World Table Tennis Championships 2019

NoFootwork · Apr 30, 2019

zeio said:
Back before the MS final at WTTC 2017, LGL said this to ML and FZD.

http://www.dhs-sports.com/news/c06f97f4-c29c-7631-2ad4-9e72285e14a5.shtml

"In the personnel channel separated from the audience's activity area, the Chinese team's head coach Liu Guoliang with his arms crossed, reminded Ma Long and Fan Zhendong of 2 points: First, if there is a controversy on the court, they must be treated with fairness, if both of you don’t see it clearly, you will follow the umpire. I believe that you can do it;"

It seems that LGY did not give the same talk to WMY/SYS. There are many instances where the umpire's call is wrong and the player that benefited from that bad call asks the umpire to change the call. When not changed, players have walked over to the scorers table and flipped the score to what it should be. Others give the point back by purposely losing the next point.

LGL/CNT needs to lock WMY/SYS in a room and make them watch the above examples over and over and over again until it gets burned into their heads. Then they need to not allow WMY/SYS to participate in several upcoming ITTF events, including especially the upcoming China Open which starts in late May.

Personally I was rooting for WMY in this WTTC as I like her style and due to her humble family circumstances before this ugly incident. Yes, it was ugly - both WMY and SYS had a clear view of the serve and whether or not it was a "let" there is no other way to parse it.

This was a wonderful WTTC full of unexpected results, the unveiling An Jaehyun, LSW winning her first WTTC Singles, Ma Long making a fantastic return after there were reports not that long ago that he might have to retire due to injuries, and on and on. And then this sh!t happens in the Women's Doubles finals as the last match of an event that had so many reasons for celebration.

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

drunix80 said:
Keeping aside SYS/WMY's behavior during the point, I would really like to know some facts about the event :

1. Who called let first - Umpire or WMY/SYS ?

So far facebook, youtube and TTD user's comments are all of different views.

2. Is the judge malaysian or chinese or malaysian of chinese descent ?

3. Did the judge talk in Mandarin to the Chinese pair ? Not because ITO claimed but because it was caught on MIC or many others heard the same.

It will be great if someone could point the facts about this and not opinion ??

1. Both umpires are never visible on the screen at the same time. This is the angle available when it first happened. The assistant umpire pointed at the net with her right index finger, right after SYS missed the shot. SYS turned her head towards the assistant umpire immediately after that.

Right before the assistant umpire raised her right finger.

Right after.

2. Umpire: Lim Ee Lian from Malaysia.

Assistant umpire: Ingrid Bogren from Sweden

Lim is a common Hokkien, Hakka, Teochew and Hainanese spelling of the Chinese surname 林. She's a graduate student working on her PhD at University of Malaya, a dentist who has published 2 papers on ResearchGate. Article of how she started her umpiring career on ITTF. She also umpired in the final b/w China and Japan at the WTTC 2016.

Bogren is an engineer working at Midroc.

3. Can't really hear any Mandarin or anything with Bobrow overlapping. Lim didn't appear to respond to either party(but it's possible she could understand when WMY/SYS spoke?) and trusted Bogren's call. Lim appeared to confirm with Bogren moments later, in the following screenshot. That's the only time I could hear her utterance.

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:
aby video / link on the LSW v ZYL controversy ?

Ingrid Bogren happened to be the umpire of that match...

tropical · Apr 30, 2019

So the finger pointing from Bogren was at the net or something else? Did she mean to say the ball was out and not touch the edge? Or did she say the point belonged to JNT team? Come on! You definitely didn't have any common sense.

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Common_sense_is_not_common

The concept of common sense is a long-standing term, based on human experience and people's individual perceptions. Common sense isn't actually common, in either sense: it is different from person to person, and may not be employed even when many editors could agree on what it is in a particular situation.

It is sometimes said, common sense is very rare.

Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique (1764)[1]

Thus, when discussing issues of importance to projects on Wikipedia, don't consider your position, or the position that you agree with, or even a position that has consensus, to be "common sense", because it's nothing more than your perception. Your idea of common sense is likely to contradict someone else's idea of common sense.

