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    1. Top | #41
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lula View Post
      I think you need to try to decide how you want to play.

      Now it seems like you play pretty fast blocking game. I think that is easier with a fast hard tensor rubber. So if you want ro win more by a high tempo this would Maybe be the best option.

      If you want to have a blocking game based more around deception and variation i still think you should try short pimple with less grip, medium pips and Maybe even an anti on the backhand. All of these Will give you good deception and variation. But it is not as easy to play fast.

      I think it looks like you are making some spin ans coming over the ball with the backhand so Do not know really if you have a natural backhand for short pimples. More suited for those with thicker hit. But like i Said it depends a little on how you wants to play.

      I Do think that you should try to base the game on blocking and counterattacking. Serve mostly long fast or half long and retur mostly long. Practice a lit of blocking ans counterattacking, counterlooping. Then try to search this in a game. But it looks like you Do already.

      I think the grip looks okay. I think it is proably more important that when he use short pimple he need to learn to tense the grip.
      My memory is hazy. I think about a year ago he showed me a photo of how he holds the racket to explain why he only likes Stiga Legend Flare handles. My memory could be wrong. But my memory is that how he holds limits his ability to adjust the grip. I know my grip shifts slightly when I do different shots. Like to fade on FH my grip opens a bit. To hook on FH my grip shifts to something almost like a BH grip. And many variations in between. Same with BH. There are subtle adjustments to grip my fingers do to adjust shot by shot. I don't even think about or realize I am doing those slight changes. They happen as my wrist and forearm adjust to the shots.

      My memory is, the way MOG has his index finger wrapped around the edge of the edge of the wing, and how hard his fingers on the handle were gripping, may limit the angles he can use on his BH and that may make return of serve on BH harder. I also know, when I return serve on BH, a more extreme BH grip to close the racket more, makes attacking serves feel much easier. If I had my hand gripping as hard as I remember and my index finger wrapped around the edge, there would be no way I could close my blade well enough to return serve well on my BH.

      If my memory is wrong, or I am remembering someone else who sent me the photos, then that is my memory. If I am remembering correctly, you guys may be able to see something that will help him more.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-17-2019 at 07:12 AM.
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    3. Top | #42
      Lula is offline
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      Okey! You have a good memory!

      I think there are many ways to hold a racket. That his index finger goes over the edge Maybe just mean that he has big hands. Jörgen Persson also curl his finger around the edge a bit so it is obviously working.

      As long as he Holds the racket soft as you mention i think it Will work okay. Hard for us to see that.

      I agree that technique is important But there are many ways to play and i Do not know if his grip is so important to focus on. I think you ans me are pretty alike Carl, We want to help people so much that We give them alot of advice. I have learned to give less advice because people can not focus on to much. I have also learned through the years as a part time coach that What is considered ”correct” Do not need to be the best option for everyone. It is okay if players Do nor have schoolbook technique if the current technique suits them and their playing style.

      Off topic! Carl! I Will try yoga this sunday!

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    5. Top | #43
      MOG is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      My memory is hazy. I think about a year ago he showed me a photo of how he holds the racket to explain why he only likes Stiga Legend Flare handles. My memory could be wrong. But my memory is that how he holds limits his ability to adjust the grip. I know my grip shifts slightly when I do different shots. Like to fade on FH my grip opens a bit. To hook on FH my grip shifts to something almost like a BH grip. And many variations in between. Same with BH. There are subtle adjustments to grip my fingers do to adjust shot by shot. I don't even think about or realize I am doing those slight changes. They happen as my wrist and forearm adjust to the shots.

      My memory is, the way MOG has his index finger wrapped around the edge of the edge of the wing, and how hard his fingers on the handle were gripping, may limit the angles he can use on his BH and that may make return of serve on BH harder. I also know, when I return serve on BH, a more extreme BH grip to close the racket more, makes attacking serves feel much easier. If I had my hand gripping as hard as I remember and my index finger wrapped around the edge, there would be no way I could close my blade well enough to return serve well on my BH.

