Is ma long the GOAT ?

rainneverever · May 14, 2019

RidTheKid said:
Not the GOAT, ZJK is perhaps the most talented chinese player ever, though.

Let zeio answer. It is not an irrelevant question and not difficult to answer no matter he is ZJK fan or not.

LGL said ML is more talented than WH and ZJK back in 2012. You don't have to agree with LGL because there is no absolute measurement for talent. And "Fans are misinformed".

NextLevel · May 14, 2019

NextLevel said:
A lot of GOAT discussions come down to silly quibbles. The question is whether some people want to accept that there are reasons to disagree or whether some people believe that they are so right that only an idiot can disagree.

Here we go again...

RidTheKid · May 14, 2019

I think ZJK had a more fluid touch and played with perhaps a little more variety and created more angles but that is certainly just my subjective opinion. LGL knows what he's talking about.

rainneverever said:
Let zeio answer. It is not an irrelevant question and not difficult to answer no matter he is ZJK fan or not.

LGL said ML is more talented than WH and ZJK back in 2012. You don't have to agree with LGL because there is no absolute measurement for talent. And "Fans are misinformed".

UpSideDownCarl · May 14, 2019

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

ttmonster · May 14, 2019

UpSideDownCarl said:
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

RidTheKid · May 14, 2019

As a man with a few years under his belt and a fast internet connection I think you know the answer to that

UpSideDownCarl said:
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

tropical · May 14, 2019

I find it weird that some still consider there is no GOAT in table tennis. Don't you know that to determine the greatest athlete of all time (GAOAT not just table tennis GOAT) the ESPN combined voting and scientific approaches to come up with a name? It is sad that we table tennis players don't consider there is a GOAT in our sport while other sports all have their GOAT's!

The process to determine GAOAT is relatively simple. First they found the winner in each sport by popular vote. The short-list for each category was created by ESPN, but the winner determined by public voting. There seemed to be a US bias (a majority of visitors to the ESPN website would be from the US). Out of the 16 athletes chosen, there were 12 Americans (the rest: two Brazilians, one Swiss and Canadian). Also, only sports popular in the US were looked at, there are no table tennis, badminton, handball, AFL or water polo players for examples.

The winners of each category were:

Basketball - Michael Jordan
Golf - Tiger Woods
Olympics - Michael Phelps
Combat - Anderson Silva
Boxing - Muhammad Ali
Endurance - Mark Allen
Multisport - Bo Jackson
Tennis - Roger Federer
Baseball - Willie Mays
Game Changers - Jackie Robinson
Soccer - Pele
Action - Tony Hawk
Track & Field - Carl Lewis
Ice Hockey - Wayne Gretzky
Football - Jim Brown
Autosports - Dale Earnhardt Sr.

Then comes round 1: (I am doing copycat work here as I am lazy to write and folks don't want to go to the original source to read)

The winners of each match up was based on a unique metric devised by the ESPN sport science team, to determine which players will advance in the bracket. One-on-one match ups continue until a single winner is left, the Greatest Athlete of All Time!

Michael Jordan v Tiger Woods;

Michael Phelps v Anderson Silva

Muhammad Ali v Mark Allen

Bo Jackson v Roger Federer

Willie Mays v Jackie Robinson

Pele v Tony Hawk

Carl Lewis v Wayne Gretzky

Jim Brown v Dale Earnhardt Sr.

Then quarter final round:

Michael Jordan v Michael Phelps
Bo Jackson v Muhammad Ali
Jackie Robinson v Pele
Wayne Gretzky v Jim Brown

Then semifinal
[h=3]Bo Jackson v Michael Jordan
[/h][h=3]Jim Brown v Jackie Robinson [/h]and final

[h=3]Bo Jackson v Jackie Robinson [/h]with public voting to choose Bo Jackson to win by 79.5%.

So come on folks. Voting is used in these sports why not table tennis? Are ours more special or much inferior?

NextLevel · May 14, 2019

tropical said:
I find it weird that some still consider there is no GOAT in table tennis. Don't you know that to determine the greatest athlete of all time (GAOAT not just table tennis GOAT) the ESPN combined voting and scientific approaches to come up with a name? It is sad that we table tennis players don't consider there is a GOAT in our sport while other sports all have their GOAT's!

The process to determine GAOAT is relatively simple. First they found the winner in each sport by popular vote. The short-list for each category was created by ESPN, but the winner determined by public voting. There seemed to be a US bias (a majority of visitors to the ESPN website would be from the US). Out of the 16 athletes chosen, there were 12 Americans (the rest: two Brazilians, one Swiss and Canadian). Also, only sports popular in the US were looked at, there are no table tennis, badminton, handball, AFL or water polo players for examples.