Instead of relying on "common sense" to make decisions, you should instead rely on building consensus for your position and perception, and work with other people to reach a conclusion most people can accept. By assuming your position is "common sense" and acting upon it, all you're doing is insulting the people who disagree with you.

drunix80 · Apr 30, 2019

It is quite well known what gesture an umpire uses to signal a point to an individual/team - raise their hand towards the side of the player which won the point. And secondly, an assistant umpire can't give the point to someone, it is the main umpire's job. And pointing her index finger towards the net obviously means the "net" .

For me, the sequence is quite clear:
1. Asst umpire signals a let
2. SYS looks towards the umpire and says OK (raises her hand)
3. Main umpire after some deliberation decides its a let
4. It does not seem she spoke or took into account any team's arguments to get to that decision

That's what mainly matters to me. I personally neither hold them (SYS/WMY) innocent nor guilty in this whole episode. I have played TT for 20 years and many times unless the server voluntarily raised his hand for let, I had no way of knowing a let as a receiver. Sometimes, it is other way round. So, it is highly debatable whether they cheated or not willingly. For CNT, the team could have shown more compassion in handling the situation (Ohh so sorry it was called "let" but we are not sure) . For JNT, the team should have known that such things can happen and as a professional you have to be mentally strong to overcome these situations.

tropical · Apr 30, 2019

Oh .. I see Zeio is using Wiki's common sense definition to say common sense is not a good term to use in debate. The term you don't have common sense means you are biased in this case because your reasoning about finger pointing sucks.

From a horizontal screen view, you or drunix80 can only assume the finger pointing to the net. It doesn't mean she meant the net and could be something else. And assuming is ASSU ME means you make an aSS-out-of -you and me.

The most important thing is SYS played like it was a normal ball, and the assistant umpire didn't point finger YET. Until the ball was out of the table and the JNT team celebrated then we saw the finger pointing and SYS pointed at the net, too. Such sequencing meant it was a normal and perfect serve.

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

https://hayabusa9.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/mnewsplus/1556496501/63

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

It's an undeniable fact I'm not using common sense here because common sense would force me to dismiss a cheater who cheated on his age to escape military duty.

tropical · Apr 30, 2019

Yeah I saw that video on the web and disagree with the person who posted it. It was not even close to be detectable even by slowing down 10X and zooming in 10X. How could an assistant/umpire 15 feet away with poor eyesight (hic hic )..see such minute tiny undetectable touch even we are here watching it play many times?

tropical · Apr 30, 2019

Ha ha .. cheating on age to avoid military duty? Where did you get it sonny?

RidTheKid · Apr 30, 2019

You guys are cute!

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

NoFootwork said:
It seems that LGY did not give the same talk to WMY/SYS. There are many instances where the umpire's call is wrong and the player that benefited from that bad call asks the umpire to change the call. When not changed, players have walked over to the scorers table and flipped the score to what it should be. Others give the point back by purposely losing the next point.

LGL/CNT needs to lock WMY/SYS in a room and make them watch the above examples over and over and over again until it gets burned into their heads. Then they need to not allow WMY/SYS to participate in several upcoming ITTF events, including especially the upcoming China Open which starts in late May.

Personally I was rooting for WMY in this WTTC as I like her style and due to her humble family circumstances before this ugly incident. Yes, it was ugly - both WMY and SYS had a clear view of the serve and whether or not it was a "let" there is no other way to parse it.

This was a wonderful WTTC full of unexpected results, the unveiling An Jaehyun, LSW winning her first WTTC Singles, Ma Long making a fantastic return after there were reports not that long ago that he might have to retire due to injuries, and on and on. And then this sh!t happens in the Women's Doubles finals as the last match of an event that had so many reasons for celebration.

A similar but less complex situation happened twice in the R16 b/w DN/LSW and Ishikawa/Hirano at the WTTC 2017.

Game 1, 9:9, Ishikawa serving. Both umpires and Japanese pair didn't think(or see) it was let. Point was given to Japanese pair. Slowmo appeared to suggest otherwise.

Game 2, 6:6, Hirano serving. More or less the same thing, but this time Ishikawa agreed.

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

RidTheKid said:
You guys are cute!

RidTheKid · Apr 30, 2019

Swedish media now pronounce Falck the second best player in the world, which I think is ludicrous. I'm discussing this with people who claim that "he won the silver medal therefore he's second best in the world"

This is exactly NOT the mentality Swedish TT needs. We need to understand this was a great individual success for Falck and continue to work even harder, investing more into the sport. More training centers, more people involved. The work is not done.

driversbeat · Apr 30, 2019

The big difference is that both times Liu Shiwen raised her hand before the point had ended. That should be the default rule. If no hands are raised before the point ends, then no lets can be called once the ball lands on the ground.

