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    1. Top | #721
      driversbeat is offline
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      Or they could make r32 qualifiers earn more points than seeded players who get knocked out immediately. Seems fair.

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    3. Top | #722
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      Quote Originally Posted by driversbeat View Post
      Or they could make r32 qualifiers earn more points than seeded players who get knocked out immediately. Seems fair.
      Ultimately, I believe the issue lies with the new ranking system which prioritises participation above all (and hence the sometimes ridiculous number of entries) and further contributes to the current Chinese hegemony more than anything else. Ironically, it was a revision that some opine were meant to curb said team's dominance ~ You can increase the number of points qualifiers earn from early exits and/or the number of people who can make the main draw, but the outcome will likely be the same, that is each association sending waves of players to outdo each other. Kind of spoils the game IMO.

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    5. Top | #723
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      I’m forwarding you the question Hina Hayata .... Your opinion?

      Hayata Hina 早田 ひな Fans Page

      The judgement of this point may turn around the game result?

      https://youtu.be/R2jNo72qxKU

      09.44 - ....
      Last edited by Vlad Celler; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:04 PM.

    6. Top | #724
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      Quote Originally Posted by Janard View Post
      Ultimately, I believe the issue lies with the new ranking system which prioritises participation above all (and hence the sometimes ridiculous number of entries) and further contributes to the current Chinese hegemony more than anything else. Ironically, it was a revision that some opine were meant to curb said team's dominance ~ You can increase the number of points qualifiers earn from early exits and/or the number of people who can make the main draw, but the outcome will likely be the same, that is each association sending waves of players to outdo each other. Kind of spoils the game IMO.
      Sorry. Blaming the new ranking system for the myopia of TT associations that can hire whole staffs to analyze the matches of opponents is a bit much. If people really care about ELO ranking, they can build a system to track it. China does theirs a bit differently and people still think they are wrong.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    8. Top | #725
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      Quote Originally Posted by driversbeat View Post
      Or they could make r32 qualifiers earn more points than seeded players who get knocked out immediately. Seems fair.
      ITTF has already tried a system where R32 qualifiers get more points than seeded players that lose in the first round last year before changing it in 2019. Last year, if you’re a seeded player that loses in the first round, you will only get ½ the usual points you would normally get when losing in the first round. This was implemented at a time where the WR points given for R32 and R16 exits were still very high and not yet deflated like this year’s points. For example, one would normally get 1125 points when losing in R32 for a platinum event, but if you’re a seeded player, you would only get 563 points. If you’re a qualifier that loses in the first round, you still get 1125 points. The problem with this system is that your first-round draw has more of an impact under the old system than in the current system. A player consistently drawing under-ranked Chinese qualifiers will be penalized harder in the old system than in the current system. Under the 1/2 penalty rule, the ranking points you get are so small that it's almost as if the seeded player had not participated in the tournament at all.

      To illustrate, here are the stats for last year’s World Tour for seeded players
      Ito- drew a CNT opponent 6/11 times in the first round. Ito won 4/6 of those matches. Had Ito lost all these matches, she might be hovering in the top 20 rather than the top 10 right now due to the 1/2 rule.
      Hayata- drew a CNT opponent 4/8 times in the first round. She lost all 4 matches and is part of the reason she was unseeded for the rest of the year and the negative effect has carried on to this year.
      Ishikawa- drew a CNT opponent only 1/11 times in the first round and lost that match.

      The new system solves the problem of the old system by making the first round draw less impactful on your ranking points, but may protect seeded players too much to the point that they get the same amount of WR points for immediately losing in the first round than a qualifier who wins 2-3 matches in qualifications but loses in the first round. Maybe a compromise where the seeded player who loses in the first round gets the same number of points as a loser in the last qualification round before the main draw? It wasn't a good time to be a seeded player last year, but this year, being a seeded player is really beneficial and it's harder now for qualifiers to become seeded players.
      Last edited by apacible; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:12 PM.

