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  1. Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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    #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Celler
    Thank you very much ! Write, write, you are an eyewitness !!!
    of course ITO is lightning fast, but so are the Chinese players [well couldn't really see it today given their opponents were too weak, although CHEN Meng dropped one set to an Ukrainian chopper (Ganapova) and was 1 set all 4-8 in the 3rd.].

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    #862
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    I think the desire to have Hayata is leading us to construct too many narratives that keep her in the mix. Is there really a good reason not to field Hayata in Team World Cup if it is a realistic possibility? The conservative nature of the JNT selections is the consistent thread. Expectations of a radical deviation are based more on hope than experience.
    I agree that maybe I was getting a bit carried away with my narrative. However, after all, it's just a theory. I only have circumstantial evidence to back it up and no conclusive evidence, so it's perfectly fine to disagree with it. At the same time, no one has presented any conclusive evidence to the theory the TWC women's team was chosen solely on WR. The fact that Japan only fielded 4 players instead of 5 and that the Men's Team isn't based on WR, puts doubt that that theory. Until there's conclusive evidence presenting the criteria of how the TWC team was chosen, I think we're all free to theorize how the team was selected.

    There's less room for speculation in the selection of the alternate player since the JTTA set out the clear guidelines that the reserve player will be picked based on "International competitiveness in doubles and singles necessary for Japan to win medals." This gives JTTA room for discretion even though WR will likely play some role in determining the alternate. The factual circumstances of the Rio and Tokyo Olympics are quite different:

    In Rio, the 4th highest ranked players in Hirano and Oshima also happened to be good doubles players. Hirano has success with Ito and Oshima had success with Morizono. So while on its face, it appears that JTTA may have gone by WR in the selection of the alternate, their skillsets also make them the logical choice as the alternate.

    For Tokyo, the situation is different since the 4th highest ranked player is Sato, who is a chopper and does not necessarily fit the criteria of "International competitiveness in doubles and singles." The same goes with the Men's team where M. Yoshimura is being used more often as a doubles partner with the Top 3 Men's players than K. Yoshimura and Morizono who are both ranked higher than him. That's why JTTA opted to make the alternate spot based on discretion rather than placing that it would be purely based on WR. That gives them room for flexibility in the case the 4th highest ranked player is really incompatible.

    We'll likely know the answer to how JTTA will select the Olympic team by January 2020 when the official announcement is made. I still remain hopeful that JTTA will take other relevant factors into consideration and not just blindly go by WR.

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    #863
    apacible


    ...... I still remain hopeful that JTTA will take other relevant factors into consideration and not just blindly go by WR....

    Let me join your hope .....

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    #864
    I really think ITTF should switch up the team format to allow four players to compete so that players like Sato have the opportunity to play. As it stands it’s impossible to fit a chopper into a team unless they are top 2 in an association. For Korea they have the headache of playing Seo Hyowon in Singles even though she’s arguably the 3rd best player on the team. Also I’d love if they got rid of the ‘team captain players 2 singles out of the first 4 matches’ because so many teams are carried by one strong player alone. The only disadvantage to this rule would be strengthening China since it will be even harder to take them down even if one of their players has a bad day. I have a format in mind but I’m not sure if its worth the effort elaborating on it.

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    #865
    Quote Originally Posted by driversbeat
    I really think ITTF should switch up the team format to allow four players to compete so that players like Sato have the opportunity to play. As it stands it’s impossible to fit a chopper into a team unless they are top 2 in an association. For Korea they have the headache of playing Seo Hyowon in Singles even though she’s arguably the 3rd best player on the team. Also I’d love if they got rid of the ‘team captain players 2 singles out of the first 4 matches’ because so many teams are carried by one strong player alone. The only disadvantage to this rule would be strengthening China since it will be even harder to take them down even if one of their players has a bad day. I have a format in mind but I’m not sure if its worth the effort elaborating on it.
    I'd love to hear the details on that format if ever you have the time to elaborate further on it. The only leagues that I am aware of that uses the 4 player format is the US National College Table Tennis Championships, where the first four matches are singles matches played by 4 different players of each team. If the Tie Score is at 2-2, the 5th match is a doubles match where each team picks 2 of their 4 players to play doubles. The European Team Championships also uses a 4-player format where the 4th player can substitute in the middle of the team tie after the 3rd match has been played. The usual problem with the 4-player format is that the best players of each team may not face each other unless both teams happen the line up their best players at the same spot. This is bad in terms of watchability since most people want to see the top player of each team face-off against each other, which is why ITTF doesn't use a 4-player team format.

    Right now, the new Olympic format favors the ABC team over the XYZ team since the "Ace" player in the ABC team plays the 2nd and 4th match while the XYZ "Ace" player plays the 2nd and 5th match. Sometimes, the team tie never gets to the 5th match, so a team relying on their "Ace" player usually loses more often than not when they are the XYZ team. This isn't a problem with the 5-singles format, but is a problem with the Olympic Format with doubles. I would love the have the statistics of how often the ABC team wins against the XYZ team, but I seem to notice that the ABC team generally wins more often.

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    #866
    At the club we have a team format where 4 players must be fielded in the first 3 matches:
    Singles(A)
    Doubles(B/C)
    Singles(D)
    Doubles(C/D or A/B)
    Singles(B or C)
    Last edited by zeio; 11-07-2019 at 01:49 PM.
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    #867
    Basically a similar format to what Zeio has posted but rearranged to:

    1. Incorporate doubles in the first tie to emphasise its importance (and enhance the role of weaker players) as ITTF intended
    2. Add an element of unpredictability in the 4th and 5th ties for spectatorship. Right now all ties are determined the moment teams submit their lineups, but allowing for 4th and 5th ties to be decided after accessing a team's performance in the first three ties would be a talking point for spectators as well.

    Proposed Format:
    Doubles (A/B)
    Singles (C)
    Singles (D)
    Singles (A or B)
    Doubles (any configuration of players who did not play in tie 4)

    To illustrate my points, I'll use players from the current Japanese women's team since this is where the thread is posted, while possibly drawing on other nations/time periods where necessary.

    a. This will force teams to make a decision: Do you want your best player to be featured in 2 matches within the first 4 ties? If yes, then she may only play the fourth singles if the rest of the team is able to win at least one point (or if she's good at doubles). If they insist on sending him to singles, the team has more flexibility in deciding where she plays (2nd or 3rd tie).

    Ito/Hayata
    Hirano
    Ishikawa
    Ito
    Ishikawa/Hirano

    OR

    Ishikawa/Hirano
    Ito
    Hayata
    Hirano
    Ito/Hayata


    b. This flexibility allows the Sato-problem to be fixed. 1 out of 4 players will only play one tie and this will allow teams to field defenders more easily without having to think about fielding them in two singles that locks the rest of their lineup.

    Hirano/Ishikawa
    Ito
    Sato
    Ishikawa
    Ito/Hirano

    c. The player that only plays one tie may be 'hidden' in this format by allowing them to play in the first tie only. This spot may serve to introduce inexperienced players to big tournaments, or to protect players that are deemed ineffective against the opposing team while still allowing them to play (e.g. Ishikawa against China)

    Ishikawa/Hirano
    Hayata
    Ito (ties 2 and 3 swapped from previous examples to highlight the flexibility again)
    Hirano
    Hayata/Ito

    d. Alternatively, a player that has not proven themselves in singles but has had exemplary records in doubles may be fully utilised in this team format. I believe this was why ITTF introduced doubles into the olympic format as well in order to keep the event relevant since doubles events were scrapped after 2004.

    Sayaka/Fukuhara
    Ishikawa
    Ito
    Fukuhara
    Sayaka/Ishikawa

    Teams with only one or two strong players are heavily penalised in this format. While the current and previous olympic formats are less problematic in this aspect, the WTTC team format is prone to being a one or two man show as 80% of the fixture is covered by two players only. This has allowed many teams to get away with fielding under-developed players in the third fixture while still achieving good results.

    The most obvious example here is the Singapore women's team, which still lay within the quaterfinals/bronze medal range for much of 2013 to 2016 despite having only Feng Tianwei and Yu Mengyu as reliable players. In this alternate format, the only way Feng and Yu can cover 3 fixtures for Singapore to win a team match is if they allow the match to go the distance:

    Yee/Goh
    Feng
    Yu

    Yee
    Feng/Yu

    Any other configuration would see Feng or Yu paired up with a weaker team member in the final doubles fixture. I believe this will send a strong message to other nations to focus on developing players outside of their core team as well. Other offenders that have either coasted with only two strong players or have stuck with the same core team of 3 for many years and thus prevented their non-core players from getting exposure include
    Romania, Netherlands, South Korea, Austria

    There's a lot more that can be said about this, but one thing I wanted to add was that I'd much rather watch a doubles pair win the final tie than a single player become the 'hero' of the entire match. In fact, the entire reasoning behind this proposed format is to make all 5 ties equal in terms of magnitude and importance while eliminating the possibility that a team may win (or lose!) an entire match when one of their players has won two singles matches. In this format you won't get a repeat of the 2016 Olympic semifinals where Ishikawa won two singles matches and still had to taste defeat because the only way to win two matches is to win your singles tie on top of the doubles tie with someone else (other notable instances: Kim Kyung Ah vs Japan, WTTC 2010; Feng Tianwei vs North Korea, WTTC 2016)

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    More of such scenes could be possible maybe?

