his racket hand (because he virtually has no free hand)? Or does "correct service" only mean stuff like presenting the ball in a flat hand, throwing it near vertically and so on?

Replying to myself here:

I think it only means "correct service" as detailed in section 2.6.
The part of the rules that addresses the receiver being ready is 2.9.1.2. Basically if you serve while the receiver is not ready the service might be correct but it still shall be let (2.9.1 The service shall be let: )

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

I would suggest in that example it's more to do with a potential disability of the server, than simply "not having a free hand".

So if the disability meant the server couldn't throw the ball up straight, open their hand flat etc etc, the umpire would be able to overrule the usual rule, and let them carry on.

bricec · Apr 12, 2019

That as well yes. But I think in any case it's moot, see my edit (and I should really have answered my own comment instead of editing it)

NDH · Apr 12, 2019

Yeah, of course, someone could potentially argue that if you are at the table and manage to catch the ball (as the OP said they did), it looks like you ARE ready to receive serve.

Someone not ready to receive would either be obvious to the umpire/other player (not squatted down, back to the play, doing something else for example), or they'd not be able to catch the ball.

bricec · Apr 12, 2019

NDH said:
Someone not ready to receive would either be obvious to the umpire/other player (not squatted down, back to the play, doing something else for example), or they'd not be able to catch the ball.

Well, back to my (admittedly very specific) example, even when I started to only send the ball when at the table (which I agree is good practice anyway) it was still not necessarily easy to to be in a ready position by the time the guy would serve.

I don't know about everybody but I like to take at least a couple seconds to get in a proper receiving position and at least be able to witness the ball being thrown in the air. But I would still have been able to catch the ball with my free hand. Actually I was also able to strike the ball... just that I was slightly taken aback each time (which is also why I think the guy was doing it on purpose). The umpire didn't call it let even a single time because it was not necessarily obvious, just very rude + disability means you're always a bit more likely to be lenient.

yogi_bear · Apr 12, 2019

Correct term is umpire as officiator in the game not referee

FruitLoop · Apr 12, 2019

starsky27 said:
I’m so happy to see this thread as it’s my first season in local leagues in the UK and I’ve experienced all sort of shenanigans including the OP.
The one that really gets on my wick is when you are warming up and your opponent sees this as an opportunity to smash balls past you with complete random placement as if you are playing a point out . What is wrong with these idiots!

Just say I'm ready as soon as they do that. No need for a warm up at that point and you can't be forced to hit with them.

Archyan · Apr 12, 2019

yogi_bear said:
Correct term is umpire as officiator in the game not referee

That's correct, referee is the one making sure everyone is doing their work correctly; includning the umpires!

chikuy · Apr 12, 2019

according to the rule NDH has posted, i think they have to be fair and give you a chance and not to add your opponent that point. Or wait TTF modify or update the TT Rules

Serve before receiver ready - receiver caught ball in hand

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