China Open 2019

yoass · Jun 4, 2019

No, I don’t suffer and can’t relate to the winning fetish.

Winning is overrated. The game itself is the prize.

RidTheKid · Jun 4, 2019

That is true as well because you love the game. But the casual viewer don't see the game the same way you do. And winning is an added bonus to the best sport on earth.

yoass said:
No, I don’t suffer and can’t relate to the winning fetish.

Winning is overrated. The game itself is the prize.

aerial · Jun 4, 2019

zeio said:
I wouldn't have spent time on ML's interviews in my youtube channel if I didn't. I wouldn't have spent time on Ishikawa's interviews if I didn't. I wouldn't have spent time on subbing all these interviews to keep the West posted if I didn't want table tennis to get more respect.

The thing is table tennis is already a niche sport. I'm tired of people trying to make it only about 1 player and everyone else irrelevant, disregarding their legacies and contributions to the sport. It saddens me how little the West knows and shows next to no respect to the golden generation of European table tennis.

you know, in ML's victory world champs speech he said the victory was nice, but what he really wanted was everyone's respect... obviously he's gotta get at least a double grand slam and two of all open titles to earn zeio's respect cause winning everything at least one time around isn't enough

aerial · Jun 4, 2019

zeio said:
In terms of Standard Mandarin, Ishikawa is the best. Fukuhara speaks the Northeastern variant at near-native level. Harimoto speaks with a little Sichuan accent, as pointed out by those from Sichuan.

But yeh, Harimoto still has trouble coming up with the right words from time to time, though he has gotten better compared to last year. He understands the questions better and is more eloquent now. He literally spoke in phrases more than sentences last year.

if nobody ever told me, I would've thought HT was fully Japanese, not Japanese nationality with Chinese ethnicity

to me his mandarin sounds likes a Japanese person's, but what do I know I'm just an ABC

rainneverever · Jun 4, 2019

I wouldn't judge the Chinese of TH and KI if I could not distinguish the meaning of a common Chinese word 代 in different context as a native Chinese speaker. Double standards again and again lol

After FZD lost to ML in China Open, he said, I don't feel a shame to lose to him. Whoever thinks he can beat ML, go for it. Then when ML was asked why he can keep winning against most players. ML said, he doesn't know why and he has difficulties to play many players. But as the match going, maybe he can play better and make the opponents uncomfortable. He doesn't think he is stronger than others in terms of techniques and tactics.
When ML was asked why he can beat LGY easily recently, what makes the difference, he said their levels are very close, he won by small margin. In WTTC, maybe LGY had no experience to play QF; in China Open, maybe LGY was tired out after many deciders.

I guess ML's words will be taken really seriously by our beloved member here. What a good support that TT world is weakest! ML wins just because his opponents suck (no hunger, injured, tired, no experience, choked, etc)

And I do wish other players won't take ML's words that seriously. They need to appreciate a word, modesty.

zeio · Jun 4, 2019

Amaken23 said:
I can assure you that "west" knows about that generation you talk about. It's not that they don't "show respect", it's that this generation is not winning. Every casual fan of any sport, from football to table tennis, is only going to know guys who are winning. And the people winning now are chinese. People make it about 1 player because this player is WINNING.... a lot. Simple as that.

I can give you an example from other sport : Lev Yashin, a goalkeeper from Russia (back then USSR). Only goalkeeper in history to win Golden Ball. Ever. I'd say that he contributed to the sport of football, especially for goalkeepers, but does anyone who isn't a diehard football fan know him ?

People who play table tennis from "west", especially from countries with table tennis history, such as Hungary, England, France, Germany, Poland, etc. know those players. But casual fans will probably care only about winners.

That isn't what I'm talking about. By "know so little...", I don't mean knowing about those players by name. It's the lasting impact of that generation on the then-future trajectory of contemporary table tennis that has largely been overlooked and brushed off when people compare achievements. That's where the West pays little respect.

RidTheKid · Jun 4, 2019

You know what. You can blame the ITTF for that with all these equipment changes, people start to talk about "cell ball era", "poly ball era" and whatnot. One needs to understand her history to understand the future.

zeio said:
That isn't what I'm talking about. By "know so little...", I don't mean knowing about those players by name. It's the lasting impact of that generation on the then-future trajectory of contemporary table tennis that has largely been overlooked and brushed off when people compare achievements. That's where the West pays little respect.

