Is ma long the GOAT ?

I agree that you need to adapt to stay on top. And it is proably motivation that is lacking. But i can still understand them. If they have put down thousand hours on training something and you Do it good and that is a big part why you win games i also would become a little down if they change something so i almost need to relearn it all again or that is affect my game so much that i am No longer winning it must feel a bit hard to motivate you to almost start over or atleast change something alot.

I Do not agree about their styles. In my opinion zjk were more spin, control and also pace, while ml play with more power and control.

NextLevel said:

No doubt. If not, Monica Seles may be the greatest lady tennis player of all times.

More seriously, the back injuries that left ZJK looking like a shell of himself were significant. It doesn't require accepting that Ma Long is the GOAT to realize that. There were other things but there is no point getting into it. The point is not that Ma Long is not the greatest, the point is that he didn't win any major titles when both him and his best opponents were in their primes. Not his fault at all, but again, the losses to Wang Hao stick out like a sore thumb. If he had won one of those matches instead of choking to the point that Wang Hao thought he was injured, the conversation would be moot.

I actually give ML credit for 3 bronzes followed by 3 gold. But beating WH, who ZJK had absolutely no problem beating, would have simplified the conversation. But you can't take away from his ridiculously strong record at just about every event. I find the WTTC to be an overrated part of the conversation on evaluating ML and his tour and continental and national record very underrated. Moreover, I think amongst his peers, he gained the most with the plastic ball.

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I bolded a couple of sentence/sentence fragments in NL's post. The WTTC is a pressure packed crucible. The fact that Ma Long has collected 3 bronze and 3 gold over a 10 year period shows his incredible strength over the field over a very long period of time. This is in addition to his dominance over almost all other top players head to head such as:
20-10 over FZD
30-14 over Ma Lin
32-12 over Wang Liqin
41-11 over XX
31-10 over ZJK
5-1 over Liang Jingkun
7-2 over LGY
19-2 over Chen Qi
10-2 over Fang Bo
20-9 over Hao Shaui
16-5 over Timo Boll
17-0 over Dima
20-3 over Joo Saehyuk
16-0 over Mizutani
7-3 over Ryu Seungmin
7-0 over Michael Maze
9-2 over Oh Sang Eun
10-0 over Gao Ning
9-0 over Werner Schlager
17-2 over Chuang Chih Yuan
9-5 over Vladi
3-0 over Kreanga
and on and on...

The only one close to ML in head to head is Wang Hao. ML has 30-27 record over him. For those that are saying ML has competed against a weak field, the above record since 2005 says otherwise.

For the 2009 WTTC, WH was seeded #1. ML was seeded #3. For 2011 WTTC, WH was seeded #1, ML was seeded #5. For 2013 WTTC, WH was seeded #3, ML was seeded #2. For 2 of the 3 WTTCs where ML faced WH in the semis, he was the underdog as per the tournament seeding and the seeding held. 2013 was the only time ML was the favorite per seedings. And yet, he is labeled as a "choker" for these 3 losses by some. ML got a bronze in these WTTC. Its not like he lost in round 1 or round 2 to some unranked or low ranked player.

very impressive for MA Long. Where did you get all those stats ?

This is for the guys who were saying, based on looks, that if ML were to play Waldner and both were in their prime, ML would have an easy time.

I do personally think, at this point ML can be considered the best ever. Part of why is how dominant he has been over the rest of the competition and how long that has been the case. I don't think it has to do with what I think would happen if ML and Waldner met and both were at the top of their games. I am not sure what would happen. I do think anyone who thinks they know what would happen is fooling themself. We cannot know because it cannot happen. And I am totally okay with it being that way.

But for you guys who were presenting that Waldner would be a walk in the park for ML, you should know that Waldner played ML 2 times. In 2009 and in 2011. When both matches happened ML was WR #1. When the 2011 match happened most people I knew considered ML the best player in the world. Now, when they played, Waldner was old, fat, out of shape, had trouble moving and pretty clearly had a bad back. I am also confident he was not doing the kind of training he had done when he was in his prime; he couldn't because of his back. But he still gave ML a harder time than most top pros from anywhere. He did not lose 4-0. All of the games were closer than ML usually sees. He definitely made ML nervous. What he did was all tactical. Because it was clear he could not move well enough to play how he once had played. And by the end of each match, ML had figured out how to handle what Waldner was successfully doing to him in the first few games.