The winners of each category were:

Basketball - Michael Jordan

Golf - Tiger Woods

Olympics - Michael Phelps

Combat - Anderson Silva

Boxing - Muhammad Ali

Endurance - Mark Allen

Multisport - Bo Jackson

Tennis - Roger Federer

Baseball - Willie Mays

Game Changers - Jackie Robinson

Soccer - Pele

Action - Tony Hawk

Track & Field - Carl Lewis

Ice Hockey - Wayne Gretzky

Football - Jim Brown

Autosports - Dale Earnhardt Sr.

Then comes round 1: (I am doing copycat work here as I am lazy to write and folks don't want to go to the original source to read)

The winners of each match up was based on a unique metric devised by the ESPN sport science team, to determine which players will advance in the bracket. One-on-one match ups continue until a single winner is left, the Greatest Athlete of All Time!

Michael Jordan v Tiger Woods;

Michael Phelps v Anderson Silva

Muhammad Ali v Mark Allen

Bo Jackson v Roger Federer

Willie Mays v Jackie Robinson

Pele v Tony Hawk

Carl Lewis v Wayne Gretzky

Jim Brown v Dale Earnhardt Sr.

Then quarter final round:

Michael Jordan v Michael Phelps
Bo Jackson v Muhammad Ali
Jackie Robinson v Pele
Wayne Gretzky v Jim Brown

Then semifinal
[h=3]Bo Jackson v Michael Jordan
[/h][h=3]Jim Brown v Jackie Robinson [/h]and final

[h=3]Bo Jackson v Jackie Robinson [/h]with public voting to choose Bo Jackson to win by 79.5%.

So come on folks. Voting is used in these sports why not table tennis? Are ours more special or much inferior?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Voting depends on who the voters are. We aren't trying to solve world hunger, we are having a fun debate. Of course you can vote, but that vote shows you the problem when Bo Jackson can win over Michael Jordan that voting depends on who votes.

NextLevel · May 14, 2019

RidTheKid said:
Not the GOAT, ZJK is perhaps the most talented chinese player ever, though.

ZJK had a good backhand when it was hard to have a good backhand. Ma Long got a good backhand when the plastic ball made it easier to have a good backhand.

RidTheKid · May 14, 2019

What is your source for this statement? It seems you just make up stuff out of thin air. Ma Longs bh became better through hours of practicing it more, fact. It's also a known fact that changing from T05 on bh to H3 made a huge difference for him.

NextLevel said:
ZJK had a good backhand when it was hard to have a good backhand. Ma Long got a good backhand when the plastic ball made it easier to have a good backhand.

NextLevel · May 14, 2019

RidTheKid said:
What is your source for this statement? It seems you just make up stuff out of thin air. Ma Longs bh became better through hours of practicing it more, fact. It's also a known fact that changing from T05 on bh to H3 made a huge difference for him.

Which occurred after the plastic ball was instated.

passifid · May 14, 2019

Zjk for me is rules out of

passifid · May 14, 2019

Zjk for me is rules out of goat as he was dominant questionably for a very short time. A goat not only dominates， has beautiful technique and tactics but also dominates.
If you were not around from say 2010 to 2014 he is not even in the picture for best at the time.
The grand slam is over rated. It is just three big tournaments, don't get me wrong the goat probably should have a grand slam but zjk having one doesn't make him above WH or WLQ to me. He just won some specific tournies.

Beautiful game though and him and FZD got me back into shakehand

RidTheKid · May 14, 2019

What is your source for the above statement? If he only wanted a more suiting bh rubber for the plastic ball he would've stuck with T05. What he gained with H3 was more control which is his entire game. Ma Long simply got better because he practiced more than anyone else and he has the best TT brain in the world. Pretty clear to anyone who gets the sport. The guy is away on hiatus for 6 months injured, 2 months before the WTTC he can't even run. He enters the contest and wipes the table with everyone he plays, both seasoned previous gold winners, CNT team mates, the best player in north and south america and the best player in Europe atm and gets the gold. He mentors Wang Chuqin to doubles gold. The experts all agree that Ma Long is the GOAT, but people here surely know better. It's like talking about TT with Trump

NextLevel said:
Which occurred after the plastic ball was instated.