      If my memory is wrong, or I am remembering someone else who sent me the photos, then that is my memory. If I am remembering correctly, you guys may be able to see something that will help him more.
      Carl is correct about my grip, but it is 30 years ingrained in me, it would kill me to modify my grip.

    6. Top | #44
      MOG is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lula View Post
      I think you need to try to decide how you want to play.

      Now it seems like you play pretty fast blocking game. I think that is easier with a fast hard tensor rubber. So if you want ro win more by a high tempo this would Maybe be the best option.

      If you want to have a blocking game based more around deception and variation i still think you should try short pimple with less grip, medium pips and Maybe even an anti on the backhand. All of these Will give you good deception and variation. But it is not as easy to play fast.

      I think it looks like you are making some spin ans coming over the ball with the backhand so Do not know really if you have a natural backhand for short pimples. More suited for those with thicker hit. But like i Said it depends a little on how you wants to play.

      I Do think that you should try to base the game on blocking and counterattacking. Serve mostly long fast or half long and retur mostly long. Practice a lit of blocking ans counterattacking, counterlooping. Then try to search this in a game. But it looks like you Do already.

      I think the grip looks okay. I think it is proably more important that when he use short pimple he need to learn to tense the grip.
      How I like to play, I am a bully!
      If I play a defender I generally try and attack, If I am playing someone who I feel I am faster or spinnier than I generally try to attack.
      However when I play faster or stronger attacking players I don't like playing fast fast and getting beaten, so then I often try and serve short and use angles more and counter attack and block.
      I don't like playing with long pimples although I have an awkward attacking style with them and cause more trouble to stronger opponents in general.
      I prefer playing with short pimples as I play with more confidence, I like taking people out of their comfort zone of reversed- reversed.
      I am trying to be more attacking in all play, at the moment I find it hard to attack very soft low shots with the short pimples (I guess everyone does). I attack short/mid table balls very well in general so try and serve short and get in with the pimples.
      SP seem better on faster blades but then my fh can not cope.

      TBH I feel like going back to my Infinity, going back to 1.9 on fh Tenergy and trying 1.5 Spectol Red on bh so its less bouncy.
      This would make my blocking easier and then maybe I can work on the rest of the stuff.

      The 1.8 spectol on a fast blade are pretty hard to control.
      Lula I think the Spectol Red are fairly low on spin. They are quite small pimples and quite spread out also vertical.
      I think they are a little bit classical and not that grippy, I am not sure though. They give a nasty shot against big spin.

    7. Top | #45
      MOG is offline
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      Click image for larger version. 

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      Spectol Red topsheet

      I have not liked the other short pimples I have used, they seem to much like inverted for opponent to block.
      Victas 102, Waran and Waran II, Degu.
      Last edited by MOG; 05-17-2019 at 09:15 AM.

    8. Top | #46
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lula View Post
      Okey! You have a good memory!

      I think there are many ways to hold a racket. That his index finger goes over the edge Maybe just mean that he has big hands. Jörgen Persson also curl his finger around the edge a bit so it is obviously working.

      As long as he Holds the racket soft as you mention i think it Will work okay. Hard for us to see that.

      I agree that technique is important But there are many ways to play and i Do not know if his grip is so important to focus on. I think you ans me are pretty alike Carl, We want to help people so much that We give them alot of advice. I have learned to give less advice because people can not focus on to much. I have also learned through the years as a part time coach that What is considered ”correct” Do not need to be the best option for everyone. It is okay if players Do nor have schoolbook technique if the current technique suits them and their playing style.

      Off topic! Carl! I Will try yoga this sunday!
      Oh no! Lula in the yoga class. The ladies will be in trouble! One thing many guys have trouble with in my yoga classes is the idea that they will look like they are a beginner. But all the ladies who do yoga so well all think, "let me help him," when they see a guy who is new to yoga.

      I agree with everything you said above. I also know Persson used a grip with the index finger wrapping around.