But it was interesting to see an old, injured guy with a fairly big beer belly, who also was not doing real, serious training, give ML a harder time than most pros at the time were able to give him.

Again, I do think, at this point ML is the best of all time. And my way of seeing it has to do with the fact that he has just been so much better than everyone else for so long, so consistently, that I don't think that needs to be questioned.

But NextLevel's points about how having trouble in the big matches against one specific player who he was beating regularly in normal pro tour finals by 2011 (Wang Hao), I think NextLevel is making an excellent and nuanced point. Especially since, he also thinks ML is the best ever.

So, it may be worth trying to figure out what he is saying there. And it is nice that it seems ML does not have the same kind of issues with nerves that he had back in 2011 or 2013.

I also think that, I saw a few comments about how ML developed and adapted, that focused on how ML improved his BH phenomenally. I agree with that. But I think, one of his keys to getting over the top while FZD was rising was how he changed his approach to responding to when an opponent opened with a BH flip (banana, whatever you want to call it). At a certain point he seemed to just let opponents open with those and used them as a third ball to absolutely crush. It was, in my opinion an impressive adaptation to something that had given ML a lot of trouble at before 2015.

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

very impressive for MA Long. Where did you get all those stats ?

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Apparently taken from the Wiki for ML. These stats are likely pulled from Ratingscentral that include CTTSL that hardly any players care.

Timo has also been injury plagued and came back. It's about hunger and character, and certainly priorities but it comes back to hunger. How much do you want it?

NextLevel said:

No doubt and this is where injuries come into play as well. Only a true fangirl would act like ZJK didn't have serious injuries, regardless of your view on whether that should be seriously considered in ZJK's goat candidacy.

The point is simple. If you look at the players at the top of the ratings lists in prior years and their consistency in producing top results, Ma Long did not dominate his peers at majors until those guys were past their primes. This is not to say he isn't a GOAT, but it is a negative on his candidacy. I believe he is the GOAT, but I find the inability of some to even accept that Ma Long is not Jesus Christ a but annoying. It reminds of me what happens when you tell Federer fans that Federer played his best tennis when Djokovic and Nadal were coming up and his most dominant peer was Roddick. For me, I think Djokovic performed better against tougher competition and if Fan plays say Harimoto and Liang Jingkun and beats the repeatedly in many events, I could say the same. For me the best arguments for Ma Long which show he was a choker of sorts and still a great player were his tour, continental and national results which were just stellar. No one comes close to doing the things he did. I just wished he had delivered when he and ZJK were in their prime.

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I think many of Ma Longs current opponents are playing more like robots compared to Waldner.

With smaller ball and hidden serve i think Ma Long Will have a hard time.

I think many here Maybe focus to much on the offensive flashy strokes that Ma Long has. So they think waldner would be beaten easily because his strokes are not as flashy. They are missing the little game, placement and variation. The stuff that waldner were good at in my opinion. Maybe the the level of the guys in the forum is not high enough to realize that the game is not won by the flashy strokes like a hard forehand loop. At a certain level you learn that the serve and return is the most important. Stuff like placement and variation is also missed by guys that have not played so long.

Ma Long has the most deceptive serves today according to his peers. Have you seen his serve returns, I think he'd do okay in any era Ma Long is a complete player, without any obvious weaknesses. Did you see the clip where Ma Long returned Liu Guoliangs hidden serves? Serve and return is 50% of the game and Ma Long is probably number 1 in the world in this department.

Lula said:

I think many of Ma Longs current opponents are playing more like robots compared to Waldner.

With smaller ball and hidden serve i think Ma Long Will have a hard time.

I think many here Maybe focus to much on the offensive flashy strokes that Ma Long has. So they think waldner would be beaten easily because his strokes are not as flashy. They are missing the little game, placement and variation. The stuff that waldner were good at in my opinion. Maybe the the level of the guys in the forum is not high enough to realize that the game is not won by the flashy strokes like a hard forehand loop. At a certain level you learn that the serve and return is the most important. Stuff like placement and variation is also missed by guys that have not played so long.

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RidTheKid said:

Timo has also been injury plagued and came back. It's about hunger and character, and certainly priorities but it comes back to hunger. How much do you want it?

