Is ma long the GOAT ?

AKB5 said:

Btw, Injuries are a part of sports. Staying healthy is a part of it, training, nutrition, etc, and of course, there is some pure luck with injuries, but people can only judge what has occurred, not what would happen without injuries.

Btw, I do love ZJK, and he was a more exciting watch for me than Ma Long, but the question is who is better? That to me is Ma Long without debate.

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No doubt. If not, Monica Seles may be the greatest lady tennis player of all times.

More seriously, the back injuries that left ZJK looking like a shell of himself were significant. It doesn't require accepting that Ma Long is the GOAT to realize that. There were other things but there is no point getting into it. The point is not that Ma Long is not the greatest, the point is that he didn't win any major titles when both him and his best opponents were in their primes. Not his fault at all, but again, the losses to Wang Hao stick out like a sore thumb. If he had won one of those matches instead of choking to the point that Wang Hao thought he was injured, the conversation would be moot.

I actually give ML credit for 3 bronzes followed by 3 gold. But beating WH, who ZJK had absolutely no problem beating, would have simplified the conversation. But you can't take away from his ridiculously strong record at just about every event. I find the WTTC to be an overrated part of the conversation on evaluating ML and his tour and continental and national record very underrated. Moreover, I think amongst his peers, he gained the most with the plastic ball.

NextLevel said:

So let's get this straight - journalists and statisticians have little respect and sportsmanship an I supposedly do because I can say that in my view that the players right now as not as great as prior players? Not sure why you need to personalize this issue but it is your prerogative. The only way this can go is back and forth insults and no point going there. You know nothing about my level of respect for modern players or my degree of sportsmanship. I am actually a person with a public personality across multiple forums. I sometimes wonder whether people like you would make such comments if your name and face were visible for all to see.
And no one will confuse Mattias Falck with Wang Hao. Spin it however you choose. They wouldn't even confuse Mattias Falck with Timo Boll. We have analytics for these kinds of things.

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I'm not making it a personal issue. I'm only asking you to be more respectful of the athletes when making your GOAT argument. I don't really care who your GOAT tt player is.
I don't think I've said anything on this forum that I wouldn't say to you in person. Was any of my comments disrespectful to you or the athletes I was discussing? If so, please point it out. I don't mind apologizing when I'm wrong or when I've offended someone.
By your logic, sports statisticians and journalists don't have to be respectful to the athletes. Ok, let me take your thought process one step further. Are you a professional sports statistician or a sports journalist? If you are neither, then show some respect, and also acknowledge that you probably don't know enough to decide the gold content of any particular WTTC.

This thread is becoming more and more interesting.
(1) The current table tennis world seems "weak" not because other players are not strong, but because of ML's dominance. It's just simple.
(2) WTTC and OG are knock-out games. Whoever wins in the end wins the title. ZJK won his 5 big titles by beating WH (4) and ML. ML won his 6 titles by beating ZJK, FZD (2), FB, Falck, and Timo Boll. SO WHAT? Falck and FB may not be the second best player in the world but they MADE it to the final! The argument that ML's 2015 and 2019 WTTC has least "gold content" because he beat players like FB and Falck (not players like WH or ZJK) in the final is really showing no respect to the players at all. Yeah it's true ML did not beat any defending champion - it's difficult to beat himself I guess.
(3) Same goes for ZJK. I don't think his big title record has less "gold content" because he did not meet ML in WTTC. ML did not make it to the final to meet ZJK in 2011 and 2013. Lack of luck? Technical issues? Mental issues? Maybe, maybe not. But again it's not ZJK's fault that he did not meet ML in 2011 and 2013. I truly respect ZJK's achievement as well. But it's indisputable that his achievement is not as complete as ML's.

Again, people have different definitions of GOAT so IMO it's meaningless to get everyone agree that someone is THE goat. But to list some unjustified reasons to disgrace someone's achievement is really annoying.

All players have losses.

Yes, Wang Hao beat him and ZJK handled WH well, but who is your GOAT?

NextLevel said:

Spoken like a true ML fangirl.

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Well, there's a similar GOAT thread on Tieba. There is a poor guy or gal by the handle "I mean what I said" who basically got ganged up by the ML fanboys or fangirls. To give you an idea of his stance...