NextLevel · May 14, 2019

RidTheKid said:
What is your source for the above statement? If he only wanted a more suiting bh rubber for the plastic ball he would've stuck with T05. What he gained with H3 was more control which is his entire game. Ma Long simply got better because he practiced more than anyone else and he has the best TT brain in the world. Pretty clear to anyone who gets the sport. The guy is away on hiatus for 6 months injured, 2 months before the WTTC he can't even run. He enters the contest and wipes the table with everyone he plays, both seasoned previous gold winners, CNT team mates, the best player in north and south america and the best player in Europe atm and gets the gold. He mentors Wang Chuqin to doubles gold. The experts all agree that Ma Long is the GOAT, but people here surely know better. It's like talking about TT with Trump

The timing for it is clear. Most of these changes occurred in late 2014/early 2015. I also switched to tacky rubber on the backhand indepe gently of Ma Long when using plastic so I remember. And back then, players like Par Gerrell were saying that their backhands became better with the plastic ball.

Just putting a few things together so that people can understand how the plastic ball change and spin reduction impacted some players severely.

No ome.doubts he is a plastic ball.master. I believe he is the GOAT but his plastic ball era is what makes it so great to most people and his underachiever status in the cell ball.era is what I think aome.doubt. You obviously don't think plastic vs cell.matters.

passifid · May 14, 2019

NextLevel said:
The timing for it is clear. Most of these changes occurred in late 2014/early 2015. I also switched to tacky rubber on the backhand indepe gently of Ma Long when using plastic so I remember. And back then, players like Par Gerrell were saying that their backhands became better with the plastic ball.

Just putting a few things together so that people can understand how the plastic ball change and spin reduction impacted some players severely.

No ome.doubts he is a plastic ball.master. I believe he is the GOAT but his plastic ball era is what makes it so great to most people and his underachiever status in the cell ball.era is what I think aome.doubt. You obviously don't think plastic vs cell.matters.

I think the issue is outside of major tournies he dominated cell era too. when WLQ retires ML was 32-12 against him.
Then in the plastic era he dominated like no other apart from barna. Not only has he got top technique only surpassed mechanically by FZD he has a MUCH better mental game. He is closer than any other player so far to be a double grand slam winner.
Romantasize the cell era as much as you like (i played in this too) but it doesn't stop the plastic era existing and ML was a dominant force in 2012 (see previous LGL quote) He also apart from WH who only has 1 more win than ML in H2H has got a winning H2H with every player he ever played throughout his career.
I agree if he was like WH or WLQ and underachived in his whole career in terms of grand slam etc fine. BUT
he got the acolades still with plastic. And while you might argue the competition is lesser see my previous statment about the fact outside of major tournies he still performed exceptionally well outside of diamond events.
for me the arguements are between
ML
JOW
Barna
thats pretty much it. No one else comes close to having both the trophies and accolades of those 3. I personally would love FZD to take it in future but hey ho.

tropical · May 14, 2019

[h=2]The Unique ESPN Metric[/h] ESPN Sport Science determined the Greatest Athlete of All Time (GOAT) using a unique metric that factored in attributes such as strength, power, speed, finesse, quickness, reaction time, endurance, durability, an athlete's resume, clutch performances, dominance, versatility, measurements, and the overall difficulty of their sport. Each athlete will be scored in each category, using a unique ranking metric that allows them to compare an athlete's ability to his peers and also to athletes from other fields.

This is what we may want to do with our GOAT.

tropical · May 14, 2019

It is easy to know "what is the sound of single hand clap".

What hears "plop" then swallows immediately ?

tropical · May 14, 2019

NextLevel said:
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Voting depends on who the voters are. We aren't trying to solve world hunger, we are having a fun debate. Of course you can vote, but that vote shows you the problem when Bo Jackson can win over Michael Jordan that voting depends on who votes.

What hears "plop" then immediately swallows?

Voting as suggested by ESPN can't satisfy all, including the "What hears "plop" then immediately swallows". We all know it is not perfect but it is still the best to settle debates.

tt chats · May 15, 2019

Matheus Oliveira said:
Ma long stopped and now he's back playing like 80% of his game, and still he managed to win the WTTC without dropping 2 sets for anyone. I started to check table tennis in 2014, but of all i see of Waldner and other playes, for me Ma long is the GOAT. What do you guys think

I also made a compilation for theses last tournments it's called :Return of the dragon - Table Tennis

In recent years, Ma Long is unparalleled undoubtedly. But if you'd like to understand Waldner and make a comparison, you better look further back to the 90s.

Personally, I'll say Waldner. With the bigger balls today, tt becomes much less skillful.

Is ma long the GOAT ?

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