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Good thread indeed . Had time reading your posts ridthekid untill I got here in this post . Having injury in a top level is dangerous specially in china . When a player have got injury and stop playing for a long peroid for rehabilitation , coming back to game is so difficult with many many young talents with strong motivations and hard trainings out there . Zhang jike had this condition . He hadnt played for a long time and started his rehabilitation . Now about timo boll . He didnt have this situation . His place was safe in national team and who the hell can put his shoes in his place and german team certainly would give him time and wished him to comeback when ever he wants , because they didnt have a better player than timo boll ( and dima) in comparison with china . Even with these crucial moments Zhang jike managed to comeback to table tennis scene ,, played almost 4 tours in a row ( if you remember Some ML fan wanted to spread negative talks and disappoint every one about his comeback ) with his results getting better and better that he got to the japan open final and face with harimoto , A beast harimoto who knocked ML out easily . ZJK lost this game very closely which was a victory than losing after a very long absence . So he cameback once and he had hunger . He just wanted to play for his fans . He had won all the titles he wanted but again played even with sign of injury in all his games . And about the question in this thread its better to say that Now with these active players ma long is the greatest ( in this era ) .but he's not the greatest of all time . We had great players in Table tennis history in their era . Waldner was the best in his era . Zhang jike was the best in his era . Now tell me how can we say some one is the greatest of all time ???!!!!!

Hi Ping fun, I would say the best approach is to look at the titles and accolades that the player collected during his reign/ era. I think these statistics have already been posted on this thread and clearly Ma long has come out on top. Give the man his due! This debate has been there since 2011 even before Ma long won any majors! A good number of people including in this forum had already picked him as the best! Kudos to their prediction! The anti-Ma long fans would then say he had never won anything in terms of major! Which was a valid point then. I think the guy has now risen to win them all ( The majors and all internal chinese tournaments). Something that the rest that are being compared to him have not won!
This debate might continue for a long time but even those who dispute know that when all factors are put into consideration Ma long is so far the Undisputed GOAT up to this time of our existence. In terms of the future, no one knows but all the rising stars like Harimoto, Fan zhedong and Liang Jinkun have the opportunity to surpass him if they can.

ping fun said:

Good thread indeed . Had time reading your posts ridthekid untill I got here in this post . Having injury in a top level is dangerous specially in china . When a player have got injury and stop playing for a long peroid for rehabilitation , coming back to game is so difficult with many many young talents with strong motivations and hard trainings out there . Zhang jike had this condition . He hadnt played for a long time and started his rehabilitation . Now about timo boll . He didnt have this situation . His place was safe in national team and who the hell can put his shoes in his place and german team certainly would give him time and wished him to comeback when ever he wants , because they didnt have a better player than timo boll ( and dima) in comparison with china . Even with these crucial moments Zhang jike managed to comeback to table tennis scene ,, played almost 4 tours in a row ( if you remember Some ML fan wanted to spread negative talks and disappoint every one about his comeback ) with his results getting better and better that he got to the japan open final and face with harimoto , A beast harimoto who knocked ML out easily . ZJK lost this game very closely which was a victory than losing after a very long absence . So he cameback once and he had hunger . He just wanted to play for his fans . He had won all the titles he wanted but again played even with sign of injury in all his games . And about the question in this thread its better to say that Now with these active players ma long is G.O.A.T .but he's not the greatest . We had great players in Table tennis history in their era . Waldner was the best in his era . Zhang jike was the best in his era . Now tell me how can we say some one is the greatest of all time ???!!!!!

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Musa said:

Hi Ping fun, I would say the best approach is to look at the titles and accolades that the player collected during his reign/ era. I think these statistics have already been posted on this thread and clearly Ma long has come out on top. Give the man his due! This debate has been there since 2011 even before Ma long won any majors! A good number of people including in this forum had already picked him as the best! Kudos to their prediction! The anti-Ma long fans would then say he had never won anything in terms of major! Which was a valid point then. I think the guy has now risen to win them all ( The majors and all internal chinese tournaments). Something that the rest that are being compared to him have not won!
This debate might continue for a long time but even those who dispute know that when all factors are put into consideration Ma long is the Undisputed GOAT at this time of our existence. In terms of the future, no one knows but all the rising stars like Harimoto, Fan zhedong and Liang Jinkun have the opportunity to surpass him if they can.