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6119434132

战绩第一八成靠同行衬托，实力第一得益于乒乓球技术的发展。
老瓦65的对手：格鲁巴58，蔡振华61，阿佩伊伦61，林德61，江嘉良64，滕毅64，陈龙灿65，佩尔森66，王涛67，马文革68，刘南奎68，盖亭69，赛弗69，普利莫拉茨69，罗斯科夫69，金泽洙70，丁松71，施拉格72，格林卡72，孔令辉75，刘国梁76，萨姆索诺夫76，王励勤78，马琳80，波尔81，柳承敏82。
马龙88的对手：萨姆索诺夫76，吴尚垠77，王励勤78，马琳80，朱世赫80，庄智渊81，波尔81，柳承敏82，王皓83，陈玘83，郝帅83，张继科88，奥恰洛夫88，水谷隼89，许昕89，李尚洙90，方博92，法尔克92，郑荣植92，林高远95，梁靖崑96，樊振东97，张本智和03。
无论质还是量，老瓦的对手都远胜于马龙的对手，而且马龙的对手绝大多数都不在当打之年。
...
说一不二好: 回复 雯蒂0805 :马龙31了伤病这么多身体下降这么多你看不到吗，许昕，奥恰，水谷都大幅下滑，张继科都快退役了，当打之年个毛线马龙的对手一大半是比他大5岁以上的，只有张继科许昕奥恰水谷同龄，84到87，90到96都是什么菜鸡，97的小胖和03的张本太嫩了，跟马龙不是一个时代的
...
说一不二好: 回复 樱桃家D依米 :量当然说的是世界一流水准的高手，现在的质低并不是因为被马龙碾压，而是国乒4大威胁里面，最大的张本才16岁不到，波尔已经38了，奥恰水谷跟马龙一样都过30了。乒乓球90到96期间的都是废材
...
说一不二好: 回复 贴吧用户_5ED7CyN :压制什么，03之前的都老成什么样了，03之后才多嫩，84到02期间除了过30的张继科许昕奥恰水谷和一个还小的樊振东没一个像样的
...
说一不二好: 回复 小二上酒 :我什么时候说了老瓦比马龙强了盖亭，佩尔森等人比李尚洙郑荣植等人强好几个档次
...
说一不二好: 回复 小二上酒 :老瓦挑的是年轻他十几岁的刘国梁孔令辉，马龙打的法尔克是什么鬼
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说一不二好: 回复 至尊策大爷 :许昕这水准都吊打除马龙张继科之外所有84到96的人，难道许昕是大满贯球王级实力许昕也就跟罗斯科夫，金泽洙，波尔差不多，然而罗斯科夫，金泽洙在同时代勉强前十，波尔勉强前五而已，许昕却稳居第三，吊打之后，可见乒乓球衰落得多么严重
...
说一不二好: 回复 尤里安_拉姆 :我倒是觉得波尔比罗斯科夫，金泽洙，许昕这些人强半档，波尔的7个欧锦赛虽然含金量不高，但是换成那3位肯定拿不到5个