Hysteresis · Jun 4, 2019

zeio said:
It's not about not mentioning ML's accomplishments. That's so superficial. It's more than just stats. It's about how people fail to see from the perspective of the past and how it relates and translates to the present. Basically, most people just assume the players of today are always faster, higher and stronger than those of yesterday.

Is that really the case?

I have a pet peeve with this exact topic, on this exact video. About people who glorify the past over the present.

Given that in this exact video, he spends almost the entire second half of the video explaining exactly why athletes of today are 'faster, higher and stronger'.

I don't think too many people are arguing that humanity as a whole have become much better in a base biological sense. But even that video supports that the people that compete, especially at a high level, at these sports are precisely, on average and probably at the top, better than "those of yesterday".

Improvements in technology aside, we do choose athlete's with more suitable body types/talents. We have better understanding of biomechanics/nutrition/medicine/sport psychology. We have accumulated more knowledge about how best to play these sports, and how to train in them. People in general, have more free time and more access to resources to dedicate themselves to the sport as a profession. And yes, we also sometimes cheat better at sports.

While most of the increase in performance in many sports, including TT may be due to changes in rules and technology.
It still doesn't change that, athletes today still perform better, on average, than those from before.

With or without technology, these 7 feet basketball players are probably better players than people of 'average body type', swimmers who use the flip turn are probably better at the sport of swimming the same athlete who doesn't use it.

They may be the beneficiaries of immense improvements in lifestyle, infrastructure, selection and technical knowledge in their sport, but when push comes to shove, and these athletes are asked to perform, they DO perform better, it makes them 'faster, higher, stronger'

RidTheKid · Jun 4, 2019

It's easy to get caught up in nostalgia. It's human.

Hysteresis said:
I have a pet peeve with this exact topic, on this exact video. About people who glorify the past over the present.

Given that in this exact video, he spends almost the entire second half of the video explaining exactly why athletes of today are 'faster, higher and stronger'.

I don't think too many people are arguing that humanity as a whole have become much better in a base biological sense. But even that video supports that the people that compete, especially at a high level, at these sports are precisely, on average and probably at the top, better than "those of yesterday".

Improvements in technology aside, we do choose athlete's with more suitable body types/talents. We have better understanding of biomechanics/nutrition/medicine/sport psychology. We have accumulated more knowledge about how best to play these sports, and how to train in them. People in general, have more free time and more access to resources to dedicate themselves to the sport as a profession. And yes, we also sometimes cheat better at sports.

While most of the increase in performance in many sports, including TT may be due to changes in rules and technology.
It still doesn't change that, athletes today still perform better, on average, than those from before.

With or without technology, these 7 feet basketball players are probably better players than people of 'average body type', swimmers who use the flip turn are probably better at the sport of swimming the same athlete who doesn't use it.

They may be the beneficiaries of immense improvements in lifestyle, infrastructure, selection and technical knowledge in their sport, but when push comes to shove, and these athletes are asked to perform, they DO perform better, it makes them 'faster, higher, stronger'

zeio · Jun 4, 2019

RidTheKid said:
You know what. You can blame the ITTF for that with all these equipment changes, people start to talk about "cell ball era", "poly ball era" and whatnot. One needs to understand her history to understand the future.

Ugh, it's not that. The reason I posted that Ted Talk by David Epstein is to show that players from different eras aren't really all that different, after taking into account the impact of all external factors.

yoass · Jun 4, 2019

RidTheKid said:
It's easy to get caught up in nostalgia. It's human.

Well, nostalgia isn't what it used to be if you ask me.

RidTheKid · Jun 4, 2019

I bet you've waited to use that one

yoass said:
Well, nostalgia isn't what it used to be if you ask me.

zeio · Jun 4, 2019

Hysteresis said:
I have a pet peeve with this exact topic, on this exact video. About people who glorify the past over the present.

Given that in this exact video, he spends almost the entire second half of the video explaining exactly why athletes of today are 'faster, higher and stronger'.

I don't think too many people are arguing that humanity as a whole have become much better in a base biological sense. But even that video supports that the people that compete, especially at a high level, at these sports are precisely, on average and probably at the top, better than "those of yesterday".