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Dont care about antis in this forum just some chinese members are . I have seen many anti zjk and ml in this forum which were chinese again .. but who cares really . Yes I wrote in my last post . Ma long is the greatest in this time not all time . And thats because we had many many great players and legends even before ml and zjk .

I'm not anti any player. I try to be objective by reading stats and by watching the actual matches. I still hold Ma Longs win in WTTC 2019 as his biggest accomplishment. I never thought he'd be able to pull it off, but there seems there's very little this man can't do ZJK hasn't won enough big titles to be considered the GOAT. He'd need at least another individual WTTC and more tour wins to get to the same plateau.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2005-05-03/16411540441.shtml

　　网友：施拉格先生，2003年，你淘汰王励勤和孔令辉的两场比赛，给中国人留下非常深的印象，尤其在落后的时候，也从来没有放弃过，到现在为止，你记忆最深刻的比赛是哪一场，是当时2003年的比赛吗？

　　施拉格 ： 我想没有什么能够比战胜世界上最强的对手而夺得世界锦标赛的冠军更能让我记忆深刻的事了，如果这个不是，那还会是什么呢。

　　网友：现在很多人都说中国乒乓球太强大了，对于整个乒乓球的发展是不利的，特别是会让外国的选手觉得可能打起来没有什么意思。两位作为欧洲这么顶级的选手，也认同这种观点吗，中国乒乓球的强大对世界整个乒乓球的发展来说是一个坏事？

　　施拉格 ： 我觉得中国队是非常强大，但是在过去的两年里最重要的比赛里，也并不是说中国队把所有的冠军都揽入怀中，比如在世界锦标赛上，还有去年的奥运会决赛，中国队实际上都没有拿到男单的冠军。另外，乒乓球这项运动本身是一项非常复杂的运动，实际上对于一个运动员来说有很多方法可以让他能够成为冠军，尽管他的技术、战术不一定是一流的，但是他仍然可以成为冠军。因此，至少在男单这方面，我认为这个说法我不会同意，但是针对女子乒乓球来说，我认为存在这种现象。当然这不是中国运动员的问题，也不是他们的错误，应该来说是欧洲特别是欧洲女子选手她们需要更严肃地对待她们的训练和比赛。另外，作为欧洲的乒乓球协会来说，也需要做更多的努力，让这项运动有更多的人能够积极而严肃地去参与。

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Netizen: Mr. Schlager, in 2003, you eliminated Wang Liqin and Kong Linghui, those 2 matches left a deep impression on the Chinese. Especially when you were behind, you never gave up. Until now, what match is the most memorable, is it the one in 2003?

Schlager: I think there is nothing better than winning the world championship by beating the world's strongest opponents. If not this, then what?

Netizen: Many people now say that Chinese table tennis is too strong, which is not good for the development of table tennis as a whole. In particular, it will make foreign players feel that it is meaningless to compete. As the 2 top players in Europe, do you agree with this? The strength of Chinese table tennis is a bad thing for the development of table tennis?

Schlager: I think the Chinese team is very strong, but in the most important tournaments of the past two years, the Chinese team has not taken all the titles, such as the World Championships and the Olympic finals last year. The Chinese team actually did not win the men's singles. In addition, table tennis itself is a very complicated sport. In fact, there are many ways for an athlete to become a champion. Although his skills and tactics might not necessarily be first-class, he can still become a champion. Therefore, at least in terms of men's singles, I don't think I will agree with this statement, but for women's table tennis, I think this phenomenon exists. Of course, this is not a problem for Chinese athletes, nor is it their fault. It should be said that European players, especially European women, need to take their training and competition more seriously. In addition, for table tennis associations in Europe, more efforts are needed to enable more people to participate in this sport actively and seriously.

http://en.people.cn/200504/25/eng20050425_182640.html
What Chinese say about legendary Waldner

Following is what Chinese coaches and players say about table tennis legend Jan-Ove Waldner of Sweden.

Cai Zhenhua, China head coach:

We had learnt a lot from Waldner's entry to the men's singles semifinals in the Athens Olympics.