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80% of his No. 1 record is accentuated by peers, and his No.1 strength is benefited from the development of table tennis techniques.
Waldner 65's opponents: Gruba 58, Cai Zhenhua 61, Appelgren 61, Linde 61, Jiang Jialiang 64, Teng Yi 64, Chen Longcan 65, Persson 66, Wang Tao 67, Ma Wenge 68, Yoo Namkyu 68, Gatien 69, Saive 69, Primorac 69, Rosskopf 69, Kim Taeksoo 70, Ding Song 71, Schlager 72, Kreanga 72, Kong Linghui 75, Liu Guoliang 76, Samsonov 76, Wang Liqin 78 , Ma Lin 80, Boll 81, Ryu Seungmin 82.
Ma Long 88's opponents: Samsonov 76, Oh Sangeun 77, Wang Liqin 78, Ma Lin 80, Joo Sehyuk 80, Chuang Chih-Yuan 81, Boll 81, Ryu Seungmin 82, Wang Hao 83, Chen Qi 83, Hao Shuai 83, Zhang Jike 88, Ovtcharov 88, Mizutani 89, Xu Xin 89, Lee Sangsu 90, Fang Bo 92, Falck 92, Jeoung Youngsik 92, Lin Gaoyuan 95, Liang Jingkun 96, Fan Zhendong 97, Harimoto 03.
Whether by quality or quantity, Waldner's opponents were far better than Ma Long's opponents, and most of Ma Long's opponents were not in their prime.
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I mean what I said: Reply Wendi 0805: Ma Long is 31 already...has so many injuries...his body has declined so much...don't you see...Xu Xin, Ovtcharov, Mizutani have fallen sharply, Zhang Jike is on the brink of retiring...more than half of the in-prime-my-ass Ma Long's opponents are at least 5 years older than him. Only Zhang Jike, Xu Xin, Ovtcharov, Mizutani are the same age, 84 to 87, 90 to 96 are all small potatoes, 97 Chubby and 03 Harimoto are too tender, and not of the same era as Ma Long
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I mean what I said: Reply to the cherry family D Yimi: The quantity of course means the world's top players, it's not because the current low quality ones are getting steamrolled by Ma Long, but among the 4 major threats for CNT, Harimoto, the greatest one, is not even 16 years old...Boll is already 38...Ovtcharov and Mizutani are over 30 like Ma Long. Those from 90 to 96 are waste material
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I mean what I said: Reply to the post user _5ED7CyN: Suppress my butt, those before 03 are old af, only those after 03 are tender...other than Zhang Jike who's over 30, Xu Xin, Ovtcharov, Mizutani and a still young Fan Zhendong, those between 84 and 02 don't cut it
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I mean what I said: Reply to Waiter serve: When did I say Waldner is stronger than Ma Long...Gatien, Persson and others were better than the likes of Lee Sangsu, Jeoung Youngsik et al.
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I mean what I said: Reply to Waiter serve: Waldner faced the decades younger Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui...Ma Long playing Falck is like apples and oranges.
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I mean what I said: Reply to the grandfather of the grandfather: Even Xu Xin at this level can cream all those from 84 to 96 except Ma Long and Zhang Jike...Does that mean Xu Xin is grand slam holder level...Xu Xin is at most comparable to Rosskopf, Kim Taeksoo, Boll, but Rosskopf, Kim Taeksoo were barely in the top 10 in their generation, and Boll was barely in the top 5. Yet Xu Xin is stable in 3rd place...After the cream, it's obvious how severe table tennis has deteriorated.
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I mean what I said: Reply to Yurien _ Lahm: Somehow I think Boll is half a gear stronger than Rosskopf, Kim Taeksoo, Xu Xin and the likes...Boll’s 7 European Championships might not be that high in gold content, but if it were those 3, they definitely couldn't get 5

ouchouch said:

This thread is becoming more and more interesting.
(1) The current table tennis world seems "weak" not because other players are not strong, but because of ML's dominance. It's just simple.
(2) WTTC and OG are knock-out games. Whoever wins in the end wins the title. ZJK won his 5 big titles by beating WH (4) and ML. ML won his 6 titles by beating ZJK, FZD (2), FB, Falck, and Timo Boll. SO WHAT? Falck and FB may not be the second best player in the world but they MADE it to the final! The argument that ML's 2015 and 2019 WTTC has least "gold content" because he beat players like FB and Falck (not players like WH or ZJK) in the final is really showing no respect to the players at all. Yeah it's true ML did not beat any defending champion - it's difficult to beat himself I guess.
(3) Same goes for ZJK. I don't think his big title record has less "gold content" because he did not meet ML in WTTC. ML did not make it to the final to meet ZJK in 2011 and 2013. Lack of luck? Technical issues? Mental issues? Maybe, maybe not. But again it's not ZJK's fault that he did not meet ML in 2011 and 2013. I truly respect ZJK's achievement as well. But it's indisputable that his achievement is not as complete as ML's.

Again, people have different definitions of GOAT so IMO it's meaningless to get everyone agree that someone is THE goat. But to list some unjustified reasons to disgrace someone's achievement is really annoying.

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Not true. You can have many dominant player if the same.players are consistently getting to the top spots. If you blame the new ITTF seeding system, you would be far more credible.

usualsuspect said:

I'm not making it a personal issue. I'm only asking you to be more respectful of the athletes when making your GOAT argument. I don't really care who your GOAT tt player is.
I don't think I've said anything on this forum that I wouldn't say to you in person. Was any of my comments disrespectful to you or the athletes I was discussing? If so, please point it out. I don't mind apologizing when I'm wrong or when I've offended someone.
By your logic, sports statisticians and journalists don't have to be respectful to the athletes. Ok, let me take your thought process one step further. Are you a professional sports statistician or a sports journalist? If you are neither, then show some respect, and also acknowledge that you probably don't know enough to decide the gold content of any particular WTTC.