      If you see MOG's grip, you may see why I am thinking it interferes with his return of serve when he plays smooth. The grip is not relaxed. MOG does not have big hands.

      Anyway, it is true that it may not be a big deal. But I know I spent about a year, 7 or 8 years ago messing with my grip. Michael Landers, Edmund Suen and Damien Provost all made fun of me for how often I was changing my grip and trying to figure something good out. Each time I changed I had to figure out how to adjust to the new angle.

      In the end, I found something that really works for me. I understand why they made fun of me. I understand why what I was doing was a bit off the reservation. But it got me to find a relaxed way of holding the racket which makes it so my grip simply adjusts for each different shot.

      I never try and shift grips for FH or BH or for fade or hook; but my grip adjust for each shot as my arm position adjusts and it works quite well.

      I think MOG's grip may be so tight that that is part of why he has trouble with receiving serve on his BH when he has smooth rubber.

      I could be wrong. But, I think if you saw his photos of how he is holding, it may help. I know NextLevel saw how, at one point I held with such a BH grip that all my FH's were hook and he made one little comment that helped me move away from holding the racket so rigidly.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-17-2019 at 02:56 PM.

    9. Top | #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Oh no! Lula in the yoga class. The ladies will be in trouble! One thing many guys have trouble with in my yoga classes is the idea that they will look like they are a beginner. But all the ladies who do yoga so well all think, "let me help him," when they see a guy who is new to yoga.

      I agree with everything you said above. I also know Persson used a grip with the index finger wrapping around.

      If you see MOG's grip, you may see why I am thinking it interferes with his return of serve when he plays smooth. The grip is not relaxed. MOG does not have big hands.

      Anyway, it is true that it may not be a big deal. But I know I spent about a year, 7 or 8 years ago messing with my grip. Michael Landers, Edmund Suen and Damien Provost all made fun of me for how often I was changing my grip and trying to figure something good out. Each time I changed I had to figure out how to adjust to the new angle.

      In the end, I found something that really works for me. I understand why they made fun of me. I understand why what I was doing was a bit off the reservation. But it got me to find a relaxed way of holding the racket which makes it so my grip simply adjusts for each different shot.

      I never try and shift grips for FH or BH or for fade or hook; but my grip adjust for each shot as my arm position adjusts and it works quite well.

      I think MOG's grip may be so tight that that is part of why he has trouble with receiving serve on his BH when he has smooth rubber.

      I could be wrong. But, I think if you saw his photos of how he is holding, it may help. I know NextLevel saw how, at one point I held with such a BH grip that all my FH's were hook and he made one little comment that helped me move away from holding the racket so rigidly.
      I am suddenly very motivated to try alot of yoga haha.

      I have also experiemented a bit with my grip. This is why good coaches at a young age is important. If you hold "wrong" it is basically harder to do some kind of shots. If i play someone the first time i look at how they hold the racket and it is possible to anticipate a little what they proably are good and bad at. The problem with changing grip is that it feels wrong because you are used to something else. So if you have a good coach in the beginning so you hold the racket somewhat correct in the beginning this is an non issue.

      What i focus on when i coach players, mostly children is that i want them to hold as neutral as possible, hold it like loose -almost lika a spaghetti or a dead fish handhake and try to have the indexfinger down at the bottom of the rubber. As long as they do this i do not care how they grip the racket. The problem is if they have to much fh grip or to much bh grip and hold the racket rock hard. But i prefer them to hold to much backhand grip compared to to much forehand grip. I also think it is somewhat okay to change grip as long as it is not to much. If they just hold loosely they will change grip without noticing.

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    11. Top | #48
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      And my memory is, the grip was FH oriented and very tight.

    12. Top | #49
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      BTW: when I was switching my grip over and over, I figured out a way of getting used to the new grip quickly so that it felt right for me.

      5-10 min of self hitting made it so I adjusted to the new grip:



      By trying different grips, I ended up with a relaxed neutral grip where I don't change grips, but the grip adjusts to the shot. Rather than being stuck with only one grip.