He shows the world that age isn't a problem for table tennis players and that's why I encourage Chinese veterans Kong Linghui and Wang Nan to carry on. Table tennis is a technical sport, not a sport that needs body contact. Waldner hadn't received systematic training and had become a second-rate player before the Athens Games but he changed his style and added a sting to his play when big moments came. He is able to make the best of his skills and tactics when it counts. He givesus a good lesson on how to put it all together for a better result.

Jiang Jialiang, former world champion

I have watched Waldner very closely since I became a TV commentator in the 1988 Olympics. His games are pearls in my most cherished memory. He is more like an orchestra conductor than an athlete and he bemuses his rivals and amuses spectators.

I didn't expect much from him in the 2000 Olympics but he made it to the final. Four years later in Athens, I believed he could pull off some surprises as a veteran good at controlling his rivals and spectators. He out-maneuvered young players who might be techinically better but not as wise. I felt sorry for his loss to South Korean Ryu Seung Min. He told me in an interview that he would rather lose to South Koreans than Chinese because he wanted to prove Chinese were not unbeatable.

Wang Tao, former Olympic doubles champion:

In the 1992 Olympics, which was my first Games and where I paired up with Lu Lin to win the doubles gold medal, Waldner was at the top and deserved the singles gold. Twelve years later he made it to the championship final in a feat really seen in the sport.

In competition, Waldner can easily dwarf his rivals by exerting pressure. He has played 10 world championships and might not value the event as much as before. But the Olympics is still important for him. He told me he would win the Olympic gold when we met once before the Games. He almost did it.

He had single-handedly confronted six generations of Chinese players. Wherever he is, he is a brand of table tennis. People give him applause no matter he wins or loses. He is a legend, an example, a symbol.

Lu Lin, former Olympic doubles champion, China coach:

World top 20 players are very close and the winner must have something that others don't have.

Waldner plays a wise game and he is concentrated whenever he is taking initiative or forced into defense. His stroke isn't heavy but it surely makes you uncomfortable. In his 1992 Olympic duel with hard-hitting Jean-Philippe Gatien, Waldner dominated in every aspect and beat the Frenchman in straight sets.

Waldner is born for table tennis. He is an ordinary man off the table tennis court, no girlfriend, unable to drive, busy with competing and making money, yet leaving his finances to his elder brother. Except table tennis, he is good at almost nothing.

Liu Guoliang, former Olympic and world champion, Chinese men's team head coach:

Waldner came to Athens to prove himself. He had won everything but something still motivated him. He wanted to show he wasn't old and he was still able to work wonder. He wanted due respect from the table tennis world.

Waldner looked well prepared in the Athens Games after training with Austrian and Italian players as well as European stars Vladimir Samsonov and Zoran Primorac for over a month.

Kong Linghui had exactly the same feeling. He had won everything but wanted to prove his value in the Chinese team with a doubles gold medal.

Athletes need spiritual backbone to carry on.

For a long time Europeans had been afraid of Chinese players but Waldner proved Chinese were not invincible. After beating Kong Linghui and Wang Hao in the doubles, a more confident Waldner routed Ma Lin in the singles and then ousted Timo Boll of Germany. Kong, Ma and Boll underestimated Waldner's potential and they all paid for their mistakes.

Boll was afraid of Ma Lin and didn't want to meet him. After Waldner shut out Ma, Boll thought his time had come because he beat Waldner in his international debut and had a better encounter record. A 3-1[4-1] loss was a heavy blow to the German.

Ryu Seung Min is young and tough-minded and his play is much like Chinese youngster Chen Ji's[Chen Qi's?].

Waldner tried to lure the South Korean into the same mistakes by Boll but Ryu stuck to his game and triumphed 3-1[4-1]. Chinese men's Olympic setbacks started with Walnder/Persson's win over Kong/Wang.

To some extent, Waldner ruined our Olympic plan.

Chinese young players should learn Waldner's spirit.

Kong Linghui, former world and Olympic champion:

I sat with Jorgen Persson, Chen Weixing and Johnny Huang while Waldner defeated Timo Boll in the Olympic quarterfinals. According to Persson, Waldner had told his teammate and doubles partner that he would beat Boll. Waldner's confidence was built on his battle experience.

Few would bet on a 39-year-old before the Olympics, or expected him to beat Ma Lin and Boll.