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

https://hochi.news/articles/20190429-OHT1T50282.html

　もやもやが残る敗戦となったが、一夜明け、早田は「結果は変わらないので。これを機にまたさらに強くなれるかなと思う。もう切り替えているので、大丈夫です」と気丈に語った。日本人ペアの銀メダルも１９７１年大会以来の快挙。「４８年ぶりの決勝進出もすごいことだと思いますし、いろんな経験もさせてもらえた。美誠とあの舞台で決勝を一緒に戦うことができて、すごく良かったなと思いました」とパートナーに感謝した。

　今回の問題を受け、日本卓球協会は２８日に国際卓球連盟に対し、ビデオ判定の導入などを求める抗議文を送付した。早田も「これで何かが変わればいいですし、私たちだけじゃなくて、他の選手たちがそういったことで負けたり、悔いが残って終わって欲しくない。選手は最後まで気持ち良く戦いたい。そういうところが少しでも改善されればいいなと思います」。悔しい敗戦が将来の卓球界のためとなることを願い、次なる戦いへ旅立った。

It was a defeat that left a lot of haze, but at dawn, Hayata said bravely, "I think the result will not change. I think this will make us even stronger. I'm already over it, so I'm fine." The silver medal of the Japanese pair is also a great achievement since the 1971 tournament. "I think it's great to be in the final for the first time in 48 years, and I have gained a lot of experiences. I thought it was very good to be able to fight in the final together with Ito."

In response to the problem, the Japan Table Tennis Association sent a protest letter to the International Table Tennis Federation on the 28th asking for the introduction of video review. "I hope this will change something, and not only we, but other players do not want to lose because of such things, and regret is left behind. We want the players to feel comfortable fighting until the end. However, I think it should be improved, even if only a little." Here I travel to the next battle, hoping that my regrettable defeat would be for the future of table tennis world.

Metaxa · Apr 30, 2019

tropical said:
Yeah I saw that video on the web and disagree with the person who posted it. It was not even close to be detectable even by slowing down 10X and zooming in 10X. How could an assistant/umpire 15 feet away with poor eyesight (hic hic )..see such minute tiny undetectable touch even we are here watching it play many times?

Maybe they have to introduce also the VAR (video assist referee) by table tennis. Exactly what they do now by football (soccer) in the Belgium competition/league.

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

zeio · Apr 30, 2019

https://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20190430/tab19043018150001-n1.html

　今回、初めて３種目に出場し、「メダルを取ることがこれだけ難しいんだと感じた」。特に事前に中国メディアから「大魔王」と称されるなど中国勢からは徹底マークを受けており、シングルスでは３回戦で同い年の孫穎莎に敗れてメダルに届かず。「中国は研究や対策をみんなで熱心に考えており、代表チームとして一人の選手を倒しに来ていると感じた。１ゲーム目の１本目から『１点もやらない』という思いを感じた」と振り返る。

　「（負けた試合では）実力の７、８割は出せたが、私は１０を出さないと勝てない。中国選手のように安定して勝つには、６、７割の力でも勝てるようにしないと」と反省。「中国対策より、質の高い練習で自分の力を上げていくことが大事。自分はまだまだだと感じたが、これから先、もっと上がれる」と敗北を前向きにとらえた。

Participating in 3 events for the first time, "I felt so difficult to win medals." In particular, from becoming the target for team China to being named the "Great Demon King" by the Chinese media in advance, and losing to the same-aged Sun Yingsha in the 3rd round of singles and hence failing to medal. "China has studied hard and come up with countermeasures together and I felt that the entire team came to defeat 1 player. I felt that "I won't get even 1 point" from the 1st game."

"I could play to 70, 80% of my ability (in a losing match), but I cannot win without 100%. In order to win steadily like a Chinese player, it is necessary to be able to win even at 60 to 70% of power." "It's more important to improve one's strength with high-quality practice than China measures. I feel that I am still not there yet, but I think that I can go further in the future".

yoass · Apr 30, 2019

ITTF and CNT still in crickets mode?

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