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    1. Top | #1
      MOG is offline
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      Why are Stiff blades better for short pimples?

      I have been using short pimples for 5 months solidly, but experimented with them several times before hear and there (In 5 months I have probably played 200 matches and practised 10 hours a week at least).

      Been using them on a stiga infinity, an OSP V+ or a donic waldner 2016. They are decent on these blades and these blades feel fairly good for my fh.

      Yesterday in frustration I tried them on a Samsanov Force Pro Blue at a tournament with no practice after a bad morning. The short pimples on bh immediately felt more controlled. Blocking was more stable. And directional control and angles were much better. I could loop to some extent with them (not really what they are for). But my touch shots and return of serve was much more predictable than on my OSP.

      The blade feels softer on contact but stiffer and more predictable. It does however make the fh a bit harder to loop with.

      Force Pro is a 6.3mm 7 ply all wood blade.

      Why do stiffer blades feel so much more controllable with short pimples and more predictable?
      Can anyone explain this to me?
      Last edited by MOG; 05-13-2019 at 12:40 PM.

    2. Top | #2
      Lula is offline
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      I can imagine that they are more hard so they are less bouncy, the arc is lower and the ball leaves the racket faster. This suits a playing style with short pips.

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    4. Top | #3
      Loopadoop is offline
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      I have short pips on a soft wood stiff blade, feels almost like inverted for looping.
      Last edited by Loopadoop; 05-13-2019 at 12:59 PM.

    5. Top | #4
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      I don't agree they are better, I think a lot depends on the playing level and style and stroke timing. If you can generate opportunities to smash and do so with a fast blade and you have the consistency and arm speed, then stiffer blades may work for you. But the issue is when you are not so fast and doesn't get those opportunities easily and need to play with a tad more spin/arc and less risk.

      That said, if you have actually played with blue edition of force Pro, it is not that stiff for a 7 ply and is actually a looping blade. This is one of the reasons hearing EJs force their biases onto equipment can be annoying. I don't think it is 6.3mm either but i won't argue. When i was using Blue edition, Filip Szymanski too was as well.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 05-13-2019 at 06:09 PM.
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    7. Top | #5
      lasta is online now
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      Stiffer blades are more direct, more linear, less springy, and give more unfiltered/straightforward feedback, thus more controllable.

      But I agree with NextLevel, the Blue Edition is actually a very flexible blade. Try the Black and you might like it even more.

    8. Top | #6
      FruitLoop is offline
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      Depends on your overall style. If you are a smasher, puncher, blocker close to the table then stiffer blades can be better with short pimples. Different if you are a Matthias Falck.

    9. Top | #7
      MOG is offline
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      well everyone says i play too much of an inverted shot with them anyway (sp), but it seems to go on fairly regularly.

      force pro blue definitely feels stiffer than osp v+, maybe it is just softer?? feels more predictable to me anyway. i was instantly more consistent with it, even without a practice

      its a lot better for driving and smashing on fh too and feels harder to loop with, but i agree its still decent for looping.


      handle is comfortable which is important for me
      Last edited by MOG; 05-14-2019 at 09:29 AM.

    10. Top | #8
      DragonOwen is offline
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      Best blade for SP that I played is Innerforce Layer ALC, I think it's kinda stiff (kinda all ALC blades does)... For me SP is mostly for speedy flat flicks and flat shots, and with stiff blades it's easier for me to make them... Also Innerforce technology makes easier to make short pushes, when you not using ALC layer under two wood layers, in the same time, when needed, you can use ALC layer and make very speedy and powerful flicks and shots... Overall I think too stiff blade will also might be bad for playing SP, cause it will have less "feel", and IMHO the "feel" is very important when playing any pimples... So, IMO Innerforce Layer ALC is "just right" for SP, also knew a few people in my city that playing SP on this blade, and I probably would still playing now with this blade if I still was playing SP, but I switched to using both inverted rubberd a couple of years ago, so since then changed a few blades already, cause with inverted rubbers I like more "soft" "feel" which ZLC gives compared to ALC...

    11. Top | #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I don't agree they are better, I think a lot depends on the playing level and style and stroke timing. If you can generate opportunities to smash and do so with a fast blade and you have the consistency and arm speed, then stiffer blades may work for you. But the issue is when you are not so fast and doesn't get those opportunities easily and need to play with a tad more spin/arc and less risk.

      That said, if you have actually played with blue edition of force Pro, it is not that stiff for a 7 ply and is actually a looping blade. This is one of the reasons hearing EJs force their biases onto equipment can be annoying. I don't think it is 6.3mm either but i won't argue. When i was using Blue edition, Filip Szymanski too was as well.
      Still, would you agree that the force pro blue is stiffer than the 5 ply all wood blades the OP compares it to (stiga infinity, an OSP V+ or a donic waldner 2016)?