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So when a professional does it, it is respectful but when an amateur does it, it is disrespectful? It is called Punditry and everyone does it. Like I said, the only direction one can head with your argument is degenerative insults. I can assert that Mattias Falck is not as great TT player as Timo Boll. It is not a disrespect to either.

No she mentioned what the CNT coaches thinks and that's even more valuable (sorry rainneverever ).

NextLevel said:

Spoken like a true ML fangirl.

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And Ma Long winning WTTC 2019 I actually consider his biggest feat up until now. A few months back he could hardly run because of his injured knee. He was not in top shape physically and still won.

This is misleading.
There are so many table tennis fans on Tieba. Are you calling all of them "ML fanboy" or "ML fangirl" just because they speak for ML? Then at least 80% people on Tieba will be ML fanboys or fangirls. Actually many of them are just tt fans who respect ML's achievements.
Also, what's wrong with ML fanboy or ML fangirl? We reply to each other based on the merit of our opinions, not on our fanclub, right? You are just using the stigmatized identities of "fanboy" or "fangirl" to bolster your point.

zeio said:

Well, there's a similar GOAT thread on Tieba. There is a poor guy or gal by the handle "I mean what I said" who basically got ganged up by the ML fanboys or fangirls. To give you an idea of his stance...

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6119434132

80% of his No. 1 record is accentuated by peers, and his No.1 strength is benefited from the development of table tennis techniques.
Waldner 65's opponents: Gruba 58, Cai Zhenhua 61, Appelgren 61, Linde 61, Jiang Jialiang 64, Teng Yi 64, Chen Longcan 65, Persson 66, Wang Tao 67, Ma Wenge 68, Yoo Namkyu 68, Gatien 69, Saive 69, Primorac 69, Rosskopf 69, Kim Taeksoo 70, Ding Song 71, Schlager 72, Kreanga 72, Kong Linghui 75, Liu Guoliang 76, Samsonov 76, Wang Liqin 78 , Ma Lin 80, Boll 81, Ryu Seungmin 82.
Ma Long 88's opponents: Samsonov 76, Oh Sangeun 77, Wang Liqin 78, Ma Lin 80, Joo Sehyuk 80, Chuang Chih-Yuan 81, Boll 81, Ryu Seungmin 82, Wang Hao 83, Chen Qi 83, Hao Shuai 83, Zhang Jike 88, Ovtcharov 88, Mizutani 89, Xu Xin 89, Lee Sangsu 90, Fang Bo 92, Falck 92, Jeoung Youngsik 92, Lin Gaoyuan 95, Liang Jingkun 96, Fan Zhendong 97, Harimoto 03.
Whether by quality or quantity, Waldner's opponents were far better than Ma Long's opponents, and most of Ma Long's opponents were not in their prime.
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I mean what I said: Reply Wendi 0805: Ma Long is 31 already...has so many injuries...his body has declined so much...don't you see...Xu Xin, Ovtcharov, Mizutani have fallen sharply, Zhang Jike is on the brink of retiring...more than half of the in-prime-my-ass Ma Long's opponents are at least 5 years older than him. Only Zhang Jike, Xu Xin, Ovtcharov, Mizutani are the same age, 84 to 87, 90 to 96 are all small potatoes, 97 Chubby and 03 Harimoto are too tender, and not of the same era as Ma Long
...
I mean what I said: Reply to the cherry family D Yimi: The quantity of course means the world's top players, it's not because the current low quality ones are getting steamrolled by Ma Long, but among the 4 major threats for CNT, Harimoto, the greatest one, is not even 16 years old...Boll is already 38...Ovtcharov and Mizutani are over 30 like Ma Long. Those from 90 to 96 are waste material
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I mean what I said: Reply to the post user _5ED7CyN: Suppress my butt, those before 03 are old af, only those after 03 are tender...other than Zhang Jike who's over 30, Xu Xin, Ovtcharov, Mizutani and a still young Fan Zhendong, those between 84 and 02 don't cut it
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I mean what I said: Reply to Waiter serve: When did I say Waldner is stronger than Ma Long...Gatien, Persson and others were better than the likes of Lee Sangsu, Jeoung Youngsik et al.
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I mean what I said: Reply to Waiter serve: Waldner faced the decades younger Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui...Ma Long playing Falck is like apples and oranges.
...
I mean what I said: Reply to the grandfather of the grandfather: Even Xu Xin at this level can cream all those from 84 to 96 except Ma Long and Zhang Jike...Does that mean Xu Xin is grand slam holder level...Xu Xin is at most comparable to Rosskopf, Kim Taeksoo, Boll, but Rosskopf, Kim Taeksoo were barely in the top 10 in their generation, and Boll was barely in the top 5. Yet Xu Xin is stable in 3rd place...After the cream, it's obvious how severe table tennis has deteriorated.
...
I mean what I said: Reply to Yurien _ Lahm: Somehow I think Boll is half a gear stronger than Rosskopf, Kim Taeksoo, Xu Xin and the likes...Boll’s 7 European Championships might not be that high in gold content, but if it were those 3, they definitely couldn't get 5