He hadn't beaten Ma Lin for six years and Boll for three years. His games against Ma and Boll are table tennis classics. Conservative tactics and hesitation at clutch moments cost two youngsters dearly.

Twice finalist and once semifinalist in singles in five Olympic Games may be a difficult record for his successors to beat. He may not have the best techniques in the world but he does possess world-class mentality and unmatchable experience.

He can easily see through his opponents and baffle them with his ever-changing styles. I was deeply moved when I saw he wore a lumbar pad. He had received operations and had a steel tube planted in his injured leg. Many spectators rooted for Waldner in his bronze medal match against Wang Liqin. He is a table tennis legend.

Ma Lin, Olympic doubles champion:

I lost to Waldner in the Olympics and I felt bad about it. I have lots of respect for Waldner.

In the past several years, he had never beaten me and it seemed I was up and up and he was on a free fall. I didn't expect him to play so well in Athens.

Wang Liqin, former world and Olympic doubles champion:

I had a tough game against Waldner in the Austrian Open early 2004, outlasting him 4-3. With a wrong impression that he was aging, I underestimated him. I survived that game because I played a little better at the end. Waldner's Olympic victims made the same mistake as I did in the Austrian Open. When I vied for the Olympic bronze, I saw him as a top player instead of an old player. Waldner is an example. He still plays at 39. If I can make it to the Olympic semifinals at 39, I will be very happy.

...I always prepared very well for the big tournaments...

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RidTheKid said:

I'm not anti any player. I try to be objective by reading stats and by watching the actual matches. I still hold Ma Longs win in WTTC 2019 as his biggest accomplishment. I never thought he'd be able to pull it off, but there seems there's very little this man can't do ZJK hasn't won enough big titles to be considered the GOAT. He'd need at least another individual WTTC and more tour wins to get to the same plateau.

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My reply to your post was about hunger and injury of timo boll and zjk . I didnt call you anti . Did I ? Also I didnt say ZJK is GOAT because we dont have G.O.A.T. in TT . But we can say the greatest of a specific time . Cause its impossible . Even before Zjk had more titles than any one no one called him G.O.A.T so its meaningless .

The term GOAT will always surface because it's intriguing to discuss and because people are of different opinions how they estimate and value something as GOAT. For me personally I hold winning above anything else, I'm that pragmatic. In facing adversity wins are worth even more (Ma Long 2019). Yes, quality of opposition matters and counts, but the winner can't choose his opponents and it's not factual to say that Ma Long hasn't had golden opposition during his successful era. Like I said before, since he keeps on winning he can't possibly beat golden winners. TT is about actual wins, period. Not what "could've, should've, would've" been or happened. Every detail of his game is meticulously practiced, even more so as he's getting older, the margins are getting smaller but his knowledge is getting bigger.

ping fun said:

My reply to your post was about hunger and injury of timo boll and zjk . I didnt call you anti . Did I ? Also I didnt say ZJK is GOAT because we dont have G.O.A.T. in TT . But we can say the greatest of a specific time . Cause its impossible . Even before Zjk had more titles than any one no one called him G.O.A.T so its meaningless .

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No, it's not that he keeps on winning and/or "could've, should've, would've". The fact is he didn't beat any former world champs to claim the title. That's why I quoted Waldner and Schlger saying how much it means to claim the world champ title from former holders. WTTC is not overrated as NextLevel puts it. It's the most prestigious table tennis only event. Like Schlager puts it, if not this, then what?

Maybe players could overtake and defeat winners more often back then because winners weren't dominant enough to hold the title? Reverse view of it I agree that WTTC is the most prestigious, and OG is second on the list.

zeio said:

No, it's not that he keeps on winning and/or "could've, should've, would've". The fact is he didn't beat any former world champs to claim the title. That's why I quoted Waldner and Schlger saying how much it means to claim the world champ title from former holders. WTTC is not overrated as NextLevel puts it. It's the most prestigious table tennis only event. Like Schlager puts it, if not this, then what?

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What's the gold content of JO Waldner's WTTC titles lol
I didn't find zeio listed which former WTTC winner he beat.

This is where people don't understand. The very reason not one player was dominant back then was because all those players had what it took to claim major titles. It's called the European golden generation in China for this reason.