Is ma long the GOAT ?

“Nicht ärgern. Nur wundern.”

(Don’t be annoyed. Just be amazed.)

As I put previously in this thread, there is no multiple choice for GOAT, JW or ML. ML, as humble as he always is, thinks that he has not reached the status of JW as legend. He does NOT consider any one else, no other grand slam winners and no other non grand slam winners. If you take ML's words so seriously, he said he lost to WH in 2013 WTTC not due to lack of mental strength

One kind of disagreements here is that there should be multiple "greatest of his time" and no "greatest of all time". It will be more convincing if they give more objective criteria to define "his time". I think the duration between first and last WTTC/OG can be one. And then compare the duration of different "his time". WLQ (6 year) is better than WH (1 year) and MLin (1 year). I think that is acceptable.

Another kind of disagreements is very double-standard. If the gold content of ML's WTTC MS titles is low; so is JW's. If ZJK was not in his prime in 2016 OG, so was not WH in 2012 OG. I understand some fans just cannot accept facts and they even disgrace their idols in order to disgrace others.

rainneverever said:

The choice for the best player ever, is simple, Jan-Ove Waldner or Ma Long. Ma Long was asked this question in Liebherr Live, but unfortunately the interpreter mistranslated into who is the currently best. What does Ma Long think of Waldner? He was asked by Spin College during 2019 WTTC and said, "Waldner is a legend"; in Liebherr Live, he said, "The strongest feeling (after winning the third title)...I hope to become as a legend as Jan-Ove Waldner". Although Ma Long does not compare himself and Waldner directly, he shows full respect to Waldner and he may think himself can improve even further to reach the status of Waldner. I of course have faith in Ma Long. He is not playing for titles at this stage but for passion and joy and he is still making more history.
I hope Waldner can share his own thoughts on the same questions, who is the currently best (he correctly predicted that Ma Long would win 2015 and 2017 WTTC before the tournaments and Ma Long would beat Mattias Falck 4-1 before the final in 2019) and who is the best ever.

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rainneverever said:

As I put previously in this thread, there is no multiple choice for GOAT, JW or ML. ML, as humble as he always is, thinks that he has not reached the status of JW as legend. He does NOT consider any one else, no other grand slam winners and no other non grand slam winners. If you take ML's words so seriously, he said he lost to WH in 2013 WTTC not due to lack of mental strength

One kind of disagreements here is that there should be multiple "greatest of his time" and no "greatest of all time". It will be more convincing if they give more objective criteria to define "his time". I think the duration between first and last WTTC/OG can be one. And then compare the duration of different "his time". WLQ (6 year) is better than WH (1 year) and MLin (1 year). I think that is acceptable.

Another kind of disagreements is very double-standard. If the gold content of ML's WTTC MS titles is low; so is JW's. If ZJK was not in his prime in 2016 OG, so was not WH in 2012 OG. I understand some fans just cannot accept facts and they even disgrace their idols in order to disgrace others.

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Some statements are puzzling. If ZJK was not in his prime in 2016, then Wang Hao was not in his prime in 2012.

Come again? Prime is a relative word. By 2016 people were not even sure that ZJK should be playing Olympics.

In 2012, WH was by any strength measure still one of the top players in the world. Almost impossible to beat. And 1 year later he returned to prove it again against Ma Long.

It is things like this that make me wonder what it is like to be a fangirl.

Ma Long is clearly the king of the plastic ball era. No argument. Lol.

http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2037

We can now add - GOAT of plastic ball era - Ma Long.

I'm beat here. Could someone translate the 2nd paragraph here? It's about how the PTSD of WTTC 2009 and 2011 still haunted him when facing WH in 2013...all in ML's words.

zeio said:

Are they the same thing? I could be hallucinating here since you guys are ganging up on me.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...st-decorated-heavyweight-of-all-time.3310541/


USOC differentiates the 2 as well.

https://www.teamusa.org/News/2016/A...-Has-Become-The-Greatest-Olympian-Of-All-Time

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I'm sorry you felt ganged up.
I'm not trying to convince every tt fan out there that ML is the GOAT. By my humble standard, he is the GOAT (purely personal subjective opinion). In fact, I don't even care who your GOAT tt player is.

I was just curious about how you differentiate between "most decorated" and "greatest".

The two references you listed don't explain your point. I even read the second article about Michael Phelps, just trying to understand your point. Phelps is the GOAT Olympian because of his passion and talent for the sport? Because of defining moments like the 200 fly event in 2012 Olympic? Because of his focus/desire to win after coming back from DUI suspension? Which one of the above makes Phelps GOAT? Or is it none of the above? You referenced this article, you clearly agree with at least some parts of it.

References can be used to support an argument, but you can't just throw a bunch of quotes together and call it an explanation.
Could you clearly articulate your reason(s)? What, in your opinion, makes someone (e.g. Phelps) GOAT, without being the most decorated?

I said before a winner is a winner, no matter who the opponent one faced. But many people just don't get that and that's why they are double-standard.
For example, they think 16 OG is between a healthy ML at his prime (they neglected the fact that cortisone shot was taken before OG though; I agree that he was at his prime as the defending WTTC champion) and an injured past prime ZJK (they neglected the fact that no cortisone shot was taken before OG; I agree that he was not at his prime as he failed to defend his 2013 WTTC champion in 2015). Then you can simply apply the same logic to 12 OG when a healthy ZJK at his prime (no cortisone shot taken before OG; at his prime as the defending WTTC champion) faced a non-healthy past prime WH (cortisone shot taken before OG; and remember what zeio quoted, he put on weight even in 2011; not at his prime as he failed to defend his 2009 WTTC champion in 2011). My point is simple: don't be double standard. If ML's victory over ZJK in 2016 OG was unworthy, so was ZJK's victory over WH in 2012. If ML's victory was worthy, so was ZJK's.

Being at prime (or say in best form) does not guarantee victory and not all winners were at their prime. Because TT is a sport and TT not only requires physical but also brain power.

NextLevel said:

Some statements are puzzling. If ZJK was not in his prime in 2016, then Wang Hao was not in his prime in 2012.
Come again? Prime is a relative word. By 2016 people were not even sure that ZJK should be playing Olympics.

In 2012, WH was by any strength measure still one of the top players in the world. Almost impossible to beat. And 1 year later he returned to prove it again against Ma Long.

It is things like this that make me wonder what it is like to be a fangirl.

Ma Long is clearly the king of the plastic ball era. No argument. Lol.

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rainneverever said:

I said before a winner is a winner, no matter who the opponent one faced. But many people just don't get that and that's why they are double-standard.
For example, they think 16 OG is between a healthy ML at his prime (they neglected the fact that cortisone shot was taken before OG though; I agree that he was at his prime as the defending WTTC champion) and an injured past prime ZJK (they neglected the fact that no cortisone shot was taken before OG; I agree that he was not at his prime as he failed to defend his 2013 WTTC champion in 2015). Then you can simply apply the same logic to 12 OG when a healthy ZJK at his prime (no cortisone shot taken before OG; at his prime as the defending WTTC champion) faced a non-healthy past prime WH (cortisone shot taken before OG; and remember what zeio quoted, he put on weight even in 2011; not at his prime as he failed to defend his 2009 WTTC champion in 2011). My point is simple: don't be double standard. If ML's victory over ZJK in 2016 OG was unworthy, so was ZJK's victory over WH in 2012. If ML's victory was worthy, so was ZJK's.

Being at prime (or say in best form) does not guarantee victory and not all winners were at their prime. Because TT is a sport and TT not only requires physical but also brain power.

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Your point of view is interesting. It doesn't pass my smell test but it is interesting. I never defined prime as failing to defend your title. In fact I don't think Ma Long had any title at his prime (second half of 2011) though this is my opinion. My point is that those of us who watched the matches and know what the players used to do and how they performed can judge whether they were relatively strong or weak compared to their best. Which of Ma Long's opponents in 2019 was as great as Wang Hao or Zhang Jike in 2012? Crickets...

NextLevel said:

It is things like this that make me wonder what it is like to be a fangirl.

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Don't have time to engage meaningfully in this thread but I just have to say that responding to a good-faith argument in this manner is complete bullshit. NextLevel, I feel like you usually have good insights and can do better.

Rain, sorry that this is considered a valid avenue of conversation on this forum. Your posts are always thoughtful and civil. I think some people assume that having a point of view disqualifies you from having valid input. It doesn't, obviously, because we all have preferences and biases (whether we convey these openly or not). What is important is the thought process behind these beliefs and the ability to present coherent arguments for them. I think you do a better job of this than the vast majority of forum-goers. Just a bit of validation (I've noticed people being rude in this way before).

Of course, I'm in no position to police or judge anyone. Just taking a break from my statistical modeling to check out the forum. And I was already bummed about the statistics crap not working. So I'm being cranky . If y'all are having fun don't let me spoil it.

NextLevel said:

Your point of view is interesting. It doesn't pass my smell test but it is interesting. I never defined prime as failing to defend your title. In fact I don't think Ma Long had any title at his prime (second half of 2011) though this is my opinion. My point is that those of us who watched the matches and know what the players used to do and how they performed can judge whether they were relatively strong or weak compared to their best. Which of Ma Long's opponents in 2019 was as great as Wang Hao or Zhang Jike in 2012? Crickets...

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I think if one cannot defend any major title AND cannot regain any major title later on, it is a clear indication that his prime time is past. Look at the chart I posted earlier, JW won 1989 WTTC and 1992 OG, failed to defend WTTC and OG titles, regained WTTC in 1997. It is not fair to say his prime passed right after 1993 (as reigning OG champion, ended up 1993 WTTC SF) but definitely after 1999 (1999 WTTC SF and 2000 OG runner-up, still impressive). Similarly as reigning champions, WH did not win 2011 WTTC and later; ZJK did not win 2015 WTTC and later' they did not come back like JW did in 1997. That's why I say WH's prime was past in 2012 and ZJK's prime was past in 2016.


We netizens here have interesting discussions based on how we watched the games (depending on the level we understand the sport) and what we learned from sources (sorry, likely biased due to language barrier). For example you think ML's prime is 2011 and I think his peak is 2015 while ML and Qin Zhijian think his best form is in 2016 (may include 2017). And these thoughts will affect many perspectives. You may think ML failed to deliver in 2013 because you think he already peaked in 2011 and he was to blame. And I think he did not deliver in 2013 because he has not reached peak although he had some chance. Likewise I think FZD has not reached his peak yet and it is normal he did not deliver in 2019 WTTC, some others may think he is at his prime then he is to blame, perhaps including LGL as before the tournament, he thought FZD was ready like ML in 2015.


Your last sentence about 2019 WTTC came back to the gold content argument. Different tournaments cannot be compared this way because the tension, quota and schedule are too different. At OG one only meets teammate in the final (since 2012) while at WTTC, there are more chances to face teammates even with a lucky draw. One can argue for CNT players, playing teammate is more difficult because they know each other well; one can also argue that playing non-CNT players who are on the blacklist of CNT (1st, 2nd, 3rd tier major rivals when CNT made preparations for each WTTC) is more difficult because one cannot afford a loss to non-CNT in major events. So I list all CNT teammates and major rivals for each recent WTTC winner (#seeding) as "toughness" test.


2007 WLQ(#2) beat Hou Yingchao(#13), Hao Shuai(#10), MLin(#1) (7 CNT players attended, beat 2 out of other 3 in his half) and Ryu Seung-Min (#9, 1st tier)
2009 WH(#1) beat ML(#3), WLQ(#4) (7 CNT players attended, beat 1 out of other 2 in his half)
2011 ZJK(#3) beat WLQ(#9), WH(#1) (7 CNT players attended, beat 1 out of other 3 in his half) and Timo Boll (#2, 1st tier), Joo Sae-hyuk (#10, 1st tier)
2013 ZJK(#4) beat FZD(#27), XX(#1), WH(#3) (7 CNT players attended, beat 2 out of other 3 in his half) and Patrick Baum (#20, 2nd tier)
2015 ML(#1) beat FZD(#3), FB(#13) (6 CNT players attended, beat another 1 in his half) and Joo Sae-hyuk (#15, 1st tier)
2017 ML(#1) beat XX (#3), FZD(#2) (5 CNT players attended, beat 1 out of other 2 in his half) and Chuang Chih Yuan (#9, 1st tier), Timo Boll (#8, 1st tier)
2019 ML(#11) beat LJK(#9), LGY(#3) (5 CNT players attended, beat 2 out of other 3 in his half) and Hugo Calderano (#7, 2nd tier), Vladimir Samsonov (#18, 2nd tier), Mattias Falck (#16, 3rd tier)


Obviously, 2009 is the "easiest" one. 2015 is easy. 2011 and 2017 are tough. 2019 could be tougher for ML if FZD beat LJK and/or XX reached the final instead of Mattias Falck as many predicted; but that's not ML's fault.


I also found this article from CTTA after 2009 WTTC suggesting TT world was so weak in 2009.
http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2009/0504/96810.html
在对手逐渐式微的今天，中国男乒的实力变得逐渐如女队一样让对手恐惧。试问未来，男乒对手在哪里？是朱世赫、柳承敏、波尔、施拉格，还是更年轻的松平健太、江天一？这一切都还需要对手们的努力，毕竟，缺乏了竞争和悬念，这比赛的吸引力也就减弱了。
Nowadays as the opponents decline, CNT men's team becomes more and more formidable like CNT women's team. Shall we ask where are the future opponents of CNT men's team? Joo Sae-hyuk, Ryu Seung-Min, Timo Boll and Werner Schlager, or younger ones like Koki Niwa and Jiang Tianyi? Our opponents shall work harder. After all, the sport will become less attractive if there is no competitions and surprises.


By contrast, LGL does not think the TT world is weaker now.
https://cn.ittf.com/2019/05/liu-guo-liang-conclude-world-championships/
布达佩斯世乒赛以5冠完美收官，刘国梁在满意的同时也感到很大压力：“这次中国队以超水平的发挥展现给世界，大家在过程中虽然跌宕起伏，但是结果是好的。只不过对奥运的要求上，我希望大家能够平常心，冷静地看待中国队，包括世界乒坛的发展。特别是男子方面，世界群雄并起，哪个人出来都不好打。
Winning 5 titles in Budapest, LGL was satisfied and pressured, "This time CNT outperforms. The results are good although it is not a smooth path. I hope people can stay calm when they look forward to the results of 2020 OG and look at the development of TT world. Especially on men's side, there are many strong players around the world, none of them are easy to play with."

Trismegistus said:

Don't have time to engage meaningfully in this thread but I just have to say that responding to a good-faith argument in this manner is complete bullshit. NextLevel, I feel like you usually have good insights and can do better.

Rain, sorry that this is considered a valid avenue of conversation on this forum. Your posts are always thoughtful and civil. I think some people assume that having a point of view disqualifies you from having valid input. It doesn't, obviously, because we all have preferences and biases (whether we convey these openly or not). What is important is the thought process behind these beliefs and the ability to present coherent arguments for them. I think you do a better job of this than the vast majority of forum-goers. Just a bit of validation (I've noticed people being rude in this way before).

Of course, I'm in no position to police or judge anyone. Just taking a break from my statistical modeling to check out the forum. And I was already bummed about the statistics crap not working. So I'm being cranky . If y'all are having fun don't let me spoil it.

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It is hard to argue in good Faith with someone who doesn't declare their biases upfront. If you want to do it, go ahead. I would rather at least make those biases clear if she won't. Because we always know the conclusion no matter how many arguments will get us there. That makes it harder to read the argument. Sometimes we need to declare what would change our minds etc. But you know this stuff already you just think I am out of line.

NextLevel said:

It is hard to argue in good Faith with someone who doesn't declare their biases upfront. If you want to do it, go ahead. I would rather at least make those biases clear if she won't. Because we always know the conclusion no matter how many arguments will get us there. That makes it harder to read the argument. Sometimes we need to declare what would change our minds etc. But you know this stuff already you just think I am out of line.

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Well I think it's pretty well known that Rain is a ML fan. But neutrality is not a requirement for being able to argue in good faith (actually neutrality often correlates with being uninformed). Yes, I understand that sometimes fans can seem dogmatic, like maybe their view of ML being the GOAT is there a priori rather than coming about as a result of the evidence. I guess the truth is probably somewhere in the middle for anyone making a claim that a certain player is the GOAT. But I thought all the arguments Rain made here were fair. (Also, one can be a fan of a certain player w/o being motivated to diminish another player; e.g. I think ML and ZJK are both great players, but think one is a bit more great).
Anyway, keep up the debate! It's exciting to be around at a time where some of the greatest players ever are playing, hopefully someday I'll have the time to share my own thoughts on the ML question

Trismegistus said:

Well I think it's pretty well known that Rain is a ML fan. But neutrality is not a requirement for being able to argue in good faith (actually neutrality often correlates with being uninformed). Yes, I understand that sometimes fans can seem dogmatic, like maybe their view of ML being the GOAT is there a priori rather than coming about as a result of the evidence. I guess the truth is probably somewhere in the middle for anyone making a claim that a certain player is the GOAT. But I thought all the arguments Rain made here were fair. (Also, one can be a fan of a certain player w/o being motivated to diminish another player; e.g. I think ML and ZJK are both great players, but think one is a bit more great).
Anyway, keep up the debate! It's exciting to be around at a time where some of the greatest players ever are playing, hopefully someday I'll have the time to share my own thoughts on the ML question

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I realize I am especially picky when I was talking/arguing with some people who keep making things up or taking things for granted. One example is that NL tried to make a point based on his "observation" that ML refused post-match interview in 2019 Asia Cup. Whatever point he wanted to make, I didn't care much. I was astonished by how he knew ML refused interview: because zeio did not post his post-match interview in this forum and Zhibo TV did not post his post-match interview if any online. This is not specific to ML. If someone commented on CM in Asian Cup based on "she refused interview", I will be annoyed too. I get very confused how people can make reasoning like this and why I bother arguing with them (but many times I just cannot help). Believe it or not, I did not spend any time arguing who is greater, JW or ML in this thread (I did say ML is the best Chinese player ever). Instead I spent time arguing that people should not get double standards in discussions and should provide more evidence to support their opinions. This is what I argued years ago in this forum, and still arguing now...

Trismegistus said:

Well I think it's pretty well known that Rain is a ML fan. But neutrality is not a requirement for being able to argue in good faith (actually neutrality often correlates with being uninformed). Yes, I understand that sometimes fans can seem dogmatic, like maybe their view of ML being the GOAT is there a priori rather than coming about as a result of the evidence. I guess the truth is probably somewhere in the middle for anyone making a claim that a certain player is the GOAT. But I thought all the arguments Rain made here were fair. (Also, one can be a fan of a certain player w/o being motivated to diminish another player; e.g. I think ML and ZJK are both great players, but think one is a bit more great).
Anyway, keep up the debate! It's exciting to be around at a time where some of the greatest players ever are playing, hopefully someday I'll have the time to share my own thoughts on the ML question

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Well you can make any comments you want to. I can make mine as well. What you know is what you know. I don't pretend anyone else knows what you know. 8f you find raineverever fair, that is fine. That is why we discuss these things. Like unsaid I know where the argument will go before I hear it.

Welcome back Rain. I missed your statistical analysis in TTD

I have a different take about GOAT. I think GOAT can not be adjudged by who was more dominant in so many competitions or who lost to how many foreigners. In my opinion we have to position ourselves forward 10-20 years and then look back at the current era. I mean on what basis do we judge Victor Barna now ? So, we need to imagine how will people in the future decide about greatness of current generation ? Of course, by the medal counts at the biggest events (does not matter who played whom) with OG the highest significance and WC the lowest !! Current count :

ZJK : WTTC - 2G+1B , WC - 2G+1S, OG - 1G+1S
ML : WTTC - 3G+3B, WC - 2G+1S+2B, OG-1G

In that sense both are very close but ZJK still has more singles medals in OG which is of highest significance.

rainneverever said:

I realize I am especially picky when I was talking/arguing with some people who keep making things up or taking things for granted. One example is that NL tried to make a point based on his "observation" that ML refused post-match interview in 2019 Asia Cup. Whatever point he wanted to make, I didn't care much. I was astonished by how he knew ML refused interview: because zeio did not post his post-match interview in this forum and Zhibo TV did not post his post-match interview if any online. This is not specific to ML. If someone commented on CM in Asian Cup based on "she refused interview", I will be annoyed too. I get very confused how people can make reasoning like this and why I bother arguing with them (but many times I just cannot help). Believe it or not, I did not spend any time arguing who is greater, JW or ML in this thread (I did say ML is the best Chinese player ever). Instead I spent time arguing that people should not get double standards in discussions and should provide more evidence to support their opinions. This is what I argued years ago in this forum, and still arguing now...

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I showed the source of the confusion and I probably misread what zeio wrote but it is okay. Sorry for lying about Ma Long. It was a honest mistake.

But the idea that one can compare Wang Hao in 2012 to Zhang Jike in 2016... let's just say I find that weird. But it seems some are convinced by it. Makes me wonder if they watched both players at those times.

drunix80 said:

Welcome back Rain. I missed your statistical analysis in TTD

I have a different take about GOAT. I think GOAT can not be adjudged by who was more dominant in so many competitions or who lost to how many foreigners. In my opinion we have to position ourselves forward 10-20 years and then look back at the current era. I mean on what basis do we judge Victor Barna now ? So, we need to imagine how will people in the future decide about greatness of current generation ? Of course, by the medal counts at the biggest events (does not matter who played whom) with OG the highest significance and WC the lowest !! Current count :

ZJK : WTTC - 2G+1B , WC - 2G+1S, OG - 1G+1S
ML : WTTC - 3G+3B, WC - 2G+1S+2B, OG-1G

In that sense both are very close but ZJK still has more singles medals in OG which is of highest significance.

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Interesting. I think the Olympics have been watered down and are mostly ceremonial now. But celebrity status is important I guess.

Jw wttc-2g-2s-2b, wc-1g-2s-1b, og-1g-1s
zjk wttc-2g-1b, wc-2g-1s, og-1g-1s
ml wttc-3g-3b, wc-2g-1s-3b, og-1g

Well as I said, I just used 2012 vs 2016 as a case to show that people use double standards. My opinion is WH was a worthy opponent for ZJK in 12 OG and ZJK was a worthy opponent for ML in 16 OG. But some people especially fans whine too much about the injuries as the reason for losses and simply ignore that the opponents had injuries too, maybe even worse injuries.

BTW, ML's injury was pretty severe before 2019 WTTC and clearly he was not fully recovered in Asian Cup. I don't know if there is anyone who thinks FZD's victory unworthy because of an injured ML. And I really don't see ML fans disgrace FZD's victory here or in Chinese forum. Maybe because it is a relatively small tournament not OG

NextLevel said:

I showed the source of the confusion and I probably misread what zeio wrote but it is okay. Sorry for lying about Ma Long. It was a honest mistake.

But the idea that one can compare Wang Hao in 2012 to Zhang Jike in 2016... let's just say I find that weird. But it seems some are convinced by it. Makes me wonder if they watched both players at those times.

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rainneverever said:

Yes, zeio just said 4 years (2015-2019) lol

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I was waiting for Zeio to confirm ... ha ha .. are you a fortune teller or just pure analysis skill?