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ML presently dominates bh exchanges against the players that are supposed to have a "better bh" than him; FZD, TH, LJK, HC. Watch all the tournaments ML played since his comeback, he has clearly worked even more on his bh during the past year. The consistency and the way he attacks 2-3 points on the opponents bh during these bh exchanges is just amazing to watch. He outmaneuvers these guys, and if ML could do the parallel bh a little more often he would be even more menacing.

If he had Best BH he would use it more. How many times you saw him playing BH topspin from heavy underspin shot like FZD or even ZJK. He is FH orientated player like XX the difference is that XX is trying to find FH everywhere while ML is covering 75% of table. Decent maybe is not the best Word but definitey much better then Best in the world.
 
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I wouldn't say ML has the best BH in the world right now, that is very subjective, but he definitely worked on his consistency and is more confident in BH-BH exchanges. He beat FZD at his own game, by applying pressure with the BH instead of stepping around with the FH.

I don't now if he is the best at everything but he is the most consistently powerful, he just doesn't miss. You have to put a perfect ball in, otherwise you're going to get punished. That puts a lot of pressure in his opponents.
 
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How do you define "best"? When best bh is mentioned people always bring up FZD, LJK, TH and HC. ML dominate these guys in BH exchanges now (2019). That for me is enough to stamp ML's bh as the best, but if we also take into consideration his bh serve returns with flicks, short, push, fake push/flick, hard wide loop returns on long serve there really is no question who has the best bh today. Yes, I've studied a "few" matches both with ML and the above mentioned opponents, both vs ML but also other players ;) It's quite easy for HC to shine on bh against a lower ranked player. Against ML he run into quicksand, or blitzkrieg. ML takes your game away from you, and makes it his own.

I wouldn't say ML has the best BH in the world right now, that is very subjective, but he definitely worked on his consistency and is more confident in BH-BH exchanges. He beat FZD at his own game, by applying pressure with the BH instead of stepping around with the FH.

I don't now if he is the best at everything but he is the most consistently powerful, he just doesn't miss. You have to put a perfect ball in, otherwise you're going to get punished. That puts a lot of pressure in his opponents.
 
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How do you define "best"? When best bh is mentioned people always bring up FZD, LJK, TH and HC. ML dominate these guys in BH exchanges now (2019). That for me is enough to stamp ML's bh as the best, but if we also take into consideration his bh serve returns with flicks, short, push, fake push/flick, hard wide loop returns on long serve there really is no question who has the best bh today. Yes, I've studied a "few" matches both with ML and the above mentioned opponents, both vs ML but also other players ;) It's quite easy for HC to shine on bh against a lower ranked player. Against ML he run into quicksand, or blitzkrieg. ML takes your game away from you, and makes it his own.

My buddy Tim has the best backhand in the world. Ma Long is so afraid that he hasn’t played him even one match yet.


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These are the kind of responses we will get as arguments since no one is better than Ma Long and it just stings in certain peoples eyes :D

Same here, by the way.

Can you present the matches where he dominated the players you listed because of dominant backhand play in the rallies?

I tried to watch his recent matches vs those players and I noted that the more dynamic backhand player was always his opponent.
 
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I didn't miss the point at all. I acknowledge that technology makes a huge difference to many sports (eg shoes and flooring in any sport that requires running, and especially equipment in TT).

But for me "all the pontential factors" (other than actual improvements in equipment technology), don't include factors in the second half of his talk. Better equipment does take away from the improvements in performance. But better sporting organisation, infrastructure, training, and general way you (or an organisation) go about making you perform really well at a sport do not take away from how good of an athlete you are.

The fact that someone has been chosen more carefully, trained better, have better nutrition, or have access to more accumulated knowledge of their sport, does not in anyway make them not better athletes than people who didn't have these.

Having these things makes you precisely, better at whatever sport we choose to talk about.

Still missing the point. What you listed is what Epstein points out in his talk - technology, genes(extreme body type) and mindset(training/nutrition/knowledge) are 3 such factors that contribute to the improvement over the years.

Imagine ML is to go back to the era of 38mm ball, 21-point, speedglue, and hidden serve. He would likely not have played like how he does now. He would've developed differently. This is what many people overlook when they say ML would cream everyone if he were to go back in time.

The point is not that players of today are not better than players of yesterday. The point is that they're not all that different if they were to develop and compete under the same conditions.
 
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The point is not that players of today are not better than players of yesterday. The point is that they're not all that different if they were to develop and compete under the same conditions.

But that's the entire point. The Ma Long that developed those conditions is a person that's never even existed.

To stripulate modern players developing under the same conditions as the players of old, is to mentally construct hypothetical players that don't exist.

Table Tennis has a muddling factor that rules and equipment changes have caused modern players to be playing, what is arguably, a different game, not just a more developed one.

But taking out that confounding factor aside (or you know, just choose a different sport). The 'conditions under which you develop and compete' are the vast majority what makes a player the player they are. You strip away, or equalise, all of that. And you are no longer comparing how good players are, you are only comparing how much raw potential people have for that sport.

Different, fundamentally better conditions, are exactly what make modern players better (on average, obviously not everyone). To take that out of the equation, renders the comparison completely meaningless. Without development a player has had, and the conditions under which it occured, you no longer have an athlete at all. You just have some person who has some amount of raw potential to play a sport.
 
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These are the kind of responses we will get as arguments since no one is better than Ma Long and it just stings in certain peoples eyes :D

Same here, by the way.

These are the types of responses we get when people don’t bow to the glory of Tim’s backhand.


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But that's the entire point. The Ma Long that developed those conditions is a person that's never even existed.

To stripulate modern players developing under the same conditions as the players of old, is to mentally construct hypothetical players that don't exist.