      My memory might be off, but I seem to recall the Avalox P700 being especially popular among offensive short pips players back in the days. Not sure, but AFAIK, the P700 is on the more flexy side for classic 7 ply wood blades. (Perhaps closer to the force pro blue than the force pro black?)

      Might there be something to the thought that classic, flexy 5 ply wood blades specifically can be harder to control with offensive short pip play than somewhat stiffer blades like the P700, FPBlue, or some not too fast 5 + 2 (wood + carbon) blades? (The thought being that so long as the blade isn't too fast for the player, more stiffness might make the blade a bit more linear and predictable across the range of offensive SP shots? One especially relevant issue seems to be: compared to looping inverted rubbers, short pips favor much more open racket angles on attacking shots; in turn, more open racket angles (afaik) tend to lead to more blade flex than more closed angles (the racket being most flexible with the face perpendicular to the head motion, and least flexible with the face parallel to the head motion. Not sure.))
      Last edited by OhWell; 05-14-2019 at 01:56 PM.

    12. Top | #10
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by OhWell View Post
      stiga infinity, an OSP V+ or a donic waldner 2016

      Still, would you agree that the force pro blue is stiffer than the 5 ply all wood blades the OP compares it to (stiga infinity, an OSP V+ or a donic waldner 2016)?
      If you really care about the answer to the question, get some frequency measurements. But I know from personal experience and the blades I play well with (and trust me I have extensive experience with the Blue edition) that it is a low frequency vibrating blade.

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    14. Top | #11
      OhWell is offline
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      @nextlevel Oops, added a bunch to my post while you replied.

      I trust your take on the FP blue.

      What I was clumsily trying to describe in the part I added to my initial post is the Ec/Ep ratio from TT Gear Lab. I'm not sure, but I could see how an ec/ep within the .9-1.1 range (common for 7 ply wood blades) would be especially valuable for more predictable shots with the kind of racket angles SP require on offensive shots (compared to the more closed racket angles looping inverted rubbers favor.)

    15. Top | #12
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      I remember, several years ago, someone posted how, if he played with one setup for a few weeks, it didn't matter what the change was, switching to something different always felt better and always made him happy.

      Some people can really learn a lot from switching up and trying a lot of different setups. And then, some people forget everything and each time they switch, all they remember is the most recent comparison.
      Spin Everything.

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    17. Top | #13
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      I switched to SP bh a year ago. Like everything else ej, at the margins it doesn't matter. If a blade is slightly stiffer you won't get a tiny bit more control, it will just be lost in the boise and randomness of tt play.

      But with inverted I was using a sweden classic, extremely flexible 5-ply blade. Then I tried a wsc, also very flexible but not quite as extreme. It was very hard to play SP on those blades. Changing to a P700 thick, stiff 7-ply wood made a noticeable, immediate difference. I still made plenty of errors. But the number of WTF-just-happened balls went down almost to zero.

      Since then I changed to an acoustic carbon, the outer carbon. It can't be exactly as stiff as a P700, but it makes no difference to the sp. I like it better for my inverted fh, and also because Mima Ito.

      So to answer the OP, I don't know why it's better, it just is. Generations of tt wisdom about blades for short pimples isn't wrong. It's ridiculous to think that it could be.

    18. Top | #14
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      Changing to a P700 thick, stiff 7-ply wood made a noticeable, immediate difference. I still made plenty of errors. But the number of WTF-just-happened balls went down almost to zero.

      Since then I changed to an acoustic carbon, the outer carbon. It can't be exactly as stiff as a P700, but it makes no difference to the sp. I like it better for my inverted fh, and also because Mima Ito.
      Now you have given MOG two blades he has to try that he has been eying with envy.

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    20. Top | #15
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      I switched to SP bh a year ago. Like everything else ej, at the margins it doesn't matter. If a blade is slightly stiffer you won't get a tiny bit more control, it will just be lost in the boise and randomness of tt play.

      But with inverted I was using a sweden classic, extremely flexible 5-ply blade. Then I tried a wsc, also very flexible but not quite as extreme. It was very hard to play SP on those blades. Changing to a P700 thick, stiff 7-ply wood made a noticeable, immediate difference. I still made plenty of errors. But the number of WTF-just-happened balls went down almost to zero.

      Since then I changed to an acoustic carbon, the outer carbon. It can't be exactly as stiff as a P700, but it makes no difference to the sp. I like it better for my inverted fh, and also because Mima Ito.

      So to answer the OP, I don't know why it's better, it just is. Generations of tt wisdom about blades for short pimples isn't wrong. It's ridiculous to think that it could be.
      I think you will find it hard to differentiate between the flex of an OSP virtuoso and the flex of Force Pro Blue Edition. In fact since you aren't an EJ, you may not realize that the Acoustic Carbon just ain't that stiff. A really stiff blade would be Sardius or almost any T5000 blade. Since you said TT wisdom is just correct, maybe you were just not wise enough to try those. Why?