Improvements in technology aside, we do choose athlete's with more suitable body types/talents. We have better understanding of biomechanics/nutrition/medicine/sport psychology. We have accumulated more knowledge about how best to play these sports, and how to train in them. People in general, have more free time and more access to resources to dedicate themselves to the sport as a profession. And yes, we also sometimes cheat better at sports.

While most of the increase in performance in many sports, including TT may be due to changes in rules and technology.
It still doesn't change that, athletes today still perform better, on average, than those from before.

With or without technology, these 7 feet basketball players are probably better players than people of 'average body type', swimmers who use the flip turn are probably better at the sport of swimming the same athlete who doesn't use it.

They may be the beneficiaries of immense improvements in lifestyle, infrastructure, selection and technical knowledge in their sport, but when push comes to shove, and these athletes are asked to perform, they DO perform better, it makes them 'faster, higher, stronger'

That's where you and most miss the point, when comparing 7-foot giants to people of average body type. Account for all the potential factors and suddenly the gap doesn't look that wide anymore. That's the message Epstein tried to get across.

RidTheKid · Jun 4, 2019

I think we can all agree that the players presently are better athletes, better physical prowess than the previous generations. And that is due to adapting to the equipment changes. BUT the sport was faster during the 38 mm era

zeio said:
Ugh, it's not that. The reason I posted that Ted Talk by David Epstein is to show that players from different eras aren't really all that different, after taking into account the impact of all external factors.

Amaken23 · Jun 4, 2019

zeio said:
That isn't what I'm talking about. By "know so little...", I don't mean knowing about those players by name. It's the lasting impact of that generation on the then-future trajectory of contemporary table tennis that has largely been overlooked and brushed off when people compare achievements. That's where the West pays little respect.

So.... you basically say that people from "west" don't acknowledge achievements of present/past players outside of China ? What !? I am sorry, but it is false. Here, in Poland, we honor our former players Andrzej Grubba, Leszek Kucharski, Tomasz Krzeszewski, Lucjan Błaszczyk to this day. Many players who are on our national team learned from them/watched them play and were inspired by them (mainly by first 2 players). And it is the case for many players from different countries.

As for your video about differences in athletes, yes, they are different. Do you think that Istvan Jonyer, Andrzej Grubba are the same type of players physically and technically than, say Ma Long or Timo Boll ? Of course not. Just like with any sport, evolution is necessary to achieve or maintain greatness. You make your technique better and more consistent, you train your footwork to suprise your opponent with shots or to move quicker. You cannot say that evolution does not result in better players. Not taller, obviously but quicker and stronger ? Yes.

NextLevel · Jun 4, 2019

rainneverever said:
I wouldn't judge the Chinese of TH and KI if I could not distinguish the meaning of a common Chinese word 代 in different context as a native Chinese speaker. Double standards again and again lol

After FZD lost to ML in China Open, he said, I don't feel a shame to lose to him. Whoever thinks he can beat ML, go for it. Then when ML was asked why he can keep winning against most players. ML said, he doesn't know why and he has difficulties to play many players. But as the match going, maybe he can play better and make the opponents uncomfortable. He doesn't think he is stronger than others in terms of techniques and tactics.
When ML was asked why he can beat LGY easily recently, what makes the difference, he said their levels are very close, he won by small margin. In WTTC, maybe LGY had no experience to play QF; in China Open, maybe LGY was tired out after many deciders.

I guess ML's words will be taken really seriously by our beloved member here. What a good support that TT world is weakest! ML wins just because his opponents suck (no hunger, injured, tired, no experience, choked, etc)

And I do wish other players won't take ML's words that seriously. They need to appreciate a word, modesty.

Not just modesty. He learned the hard way the pressure you put on your game when you tell yourself you are much better than other players. So add experience to modesty.

Hysteresis · Jun 4, 2019

zeio said:
That's where you and most miss the point, when comparing 7-foot giants to people of average body type. Account for all the potential factors and suddenly the gap doesn't look that wide anymore. That's the message Epstein tried to get across.

I didn't miss the point at all. I acknowledge that technology makes a huge difference to many sports (eg shoes and flooring in any sport that requires running, and especially equipment in TT).

But for me "all the pontential factors" (other than actual improvements in equipment technology), don't include factors in the second half of his talk. Better equipment does take away from the improvements in performance. But better sporting organisation, infrastructure, training, and general way you (or an organisation) go about making you perform really well at a sport do not take away from how good of an athlete you are.