Table Tennis has a muddling factor that rules and equipment changes have caused modern players to be playing, what is arguably, a different game, not just a more developed one.

But taking out that confounding factor aside (or you know, just choose a different sport). The 'conditions under which you develop and compete' are the vast majority what makes a player the player they are. You strip away, or equalise, all of that. And you are no longer comparing how good players are, you are only comparing how much raw potential people have for that sport.

Different, fundamentally better conditions, are exactly what make modern players better (on average, obviously not everyone). To take that out of the equation, renders the comparison completely meaningless. Without development a player has had, and the conditions under which it occured, you no longer have an athlete at all. You just have some person who has some amount of raw potential to play a sport.

It goes back to the imapct of the golden generation of European table tennis. ML wouldn't have developed into how he is now without the success(proof of concept) and legacies of those before him.

That's why some insist Greatest of All Time makes no sense and why I differentiate it from most decorated. You can't make a fair comparison without taking all those factors into account. Take Guo Yuehua for example. He retired before table tennis became part of the Olympics. Would that make him any less great than players after him? You see, Waldner says he regrets he couldn't play Guo Yuehua once in his heyday. He respects Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang way more than he does Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui, despite the latter being Grand Slam holders. That's the kind of respect for legacies I'm talking about, not something superficial like number of titles.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2019-04-11/doc-ihvhiewr4727577.shtml
“郭跃华在世锦赛上拿了两次单打冠军,在瑞典也很有名。他打球出神入化,看他打球可以享受乒乓球的神奇,我很遗憾在他的鼎盛时期一次也没遇上他。在我拿到世界冠军之前,江嘉良就很成功了,他是我追赶的榜样,也是我一直想打败的人。从别人手里夺来冠军,这种成功是很有意义的。”说到刘国梁、孔令辉,老瓦说自己很尊重他们,但没有像对郭跃华和江嘉良那种崇拜的成份。“我们三个都是大满贯,他们俩比我小一辈儿。”言外之意可能是,就像我追赶郭跃华、江嘉良,他们是追赶我的人。“我打了这么多年球,遇到了几代中国运动员,我想我对于他们的意义,就像他们对我一样,都是相互促进,相互鼓励。”
"Guo Yuehua won two singles titles in the World Championships and is also very famous in Sweden. He played so well that, while watching him play you can enjoy the magic of table tennis. It's a shame I didn't meet him once during his heyday. Before I won the world championship, Jiang Jialiang was already very successful. He was the role model I pursued and the one I always wanted to defeat. It means so much to snatch the championship from others." Speaking of Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui, Waldner said that he respects them very much, but it doesn't come close to that for Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang. "All three of us are grand slam holders. They are 2 generations younger than me." The implication may be that I pursued Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang, and they are the people who pursued me. "I have played so many years and I have met several generations of Chinese players. I think what I'm to them is like how they're to me. Pushing and encouraging each other."
 
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To be clear, I agree 'greatest of all time' is pretty meaningless, which is why I have no stake in whether Ma Long or anyone else is or isn't.

Greatness has no real objective definition, it's IMO fairly pointless to discuss, it comes down to semantics in the end on what you mean by 'greatness'. But Ma Long, and likely some other modern players are probably going to be 'better players' by virtue of of being born and developed in a later, and consequently better time.

It's also unfortunate that table tennis happens to be a sport in which rules have changed so much in just the last few decades that were you to hypothetically have a time machine and set up a match between a modern player and a player from their past. The choice of ball, service rules and scoring system means they arn't even playing the same game the way they trained to play that game anymore.

But in a sport less wracked by fundamental changes. While "Greatness" is pretty meaningless, I think it's fairly clear Modern players are going to be on average BETTER than players from an older era. That is to say, in a sport that has still the same fundamental rules, if we were to use a time machine to set up the direct matchup, between a modern player and a player from an older time. The modern player would probably outperform them.

We'll take swimming as an example (it happens to best isolate the principle). Since if you take away advances in technology, it doesn't mean a modern swimmer is completely unable to function competitively, they are just a bit slower. With the adoption of the flip turn and the dolphin kick, the modern swimmer is obviously going to wipe the floor with a similarly ranked swimmer from before the 50s, despite swimming under the same rule set. That is to say, the modern swimmer is objectively better at the sport of competitive swimming, especially for short distances. Even without their fancy skinsuits and faster pools.

Sure, these improvements in technique, were invented by people in the past. But the fact of the matter is a modern swimmer/player benefits from knowledge of the past, it is a part of what they are as an athlete/player. It in no way stops the modern athlete from being better at their sport.

This is in no way meant as disrespectful to players, or people in general in the past. Or in any way diminishes their contributions. This is just how progress works. Future players will almost certainly be better players than the players of today.

If we arn't overall more capable than people of the past, then we've been doing this whole civilisation thing wrong.
 
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Pick any match since his comeback against some of the players I mentioned. ML wins more bh exchanges than he loses. That would'nt have been a reality lets say 3 years ago.

Can you present the matches where he dominated the players you listed because of dominant backhand play in the rallies?

I tried to watch his recent matches vs those players and I noted that the more dynamic backhand player was always his opponent.
 
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Pick any match since his comeback against some of the players I mentioned. ML wins more bh exchanges than he loses. That would'nt have been a reality lets say 3 years ago.

I have and I cannot find one. Look at the match vs Calderano at WTTC. Ma Long won the vast majority of his points with forehand shots and opened very little with the backhand. Same vs FZD at China Open. So I want you to explain why I am looking at it wrong. He is getting in some backhand winners or using it to set up his forehand but he is not the winner of the backhand matchup.
 
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