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Is "Among his peers, he gained the most with the plastic ball" an evidence against ML's greatness? I don't think so. His dominance in the plastic ball era is the OUTCOME of his efforts and talents. He struggled with the ball a lot but successfully overcame it: He lost to ZJK in 2014 WC, the first big tournament that used the plastic ball. Then he lost to FZD twice in 2014 China Championships. As rain said, experts and coaches expressed concerns about ML adjusting to the new ball because he had a better winning record against ZJK and FZD before the new ball was used. So experts and coaches saw the new ball as going against ML.
What happened afterwards? He improved his skills, changed the BH rubber, and tried his best to adjust to the ball. He took WTTC 2015 and all big titles in 2015.
He did not take advantage of the plastic ball without putting efforts. Instead he put a great deal of effort to adapt to the new ball. He made it. To me that's evidence showing his greatness.

Then the ball changed into ABS in 2017. Again he had difficulty adjusting. He lost to JEONG Sangeun in Asian Championships (the first loss to a non-CNT player since Sep 2012). He adjusted and took WTTC 2017.

He was badly injured in late 2018. Even in Feb, LGL was not sure whether he would be able to attend WTTC. He overcame and took WTTC 2019.

ouchouch said:

This is misleading.
There are so many table tennis fans on Tieba. Are you calling all of them "ML fanboy" or "ML fangirl" just because they speak for ML? Then at least 80% people on Tieba will be ML fanboys or fangirls. Actually many of them are just tt fans who respect ML's achievements.
Also, what's wrong with ML fanboy or ML fangirl? We reply to each other based on the merit of our opinions, not on our fanclub, right? You are just using the stigmatized identities of "fanboy" or "fangirl" to bolster your point.

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NextLevel said:

So when a professional does it, it is respectful but when an amateur does it, it is disrespectful? It is called Punditry and everyone does it. Like I said, the only direction one can head with your argument is degenerative insults. I can assert that Mattias Falck is not as great TT player as Timo Boll. It is not a disrespect to either.

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Thanks for twisting my words. I was following your thought process. If you don't agree with your original comments, please don't blame it on me. Anyway, I'm done with discussing this with you. I really don't care about anything you have to say one way or the other.

RidTheKid said:

No she mentioned what the CNT coaches thinks and that's even more valuable (sorry rainneverever ).

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The CNT coaches would make the exact same comments about Zhang Jike with respect to how spin affected their gsmes. No, she was putting her own spin on it. ZJK was more reliant on spin than Ma Long.

It's true that ZJK has a more spin oriented game, but it could be seen as a weakness to not be able to adapt to changes. Timo Boll has seen every ball and equipment change there is (almost) and is still a top performer.

NextLevel said:

The CNT coaches would make the exact same comments about Zhang Jike with respect to how spin affected their gsmes. No, she was putting her own spin on it. ZJK was more reliant on spin than Ma Long.

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RidTheKid said:

It's true that ZJK has a more spin oriented game, but it could be seen as a weakness to not be able to adapt to changes. Timo Boll has seen every ball and equipment change there is (almost) and is still a top performer.

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No doubt and this is where injuries come into play as well. Only a true fangirl would act like ZJK didn't have serious injuries, regardless of your view on whether that should be seriously considered in ZJK's goat candidacy.