The fact that someone has been chosen more carefully, trained better, have better nutrition, or have access to more accumulated knowledge of their sport, does not in anyway make them not better athletes than people who didn't have these.

Having these things makes you precisely, better at whatever sport we choose to talk about.

rainneverever · Jun 4, 2019

NextLevel said:
Not just modesty. He learned the hard way the pressure you put on your game when you tell yourself you are much better than other players. So add experience to modesty.

I referred to his comments that he doesn't think his techniques and tactics are stronger than others. Technical wise, he is not possible to be best at individual technique but he is most well wounded and very good at most. He keeps using many old fashioned techniques not banana flick everything at every corner, and they work. Tactics wise, many players don't have many tactics in their mind when playing, or they don't know what or when to adjust tactics during match. So if they simply think ML beat them not because ML used better techniques and tactics but because ML is more experienced, they won't improve much the next time.

Playing more definitely provides experiences like sustaining pressure or playing better against certain player but that's not enough. Be more versatile on techniques and tactics in addition to train hard and perfect those already mastered. What's more, game reading, or brain. That's what ML thinks his strength is. That's what CNT coaches think ML special since he was a teen when he was still criticized by those coaches to be lack of physical power, lack of killing shots, lack of mental strength, etc. No one deny that he is the very kind of players who play smart and know when it is the chance. Win if capitalize the chance with the support of body condition, techniques/tactics, determination to win, self confidence, etc. Lose if not capitalize. That's nothing new from the past of this sport, to play the game with not only body but also brain.

tropical · Jun 4, 2019

I bet this ML topic will come back even when ML wins (theoretically) OG in 2020. Then still there are folks like Zeio who wants put a doubt on his achievement and using his subbed videos to illustrate ridiculous opinions. To tell the truth I watched his subbed videos couple times then just stopped and treated them like they were fake news. His arguments are nothing new, keeps using the same old sh.t repeated many times until it gets into people head like an old record bores people to death, while more facts/evidences keep coming and prove how superb ML is.

NextLevel · Jun 4, 2019

rainneverever said:
I referred to his comments that he doesn't think his techniques and tactics are stronger than others. Technical wise, he is not possible to be best at individual technique but he is most well wounded and very good at most. He keeps using many old fashioned techniques not banana flick everything at every corner, and they work. Tactics wise, many players don't have many tactics in their mind when playing, or they don't know what or when to adjust tactics during match. So if they simply think ML beat them not because ML used better techniques and tactics but because ML is more experienced, they won't improve much the next time.

Playing more definitely provides experiences like sustaining pressure or playing better against certain player but that's not enough. Be more versatile on techniques and tactics in addition to train hard and perfect those already mastered. What's more, game reading, or brain. That's what ML thinks his strength is. That's what CNT coaches think ML special since he was a teen when he was still criticized by those coaches to be lack of physical power, lack of killing shots, lack of mental strength, etc. No one criticized him not play smart. Play smart and know when it is the chance. Win if capitalize the chance with the support of body condition, techniques/tactics, determination to win, self confidence, etc. Lose if not capitalize. That's nothing new from the past of this sport, to play the game with not only body but also brain.

Yes those comments are partly modesty. But they are partly to reduce the pressure on himself. You can disagree but other coaches have pointed this out. When you respect your opponent, you don't panic when things are not going well like Ma Long used to. He is struggling with Harimoto, he respects Harimoto's game and expects a struggle. If he said "I am better than Harimoto, I should not lose to him", this creates panic when things don't go well. After the match he has go maintain the same attitude

I am speaking a bit from experience because I remember how I used to feel when in the USATT system I would lose some games to a player lower than myself by 200 pts. Then I stopped acting as if I must win because my ranking is higher. I just kept focusing on how well my opponent is playing and how well I am playing and it stopped putting pressure on me. And after the match, when I play a good shot to win. People tell me I played well, but I tell them I was fortunate and that my opponent really had me. Or that it was easier than I expected, my opponent should really have posed me more problems. It helps.with my mental stability so that good and bad times remain the same attitude wise. It sounds like modesty, and in some way it is, but it is really a way to make sure you don't pressure yourself unreasonably with stupid expectations that if they don't happen, you panic and lose. Keep the expectations reasonable and aligned with your best motivation and you will always bring your best possible game.

You may not agree but this is how i read Ma Long. You can read him differently.

China Open 2019

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads