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      Matheus Oliveira is offline
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      Is ma long the GOAT ?

      Ma long stopped and now he's back playing like 80% of his game, and still he managed to win the WTTC without dropping 2 sets for anyone. I started to check table tennis in 2014, but of all i see of Waldner and other playes, for me Ma long is the GOAT. What do you guys think

      I also made a compilation for theses last tournments it's called :Return of the dragon - Table Tennis


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      Without a doubt.

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      Is it possible to compare results from different generations? The sport is also much more different compared to before.

      I Can imagine it was more difficult before to practice practice practice and become the best like the chinese do now. I am just speculating now, But i think Reading and playing with spin with the smallest ball Maybe was something that were more difficult to learn through repition and practice. The serve were also more important before. And i also think a really good serve is hard to get with just alot of practice.

      What i mean is that the sport is more bang bang, more like tennis today and less finesse. More today about playing hard and fast.

      I am probly wrong about this since i am pretty Young and barely played with the old balls and old rules. But it would be interesting to hear What other people think.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lula View Post
      Is it possible to compare results from different generations? The sport is also much more different compared to before.

      I Can imagine it was more difficult before to practice practice practice and become the best like the chinese do now. I am just speculating now, But i think Reading and playing with spin with the smallest ball Maybe was something that were more difficult to learn through repition and practice. The serve were also more important before. And i also think a really good serve is hard to get with just alot of practice.

      What i mean is that the sport is more bang bang, more like tennis today and less finesse. More today about playing hard and fast.

      I am probly wrong about this since i am pretty Young and barely played with the old balls and old rules. But it would be interesting to hear What other people think.
      38mm ball, the game was more spinny, serves were a lot more difficult, the game was just as fast maybe faster. The ball bounce was predictable and consistent. The neutralizer was speed glue, it gave you great control over all these conditions, including blocking, for some. The game rallies were longer. At the amateur level serve return was a nightmare. Long pips illegal now were legal back then and really nasty. I say the game was harder to master in the 38 mm ball era.

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      Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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      Click image for larger version. 

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      Last edited by Takkyu_wa_inochi; 05-06-2019 at 07:42 AM.

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    10. Top | #6
      zeio is offline
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      Rallies were shorter in 38mm era. There are studies that confirm that. Players have commented the rallies are longer now and therefore they need to be physically stronger.

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      I'm standing by that it's impossible to say any one player is the GOAT. We'll never seem them face each other and more than anything, the game has changed too much.

      I think Ma Long is the greatest of this 40+ era. It's a short time frame but for me, that's the title he owns.

      Would he still be world class in the 40 and 38? I think so. but would he be the best? I'm not so sure. He'd be in the discussion I'm sure. I think it should be noted that if you think back to the 40mm era, he played 2nd fiddle to ZJK in the biggest moments.

      What's my point? My point is that it's just evidence that the game plays too differently from ball to ball to give any one player that title.
      Last edited by suds79; 05-06-2019 at 07:32 PM.

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      Yes. Can't think of good arguments for anyone else. He has surpassed Waldner.

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      Who has won most important (and big) titles and is hardest to beat (win %)? I think it's obvious that Ma Long is the GOAT. Waldner won important titles against tough opposition and was very entertaining to watch with his variety of skill but he has a losing record against every chinese player for instance. Ma Long is considered the best since 2011, that's over 8 years of being the best. That's unheard of in the modern era (sorry Barna).

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      Ma Long reign spans a 40 celluloid and 40+ with 2 different types of plastic.

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      How about ZJK?

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      Quote Originally Posted by RidTheKid View Post
      Who has won most important (and big) titles and is hardest to beat (win %)? I think it's obvious that Ma Long is the GOAT. Waldner won important titles against tough opposition and was very entertaining to watch with his variety of skill but he has a losing record against every chinese player for instance. Ma Long is considered the best since 2011, that's over 8 years of being the best. That's unheard of in the modern era (sorry Barna).
      If a Swede says so, then there is no doubt. Ma Long is the best player ever. He has the record of pro tours won, the highest win ever in a year, he made 98% of wins. He won 3 wttc in a row, which never happened before. He has won china national games twice in a row, something no one has ever managed to do. Ma Long dominated table tennis from 2012 until today, I think there is little to discuss. If we compare the results, Ma Long is superior to all.
      Last edited by TTLOVE; 05-07-2019 at 07:18 AM.

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    22. Top | #13
      RidTheKid is offline
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      ZJK was the fastest to get a Grand Slam, but he burned out quickly. Longevity with success rate is also a factor to be considered. ZJK even said himself that if he ended up on a deserted island he wanted Ma Long to be there with him, because Ma Long always find a way to solve the problem (to leave the island/win matches).

      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      How about ZJK?

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    24. Top | #14
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by TTLOVE View Post
      If a Swede says so, then there is no doubt. Ma Long is the best player ever. He has the record of pro tours won, the highest win ever in a year, he made 98% of wins. He won 3 wttc in a row, which never happened before. He has won china national games twice in a row, something no one has ever managed to do. Ma Long dominated table tennis from 2012 until today, I think there is little to discuss. If we compare the results, Ma Long is superior to all.
      Too young. Victor Barna(WTTC held annually, 4 in a row, 5 overall in '30, '32, '33, '34, '35) and Zhuang Zedong(WTTC held biannually, 3 in a row in '61, '63, '65).

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    26. Top | #15
      RidTheKid is offline
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      Yes more difficult now to get a streak.

      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      Too young. Victor Barna(WTTC held annually, 4 in a row, 5 overall in '30, '32, '33, '34, '35) and Zhuang Zedong(WTTC held biannually, 3 in a row in '61, '63, '65).

    27. Top | #16
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by RidTheKid View Post
      Who has won most important (and big) titles and is hardest to beat (win %)? I think it's obvious that Ma Long is the GOAT. Waldner won important titles against tough opposition and was very entertaining to watch with his variety of skill but he has a losing record against every chinese player for instance. Ma Long is considered the best since 2011, that's over 8 years of being the best. That's unheard of in the modern era (sorry Barna).
      Too inaccurate. He fares well against those from the same era, especially during his prime. CNT players were afraid of him and expected to lose to him in the singles and team from '91 to '95. Cai Zhenhua actually published an article in the 90s bashing their own players for idolizing Waldner and imitating down to his setup.

      http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p...cf750c#p129571
      The following match statistics are not part of the interview, but added by me. They are taken from “When the feeling decides”, the Waldner career bio written by Jens Fjellke. The statistics below cover Waldner’s career up to 1997. Unfortunately I do not have updated statistics for the rest of this career.

      Waldner’s wins are listed first:
      Chen Longcan 7-10
      Chen Zhibin 3-2
      Guo Yuehua 0-2
      Jiang Jialiang 4-8
      Ma Wenge 19-5
      Teng Yi 23-7
      Wang Tao 5-1
      Li Gunsang 9-3
      Kim Taek Soo 12-11
      Yoo Namkyu 9-2
      Kim Song Hui 11-4
      J-P Gatien 22-11
      Andrzei Grubba 41-20
      Tibor Klampar 8-1
      Zoran Primorac 20-13
      Jörg Rosskopf 22-11
      J-M Saive 26-21
      Last edited by zeio; 05-07-2019 at 08:15 AM.

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    29. Top | #17
      RidTheKid is offline
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      What about the matches against Ma Lin, Wang Liqin, KLH, LGL etc?

      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      Too inaccurate. He fares well against those from the same era, especially during his prime. CNT players were afraid of him and expected to lose to him in the singles and team from '91 to '95. Cai Zhenhua actually published an article in the 90s bashing their own players for idolizing Waldner and imitating down to his setup.

      http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p...cf750c#p129571

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    31. Top | #18
      drunix80 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      How about ZJK?
      ZJK was the fastest one to a grand slam and so far the closest to double grand slam.
      But I dont think he can be considered better than ML because ML has many more weeks as WR #1 , many more ITTF world tour wins and has better head to head record against all other top players of his era.

    32. Top | #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by RidTheKid View Post
      What about the matches against Ma Lin, Wang Liqin, KLH, LGL etc?
      You do realize that Waldner was in his early 30s when those.guys were getting good?
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    34. Top | #20
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      I think we need to either agree on (fat chance of that happening right?) or accept that we're all using different metrics to call the greatest of all time.

      I'm using the eyeball test in skills a player has, titles and who I think would win head to head. Some people are using pure history titles. (which is fine just not how I'd do it)

      I mean I'm reading claims for Victor Barna being in the conversation. Dominance over a long time? Sure. But best to ever play? Come on. In a match it wouldn't be close to no fault of Barna. The skills that have been developed since then and what's needed to compete were not even invented yet.

      This is why I go back to my original point about how you can't compare across eras. It's like we're comparing different sports. The ball & equipment played when Barna played made it a different sport from what it is today. Sure the game has the same name but it's different to be sure.

      That's why I think it's okay to say "X player was the best ever during this era" and leave it at that.

      Forgetting bats & rubbers for a moment, in just ball alone it's even too different from 38 to 40 to 40+ as each era has had players who have benefited from a certain ball and players who have been hurt by them.
      Last edited by suds79; 05-07-2019 at 01:00 PM.

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