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    Last edited by driversbeat; 11-07-2019 at 04:38 PM.

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    #868
    In addition to the benefits you mentioned, there's another side benefit. You don't end up with a single individual getting a ridiculous number of ranking points from individual best of 5 matches. No disrespect to CIC intended, but at the 2018 World Team Championships, CIC gained 2250 points from winning 9 matches against mostly relatively weak opposition. 2250 points is equivalent to winning a Platinum Tour!

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    #869
    Quote Originally Posted by pongfugrasshopper
    In addition to the benefits you mentioned, there's another side benefit. You don't end up with a single individual getting a ridiculous number of ranking points from individual best of 5 matches. No disrespect to CIC intended, but at the 2018 World Team Championships, CIC gained 2250 points from winning 9 matches against mostly relatively weak opposition. 2250 points is equivalent to winning a Platinum Tour!
    I remember how surprised I was with the results of C.I.C. and F.T. (1750)

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    #870
    Quote Originally Posted by driversbeat
    c. The player that only plays one tie may be 'hidden' in this format by allowing them to play in the first tie only. This spot may serve to introduce inexperienced players to big tournaments, or to protect players that are deemed ineffective against the opposing team while still allowing them to play (e.g. Ishikawa against China)
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    #871
    Quote Originally Posted by driversbeat
    [...]

    Ishikawa/Hirano
    Hayata
    Ito (ties 2 and 3 swapped from previous examples to highlight the flexibility again)
    Hirano
    Hayata/Ito
    Just for safe keeping, in case the JNT asked me about the best lineup ...

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    Last edited by jawien; 11-07-2019 at 06:05 PM.

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    #872
    Another article, "I can't tell where I live", on Hayata's recent trips around the world fighting for points. She jokes about her talent for "sleeping" anytime, anywhere, without any jet lag.

    https://www.nishinippon.co.jp/nsp/item/n/555674/
    早田ひな「どこに住んでるか分からない」苦境の五輪代表候補が漏らした本音
    2019/11/1 6:00

    西日本スポーツ

     卓球の東京五輪代表争いが大詰めを迎えている。男女それぞれ三つの出場枠をかけ、選手たちは世界各国のプロツアーを転戦中。4月の世界選手権個人戦女子ダブルス銀メダルの早田ひな(日本生命)は厳しい立場に立たされている中で最後まで可能性を信じ、世界中を飛び回っている。

     10月下旬の羽田空港。スウェーデン・オープン(OP)、ドイツOP、ポーランドOPとヨーロッパでの3大会を終えて帰国した早田は笑いながら言った。

     「どこに住んでいるのか分からないんです」

     9月中旬には台風15号の影響で移動に四苦八苦しながらも南米で開催されたパラグアイOPで優勝。遠征のない短い日本滞在中も、各地で開催されるTリーグに参戦した。まさに「どこに住んでいるのか分からない」といった状況なのだ。

     卓球の東京五輪シングルス日本代表は2人。来年1月の世界ランキング上位2人が選出される。団体戦メンバーとなる3人目は、シングルス代表でもある2人とのダブルスの相性や世界ランキングを考慮して強化本部が推薦する。ただし、団体戦のシード順位はシングルスの世界ランキングによって決まるため、シングルスの順位がメンバー選考に大きく影響する。

     10月の世界ランキングで日本勢は7位伊藤美誠(スターツ)、8位石川佳純(全農)、9位平野美宇(日本生命)の3人が突出している。早田は伊藤とペアを組んだダブルスで実績があり中国選手にもひけを取らないパワーを高く評価されているものの、ランキングは日本選手で6番手の26位。ランキングに影響するポイントを上積みするため、出場試合数を増やしているのだ。

     スウェーデンOP、ドイツOPはともに決勝トーナメント1回戦で敗退。この2大会より格付けが低く、日本勢の上位3人が出場しなかったポーランドOPでは8強にとどまった。帰国時は「3大会、自分の思う通りの成績が出せなくて帰ってきたので、いつもより精神的に疲れる」と、さすがにダメージを隠せずにいた。