      I was in my late 40s when I did the grip experiments. So I think someone who is older and playing with one grip for a long time can adjust and change things.

      Also, I fixed my strokes in my 40s. My strokes used to be really really bad. Now people think I am better than I am if they just see me training because the form is acceptable. So, an older player can change old habits.

    13. Top | #50
      MOG is offline
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      Lula

      The spectol red i dont think are that grippy, they are bouncy. They seem better on my force pro blue 7 ply but there fast as hell. A good payer I know had a mess with them and thought they were not very grippy at all.

      Do you not think if I sometimes play a reversed shot I should try a spinny short pimple, so I can do a pseudo loop but still punch and hit through stuff! As opposed to your suggestion of getting a non grippy short pimple.

      My main problem with long pimples is the weight change and balance change of blade, they are also less versatile than short pimples IMO.

      Here are 2 pictures of my 'dodgy grip', I used to have top two fingers on bh of blade until I was coached out of this age about 20. But the second finger always sneaks back. I think it is one of the reasons I block so much.

      Click image for larger version. 

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      Last edited by MOG; 05-17-2019 at 09:32 PM.

    14. Top | #51
      MOG is offline
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      Your description of the Yoga Carl. I think I might take up Yoga very soon.

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    16. Top | #52
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Well, I am joking around. But I would say that 95%+ of the people who take my group classes are women. And when a guy does appear lost and vulnerable, they do love to take him under their wing. So, real and joke at the same time.

      Thanks for the photos of the grip. It is pretty much how I remember. Somewhat shifted to the FH orientation and held tight.

      I am sure it is fine for everything else. But I have money on that making it harder for you to receive serve with your BH with smooth rubber because you are locked into a FH orientation.

    17. Top | #53
      MOG is offline
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      To be fair Carl, my grip changes and becomes more normal on bh, my thumb rises a bit to centre of blade. It is a weird grip though. It makes my fh a lollipop grip on fh blocks.

    18. Top | #54
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by MOG View Post
      To be fair Carl, my grip changes and becomes more normal on bh, my thumb rises a bit to centre of blade. It is a weird grip though. It makes my fh a lollipop grip on fh blocks.
      Okay. That is good that it is relaxed enough to shift for different shots.

    19. Top | #55
      MOG is offline
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      I think you may be correct about sometimes gripping too tight though.

      I have been reading some stuff suggesting the spectol red are more medium pimples than short. They can be very weird and floaty at times.

    20. Top | #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by MOG View Post
      Lula

      The spectol red i dont think are that grippy, they are bouncy. They seem better on my force pro blue 7 ply but there fast as hell. A good payer I know had a mess with them and thought they were not very grippy at all.

      Do you not think if I sometimes play a reversed shot I should try a spinny short pimple, so I can do a pseudo loop but still punch and hit through stuff! As opposed to your suggestion of getting a non grippy short pimple.

      My main problem with long pimples is the weight change and balance change of blade, they are also less versatile than short pimples IMO.

      Here are 2 pictures of my 'dodgy grip', I used to have top two fingers on bh of blade until I was coached out of this age about 20. But the second finger always sneaks back. I think it is one of the reasons I block so much.

      Click image for larger version. 

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      Click image for larger version. 

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      Try to just spin the ball with the rubber in the air. If you understand what i mean. Or just feel the rubber with the ball or the hand and you will feel if there is alot of grip or not.

      I use spinnier short pimple because i will have spin in the serve and good first opening loop. But i do not have it because i want to loop in the game. I do not think you should do either. If you feel like you need to loop to much, then you are not moving well enough. Then it is better to use an inverted rubber, because you can loop with spin. If you want to loop after serve and return i think you should use inverted.

      Grippier short pimple is better for serve and opening loop. Less gripp is better for returns and deception.