      In the end, everything about equipment starts with what you are trying to do. Rules of thumb in equipment are always dependent on unsaid things that are often never measured. After all are flexy blades really better for looping when the most popular looping blades at the world class level are arylate carbon blades? Why not wooden blades?
      Last edited by NextLevel; 05-14-2019 at 06:59 PM.

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    22. Top | #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I think you will find it hard to differentiate between the flex of an OSP virtuoso and the flex of Force Pro Blue Edition. In fact since you aren't an EJ, you may not realize that the Acoustic Carbon just ain't that stiff. A really stiff blade would be Sardius or almost any T5000 blade. Since you said TT wisdom is just correct, maybe you were just not wise enough to try those. Why?

      In the end, everything about equipment starts with what you are trying to do. Rules of thumb in equipment are always dependent on unsaid things that are often never measured. After all are flexy blades really better for looping when the most popular looping blades at the world class level are arylate carbon blades? Why not wooden blades?
      I know you understand diminishing returns, so I'm not sure why you posted as if you don't. My blade is stiff enough for sp. So was the p700. The sweden classic wasn't. And neither was the OP's first blade.

      If blades with some degree of flex aren't better for looping, why do pros use viscaria or tb alc instead of a T5000 blade? T5000 is faster, all else equal. Are they stupid about equipment?

    23. Top | #17
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      I know you understand diminishing returns, so I'm not sure why you posted as if you don't. My blade is stiff enough for sp. So was the p700. The sweden classic wasn't. And neither was the OP's first blade.

      If blades with some degree of flex aren't better for looping, why do pros use viscaria or tb alc instead of a T5000 blade? T5000 is faster, all else equal. Are they stupid about equipment?
      I am sure you understand context as well. Stiffer blades are not inherently better for pips, which is my point. It all depends on what you are trying to do and your technique. I can tell you that the OP is a serial EJ who looks for any excuse to find new equipment better than what he previously used. Your efforts to aid him on this regard are acknowledged, but your input is only going to help people continue to say silly things like "stiff blades work better with pips" rather than encouraging people to find a blade with appropriate speed and stiffness for their technique (which is usually a compromise vs. what they may like to loop with or may not be). You know little about the stiffness of what the OP used then or now.

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    25. Top | #18
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      I think this is also personal preference. With my short pips on the forehand i like it if it feels hard and sturdy.
      While Mattias Falck proably like the softer feel, since he use Rakza PO that in my opinion is soft and he proably boost it alot so it becomes even softer.

      It proably also depend on the rubber. A softer blade with a harder short pimple rubber i think will feel okay. Aswell as a hard blade with softer rubber.

      It also depends on the playing style. I think Falck focus more on his backhand, that is why he use Ma Lin soft carbon(if that is the blade he uses). Easier to loop with, so works well for the backhand but i think it feels to soft for the short pimples. While penhold short pimple players focus more on counterattack and smashing, so they proably have very hard and stiff blades.

      I used Mazunov for a while, worked pretty good for the short pimple but felt a little hard for the backhandloop. Also felt that the blade was to direct with to low arc so i lost some margin of error. After that i tried Timo Boll Spirit which felt nice for the backhand and okay for the Forehand. Now i use Timo Boll ZLC and i feel it feels a little bit better for the short pimples because the blade feels a little more hard. Also think it suits more playing style better, which is pretty close to the table. Feel like the TB spirit have a somwhat higher arc and maybe are more suited for looping a bit away from the table.

      So i think it is pretty hard to say that somthing is "better" for something. Depends on alot of factors and what every individual likes.

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    27. Top | #19
      MOG is offline
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      Hmmm!!

    28. Top | #20
      MOG is offline
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      Whilst I am or have been an EJ, it's only slight.

      EG - been trying in last 5 months force pro blue, OSP V+, Infinity and Waldner 2016. They are all Off wood blades with slight differences. I have also used spectol red short pimples for 95% of the time since Jan and I play a lot, almost every day.

      I am not going from one extreme to the other.

      Force Pro Blue definitely is not as easy to loop with as Infinity and OSP V+ for my limited shots, that could be me or the blade.

      It is true that I often get new stuff euphoria when I try a new blade, maybe when one tries a new blade, one actually just concentrates more when training? I do not know?

      I think I have been playing better with short pimples but looking at my video footage I am not so sure.

      Might be time to accept my limitations, don't move, take the ball to late, block too much, serve badly, return badly and just enjoy the exercise and go back to reversed both sides. Either that or train myself to play proper short pimple shots.

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