     それでも、最後までファイティングポーズはとり続ける決意を固めている。「試合の中で成長している実感がある。日程や体力的にしんどかったりするけど、自分の中で希望が見えているというか…。五輪を諦めていない気持ちはあるし、自分で変わりたいという思いや、自分だったら変われるという思いでやっている」

     幼いころから自身を知る石田大輔コーチら、ともに世界を回る「チームひな」の存在も大きい。「みんな目指しているところは同じ。可能性があるから教えてくれている。それに私も応えたい」と力を込める。

     時差ぼけがなく、どんな状況でも眠れることが大きな武器。取材の最後に早田は「書いておいてください」と言って、こう続けた。「寝ることは重要な才能」。前向きに笑いながら、19歳の五輪代表候補は次の試合の地へ向かう。(伊藤瀬里加)
    “I feel like I’m growing in the matches. The schedule is hard on my stamina, but I’m sure I can see hope. I won’t give up on the Olympics. I want to change myself. I am doing it with the thought that it will change if I change myself."

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    #873
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Another article, "I can't tell where I live", on Hayata's recent trips around the world fighting for points. She jokes about her talent for "sleeping" anytime, anywhere, without any jet lag.

    https://www.nishinippon.co.jp/nsp/item/n/555674/

    “I feel like I’m growing in the matches. The schedule is hard on my stamina, but I’m sure I can see hope. I won’t give up on the Olympics. I want to change myself. I am doing it with the thought that it will change if I change myself."

    Youthful ignorance can be a beautiful thing. I admire her drive and it will serve her well even in 2024 if not in 2020.

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    #874
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    Youthful ignorance can be a beautiful thing. I admire her drive and it will serve her well even in 2024 if not in 2020.

    Very well said ... I join you ..

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    #875
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    Youthful ignorance can be a beautiful thing. I admire her drive and it will serve her well even in 2024 if not in 2020.

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    #876
    by the way "Sayaka" is a first name. Her full name was Sayaka HIRANO.

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    #877
    https://twitter.com/tvtokyo_tt/statu...60068268576769
    #平野美宇 試合後インタビュー
    この1年で今日が一番強かったと思います。
    明日のために練習してきたので、明日は出し切りたいです!
    Hirano's post-match interview
    I'm the strongest today over the past year.
    I've been practicing for tomorrow, so I want to do it tomorrow!

    https://twitter.com/tvtokyo_tt/statu...61321081999361
    #伊藤美誠 試合後インタビュー
    落ち着いて2ゲーム目に臨めました。
    明日は自分らしく楽しんで決勝に挑みたいです。
    Ito's post-match interview
    I was able to calm down going into G2.
    I'd like to enjoy myself tomorrow and try to win the final.

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    #878
    Unfortunately, the Ishikawa-Hirano couple have no chance at all for tomorrow ....
    Start 0:1.....That means, to win, Ito needs to win two games and Hirano win one ....
    Extremely unlikely ...Especially if the youth will play for China ......

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    #879
    Poor Ishikawa .. She has a real chance to jump out of the top 10 in the December ITTF ranking ...
    (At least before Austria, the preliminary calculation is Hirano tenth, Ishikawa eleventh)....

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    #880
    In front of Austria
    Preliminary calculations of the December ITTF rating (WS) in front of Austria.


    11/2019 minim.(8th result) Deductions of old bonuses(11/2018)+current reserve Intermediate result

    4 - D.N. 13910 1440 (-1575,1440/res1170,1125) 13190 Aus T2
    5 - WANG Manyu 14210 1170 (-2025,1260/1125,1125) 13175 (no) T2
    6 - ITO Mima 13440 1440 (-1800/res 1170,1125) 12890 Aus T2
    7 - Z.Y.L. 14330 1250 (-1800,1620/900,675) 12485 Aus T2
    8 - F.T. 11660 1080 (-1350/900) 11210 Aus T2
    9 - C.I.C. 11360 880 (-1575/1250) 11035 Aus T2
    10- Hirano 11375 1020 (-1350/900) 10925 Aus T2
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    11- Ishikawa 11805 1170 (-1260/900,1500/900) 10845 Aus T2



    Please note, these are not final, but intermediate, minimum results of the December ITTF rating.
    After Austria, the results of some will change upward ....
    In addition, for all these players, the results will increase after T-2 (+ 400-1000 points) ...

    The Following User Likes Vlad Celler's Post:

    zeio

    Last edited by Vlad Celler; 11-10-2019 at 11:17 AM.

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