      I think your grip looks okay. I think it looks pretty neutral. But do you have trouble relaxing when holding the racket because one finger is basically is not on the blade? if you understand what i mean. I think you could try to move in that finger. if you do i think you can hold more relaxed. But not sure.

      And cut your nails before you hurt someone haha

    21. Top | #57
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      Lula

      they are definitely not that grippy, they are very very fast though maybe too much.
      maybe i should try a grippier short pimple just to see the difference?

      my thought would be it would be easier to open up on the longer and lower balls, first ball, then hit the next one
      I think maybe the spectol 1.8 is just too bouncy and fast, it seems like others think the same.

      I guess I could try it in 1.5
      Although I am tempted to try spinpips red or rakza PO

      I am not going back to inverted I like being a bit different, even just as it makes people think a little more about how they are playing

      The spinpips red seem very popular.

      What do you use on fh?

      My movement needs large improvements anyway, at least I actually bend my knees now I used to play totally upright like Michael Johnson sprinting.
      I think footwork drills would really help me, lots and lots of them.

      Off for a pedicure before Yoga.

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    23. Top | #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by MOG View Post
      Lula

      they are definitely not that grippy, they are very very fast though maybe too much.
      maybe i should try a grippier short pimple just to see the difference?

      my thought would be it would be easier to open up on the longer and lower balls, first ball, then hit the next one
      I think maybe the spectol 1.8 is just too bouncy and fast, it seems like others think the same.

      I guess I could try it in 1.5
      Although I am tempted to try spinpips red or rakza PO

      I am not going back to inverted I like being a bit different, even just as it makes people think a little more about how they are playing

      The spinpips red seem very popular.

      What do you use on fh?

      My movement needs large improvements anyway, at least I actually bend my knees now I used to play totally upright like Michael Johnson sprinting.
      I think footwork drills would really help me, lots and lots of them.

      Off for a pedicure before Yoga.
      hard to say. I use grippier because i do not base my game around deception. Not so interested in much effect in the ball, and i ahve always used grippier short pimples. Are pretty bad at twiddle the racket aswell so need somewhat grippy short pimples. Also feel like it is easy to get punished at the first opening loop.

      I think it is wise to use a rubber for a longer time. Believe more in trying a rubber for a really long time, aslong as you just not hate it and work on the technique instead.

      I like short pimples rubbers that feel hard and a bit dead. Do not like them to soft and bounce. Feel like i do not feel the ball well with them and think i get to much help so can cheat with the stroke. With harder and a bit slower rubbers i really need to do the correct stroke.

      I used Haifu dolphin for almost 10 years. Liked it. Did not want to change. But they basically stopped doing it and the quality became worse and worse so could only play with a sheet of rubber for less than a month. Tried Spinpips blue and used it for like two weeks. I wanted something similar to haifu dolphin and this was not good. Felt to soft and mushy so i felt it bottomed out. Was not possible to use a correct short pimple technique to smash the ball hard. But excellent spin. A friend had a 802 40 laying around that i got to try. The feeling iof 802 40 was more similar to haifu dolphin so i use it now. But without booster and with just 1,8 thickness. Think it is still pretty fast. I am going to try 2,2 thickness since i have always used that, and i hope it will be a bit faster and maybe just a bit softer.

      Have tried rakza PO, and i think it feels to soft. Do not like the feel of it. Mattias Falck obviously do and play well with it, but i think he uses alot alot alot of booster.

      My advice to use is to keep your current short pimple rubber and work alot on the technique. If you still do not think it feels right you can try another rubber. I still believe in a medium pips rubber like spinlord keiler or something similar for you.

    24. The Following User Likes Lula's Post:

      MOG (05-18-2019)

    25. Top | #59
      MOG is offline
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      Advanced TTD Member Country: England

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      This is me playing with pimples on bh, I bet you cant guess what?

      Lula? Carl?

      I think I play fairly well in this match!


    26. Top | #60
      MOG is offline
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      This is a fantastic thread!! Forgotten how good some of the advice in here was!

      Today I bought an Avalox P700 cheap on an auction site.

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