The point is simple. If you look at the players at the top of the ratings lists in prior years and their consistency in producing top results, Ma Long did not dominate his peers at majors until those guys were past their primes. This is not to say he isn't a GOAT, but it is a negative on his candidacy. I believe he is the GOAT, but I find the inability of some to even accept that Ma Long is not Jesus Christ a but annoying. It reminds of me what happens when you tell Federer fans that Federer played his best tennis when Djokovic and Nadal were coming up and his most dominant peer was Roddick. For me, I think Djokovic performed better against tougher competition and if Fan plays say Harimoto and Liang Jingkun and beats the repeatedly in many events, I could say the same. For me the best arguments for Ma Long which show he was a choker of sorts and still a great player were his tour, continental and national results which were just stellar. No one comes close to doing the things he did. I just wished he had delivered when he and ZJK were in their prime.

Woah, it's been almost 2 years since...
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...-the-greatest-table-tennis-player-ever#989928

Not another thread...

Where were these threads for ZJK when he overtook Waldner in the 3 majors in 2014.

As stated in the other thread, Ma Long is the most decorated PERIOD

Great? Yes. Greatest of All Time? Not quite. Why, you ask?

So long as people don't/can't eliminate personal bias in their less than objective views, there is absolutely no point in debating over this shit. As I stated in the other thread, "what do you think?" does not mean "what do you want?"

I am still not convinced ZJK is "the greatest of all time". He may be arguably "the greatest Chinese player of all time". However, no matter how many titles he wins, he is still a product of the Chinese TT system/machine, not comparable to JO.

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I am really happy for him. I think he is better than ZJ K, and if he could get another world championship or Olympic champ, he will be alone by himself.

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The last few years I've wondered what ZJK is thinking. He's not too old to make another push for Tokyo 2020 but he must start getting back in shape asap if he has any such aspirations. Instead we see him doing tv shows and god knows what else that isn't TT related. This is not indicative of someone who wants to compete on the biggest TT stages. To me he's done mentally.

NextLevel said:

No doubt and this is where injuries come into play as well. Only a true fangirl would act like ZJK didn't have serious injuries, regardless of your view on whether that should be seriously considered in ZJK's goat candidacy.

The point is simple. If you look at the players at the top of the ratings lists in prior years and their consistency in producing top results, Ma Long did not dominate his peers at majors until those guys were past their primes. This is not to say he isn't a GOAT, but it is a negative on his candidacy. I believe he is the GOAT, but I find the inability of some to even accept that Ma Long is not Jesus Christ a but annoying. It reminds of me what happens when you tell Federer fans that Federer played his best tennis when Djokovic and Nadal were coming up and his most dominant peer was Roddick. For me, I think Djokovic performed better against tougher competition and if Fan plays say Harimoto and Liang Jingkun and beats the repeatedly in many events, I could say the same. For me the best arguments for Ma Long which show he was a choker of sorts and still a great player were his tour, continental and national results which were just stellar. No one comes close to doing the things he did. I just wished he had delivered when he and ZJK were in their prime.

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RidTheKid said:

The last few years I've wondered what ZJK is thinking. He's not too old to make another push for Tokyo 2020 but he must start getting back in shape asap if he has any such aspirations. Instead we see him doing tv shows and god knows what else that isn't TT related. This is not indicative of someone who wants to compete on the biggest TT stages. To me he's done mentally.

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I can imagine he is somewhat grumpy because of the new ball. That he feels he can not play the same way, and have got injuries from it. That if he can not play as good as before because of the change of material, maybe he feels it is better to stop playing?

I know that they forbid Liu Gouliangs rubber when he played, changed the ball and changed the service rule and i think he felt that his game became so much worse by this so it was no reason to keep on playing if he could not play on the same level.

ZJK style: power and spin
ML style: control and spin
Challenge: Bigger ball, less spin. ML's physical power is less. (If you don't believe this, don't believe other words from CNT.)
Then it is straight forward. ML was affected by bigger ball because of the reduced spin, and was even more affected than ZJK and others because of his weaker physical strength.
Solutions: be physical stronger by working out. And it worked.

ZJK has injuries. I didn't deny in this thread or elsewhere. Years ago I posted in other threads that every one on CNT had severe injuries but they didn't blame the injuries for their losses or decline. It is funny to say a healthy ML beat an injured ZJK because there is no healthy ML around and ZJK didn't even need cortisone injection before 2016 OG and ML needed.

If you are injured but want to continue to play, you go rehabilitation and try to come back. Improve your games by standing closer to the table, by focusing on placements and paces, by improving serves, and etc. If losses make you disappointed or playing causes more injuries, hang up racket and have fun in other field. No need to whine about the rule change or the injuries like us fans do.

BTW, according to Li Xiaodong, ZJK has been retired for a while.