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    10. Top | #726
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      I think every WR system has flaws. Even the old one was flawed since it completely disregarded participation to the point that you could maintain your ranking by playing once every 4 months. The fault lies not with the ranking system itself but in JTTA's sole reliance on the ranking system to determine the Olympic spots despite knowing that WR doesn't tell the whole story. WR doesn't measure the level of the opponent you've beaten or lost to but how far in the tournament you've gone. WR can't tell the difference between a 4-0 loss and a 4-3 loss. WR can't tell the difference between a seeded player who lost his first match in the R32 and a qualifier who won 4 round of qualification rounds but also lost in the R32.

      Making Olympic spots dependent on WR has pushed Japan's players to play more tournaments than needed for WR points instead of taking an extended break to improve their skills. Ito was the only one courageous enough to skip all September tournaments and train because it would help her in the long-run. Hayata's best form came last year from Mid-October onwards. Before this, she didn't participate in any tournament and trained from late August to early October. After that, she ended up beating players she has never beaten before like Feng Tianwei, Cheng I-Ching, Ishikawa, and some lower-level Chinese players. After close losses in the last 3 tournaments, I think it would benefit her to take another "break" to make another jump in level and the same applies for Ishikawa and Hirano who have been playing non-stop for WR points. It's unfortunate that that "break" won't happen till the end of the year, but once the WR race is over, I do hope they all are willing to skip some tournaments next year before the Olympics to make a jump in level before the actual event.

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    12. Top | #727
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      We're on the last legs of the calendar. Women's World Cup this coming Friday. Ishikawa's fate is literally up in the air. Can Hayata knock Kato off the 4th spot before the end of the year, with "merely" 785 pts between the 2 now? So close yet so far.

      The Men's World Cup and Austrian Open will be game-changing for Niwa. He'll seriously have to perform in these 2.
      ...
      Tally after the WWC and Polish Open.

      Merely 65 points b/w Hirano and Ishikawa now. Hayata not winning the Polish Open means she will have to win Belarus Open and reach the SF in Austrian Open, while Kato will have to finish R16, tops, in order for her to knock Kato off the 4th spot.


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    14. Top | #728
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      In my eyes Hayata reaching 4. place isnt that important for her or JTTA. I cant imagine a scenario where Kato gets nominated for the olympic team. The 3. player on the team has to be good in doubles. Additionally JTTA wants to pair a right-handed and a left-handed player. Kato is right-handed and to my knowledge no great doubles player. If she gets nominated you have to pair her with Ishikawa, which isnt a great doubles player either.

      Hayata only has a shot for the team, if Hirano gets the singles spot over Ishikawa, but Im 90% sure even then JTTA goes with Ito, Hirano and Ishikawa. You want Ito to play both singles. Hayata would pair a better double with Hirano then Ishikawa, but Ishikawa might have the edge in singles. With JTTA focus on the Worldranking they will field Ishikawa over Hayata even so.
      Last edited by karupinkun; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:01 PM.

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    16. Top | #729
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      Tally after the WWC and Polish Open.

      Merely 65 points b/w Hirano and Ishikawa now. Hayata not winning the Polish Open means she will have to win Belarus Open and reach the SF in Austrian Open, while Kato will have to finish R16, tops, in order for her to knock Kato off the 4th spot.

      To put into perspective just how costly Ishikawa's and Hirano's early exits were this World Cup: Feng Tianwei has 10585 WR points for Jan. 2020 after her amazing October performances. That's more than Hirano or Ishikawa. Whoever among them gets the second singles spot is in danger of not being a Top 4 seed in the Olympics and facing a Chinese player earlier than the SF. The 2nd singles player may not even get a chance to make it to the medal match. Then again, both Ishikawa and Hirano lost to non-Chinese players in the World Cup so even if they were seeded in the top 4, getting to a medal match isn't guaranteed for either of them. Still, this may push either of them to continue playing tournaments early in 2020 just for seeding purposes instead of using that time for training to reach a higher level before the Olympics.

      On a lighter note, Lily's amazing World Cup performance actually puts her at 7115 WR points for Jan. 2020. She's on pace to be ranked higher than Hayata and closely ranked to where Kato and Sato are. Congrats, Lily!

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    18. Top | #730
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      Poor Hayata .... Honestly, I am very, very sorry for this talented girl .....

      October ITTF Hayata rating - 7570...The minimum 8th result is so far 675 ....There are no deductions of old points for October 2018 .....
      Even if Hayata wins the tournament in Belarus, the November rating will be - 7570 + (850-675) = 7745..nr.25 maximum...
      KATO Miyu - November rating - 8130...nr.21...

      When calculating the December ITTF Kato rating, the deduction of old points 11/2018 - 1260(of course, with a replacement from the reserve ...)

      When calculating the December ITTF Hayata rating, the deduction of old points (-1125,-900,-600/WWC-2018).....Taking into account the existing reserve, a drop may be within 1000 points .....Austria will not help, even if Hayata reaches the final ...
      Last edited by Vlad Celler; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:28 PM.

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    20. Top | #731
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Celler View Post
      My opinion is that the characterization that Zeyo gives to Hina Hayata is very, very accurate .....

      Injuries of 2018 drove Hayata into a hole ... And now, with the new ITTF rating system and the new tactics of the Chinese women's team, when China sends many players even to unpretentious tournaments .....


      Hina Hayata is tired, this is obvious ..... Hence the self-doubt .....
      Did some lookups. I mixed up Kato and Shibata.

      It was Shibata that was seeded until Czech Open. Kato was seeded only in Bulgaria Open and Czech Open.

      That makes Hayata the only one among the top 8 on the JNT to start in prelim all year long.

      ----------------------

      As for Hayata's injury, she got the jumper's knee at the WJTTC 2016 and then her wrist was injured at the All-Japan Championships 2017. Despite that, she played rather well in 2017, mostly finishing in QF and R16. I'm not sure when she made a full recovery, but those results still got her to WR11 in Jan, 2018 when the new system kicked in.

      In 2018, she finished mostly in R16 and R32. She was seeded for the first half of the year given her ranking. Then in Korea Open, she pulled out of the group after her wrist injury flared up again. She was seeded again in Bulgaria and Czech since top CNT players didn't play, but China started flooding the Opens with low/no-rank players and no one could escape. Things then started going downhill quickly from September and onwards, leaving her in a really weak position for 2019.

      Her body also matured a lot in 2018, apparently gaining more muscle, especially in the legs, toward the end of the year, finally losing the lanky gait. She looked like a different person near the end of the year.




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    22. Top | #732
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by driversbeat View Post
      ITTF used to have tournaments that started from the round of 64 and round of 128. Maybe they should consider implementing it again to make things more fair. Seeded players can just maintain their ranking now by attending tournaments and winning their first match every now and then.
      Did some lookup again. Main draw of 32 started sporadically for China Open, Japan Open and Korea Open around 2011 while main draw of 64 remained for German Open, Swedish Open, Austrian Open etc. It appeared European players, for good reasons, were hesitant to travel to Asia just to play 1 match, especially for China Open.

      Talks of main draw of 32 started in late 2014, around the same time when a new ranking was requested by the Athletes' Commission. It officially took effect starting with World Tour Super Series(now World Tour Platinum) in 2015.

      https://web.archive.org/web/20150316...s_Shanghai.pdf
      6.6 Ratification of the 2015 World Tour official documents
      The following changes were presented and proposed:
       The rationale behind the changes is to make the events more
      attractive for the TV and media especially in the Super Series.
       Further investigation in sport presentation should follow, in order to
      have the events presented in a more professional and consistent way,
      including fixed schedule for the last 3 days with more matches on 1
      table.
       Suggested change in the playing system for the Super series: 32
      players in the main draw (16 seeded and 16 qualified).
       The minimum prize money has been raised in all 3 tiers; in the 2015
      calendar there are 6 Super, 6 Major and 11 Challenge Series events
      plus the Grand Finals.
       For the Challenge series the number of days is set to 5 days and 6
      events, whereby TV production needs to be secured for at least 1 day
      (before it wasn’t compulsory).
       For the Grand Finals the prize money will be redistributed: from
      USD1,000,000 to USD500,000; the incentive didn’t result in an
      increased interest in qualification. However, with the redistribution
      each tour event will have more prize money, and the total fund for
      the World Tour is increased to USD3,000,000 (USD240,000 increase
      compared to 2014).
       The documents were ready for distribution.

      7-EC-12-2014
      The Executive Committee ratified all the proposed changes and modifications
      related to the GAC Group 2015 World Tour. Any possible future changes for 2016
      and beyond will be analyzed after a review of the Series.

      6.7 Ranking system 2015 and testing:
       For the 2015 World Ranking System a new Bonus category, B5 –
      “Regional Events and Other Open International Competitions (all age
      categories)”, will be introduced.
       In the B4 Bonus Points category the “Multi-Sport Competitions”
      should not be listed to avoid not being complete, instead only the
      general reference has to be kept.
       A compression of the January 2015 ranking will be performed (last
      time done in 2010) in order to make the gap between players
      smaller, which allows more dynamics in terms of movements.
       The conditions to enter on the World Ranking List will be relaxed,
      which will result in achieving initial player status easier and increase
      the overall number of players on the List.
       In relation to the 4 months inactivity period it was noticed that the
      status of these players was confusing as they were not allocated a
      nominal position, but they still appeared on the World Ranking List
      and if participating at a certain events they were considered on the
      seeding list. 3 different options were presented:
      a) To continue with the current system;
      b) To put on a separate list the inactive players, i.e. to create and
      Inactivity List, from which the inactive players would still be
      considered for seeding, but not for the selections, qualifications and
      invitations for specific tournaments); and
      c) Players with 4 months inactivity are shaded and receive an
      inactivity warning, but keep their ranking position and consequently
      are considered as active players in terms of seeding, selection,
      qualifications and invitations, which was the former system.

      8-EC-12-2014
      The Executive Committee approved the 2015 World Ranking System with all the
      presented changes, and decided to create an “Inactivity List”: Players with 4
      months inactivity (grey shaded) are indicated on a separate list. Players on the
      “inactivity list” are considered for seeding purposes, but not for selections,
      qualifications and invitations to specific tournaments.

       A comprehensive analysis with different testing calculations shall be
      carried out based on the assumption that the World Ranking system
      doesn’t support in the best possible way the ITTF competition
      properties, which makes it very difficult to sell them effectively.
       The system needs to be reviewed together with the Athletes
      Commission as some anomalies are occurring, for example the
      participation at the World Tour has a minor impact on the World
      Ranking List.
       The proposal is to test different ranking systems that will be run in
      parallel to the current one allowing comparisons.
      Page 9
       There will be 5 different tests to be run, 3 of them proposed by the
      Athletes Commission.
       A working group will be nominated composed by the following
      members: the President, 1 representative of the Athletes
      Commission, 1 staff member, the Technical Commissioner. For the
      future it is recommended to involve also other external stakeholders
      and coaches, journalists and players from different levels/strengths in
      order to get an as objective picture as possible.
       No major changes should be adopted before the 2016 Olympic
      Games.

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    24. Top | #733
      Vlad Celler is offline
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      Thanks a lot Zeio!
      Very good review!

    25. Top | #734
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      Hayata for Tokyo 2020!










      More TWC promos.



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    27. Top | #735
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      Zeyo, Zeyo ..... How to thank you ..... You are doing just incredible ....

    28. Top | #736
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      JTTA has confirmed the entries for T2 Singapore yesterday. Qualifications are based on the World Tour Standings after German Open.

      Harimoto and Mizutani
      Ito, Ishikawa, Hirano and Sato.

      http://www.jtta.or.jp/tournament/tab...2/Default.aspx
      https://www.ittf.com/2019/01/15/t2-d...s-2019-latest/
      https://ittf.cdnomega.com/eu/2019/01...ngs-MS-GER.pdf
      https://ittf.cdnomega.com/eu/2019/01...ngs-WS-GER.pdf


      Last edited by zeio; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:11 AM.

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    30. Top | #737
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      The struggle for the distribution of 8-11 places in the November- December 2019 and January 2020 ITTF (WS) ratings will be very interesting .....

    31. Top | #738
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      Fuji TV's interview with Hirano after her R16 exit at the World Cup.

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    33. Top | #739
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      Strongest-Ever Japan Assembled


      Hayata: You didn't invite me?
      Last edited by zeio; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:15 PM.

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    35. Top | #740
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      Yoshimura ???- really?

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