Short Topspin Serve with Pendulum Motion

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Guys, a lot of these arguments can be resolved by posting video and focusing on actual serves not arguing forever.

DerEchte has some of the best topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

I use short topspin with sidespin. For me the serve can go longer since topspin wants to go forward. but the first thing is to get good spin and less speed. While the spin will make the ball want to go forward, the spin will also keep the ball from being hit fast so you will get a slower serve and people just assume that a slow short serve is backspin below a certain level (or until they play you enough times to refuse to be fooled again). So for this serve, heavy spin is your friend if you use sidespin.

The other thing is to not make the spin so heavy that you hit the ball with too much forward motion. I try to serve the topspin by coming up round the side rather than coming up behind the ball. That said, hitting behind the ball can work if you have good touch and you can serve heavy backspin with similar motion. The spin may not be heavy but if the opponent thinks it is not topspin, that is all you need.

The serve will usually be double bounce short or half long and not extremely short because of the topspin kick. Usually the first bounce may be closer to your end line and further from the net than it would be for a backspin serve.

But in general when serving short, place less focus on where the first bounce is your side and more focus on the opponents side and it should be close to the net on the opponent's side if you want the topspin serve to stay short unless it has strong sidespin. If you manage to get the ball close to the net on the opponents side, where the first bounce is on your side is an interesting footnote but mostly unimportant.
 
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Half long can be 2X or 1X. Short serve can bounce twice or 3 X. It is kind of easy to serve HL no or less spin but difficult to do variations with consistency for intermediate level. I can't do it consistently enough.
Ok, I would never call a double bounce serve half-long so I go with this tabletennisdailyacademy description: "a half long ball is one which bounces once and then drops just off the end of the table"

In my book a half long is 1X and always loopable, although in some cases it can be quite difficult. Anything double bounce or more is a short serve. That is how I and people I play with look at it.

Anyway, interesting to note. I wasn't aware that there may be several different definitions. But back to this thread, would surely be nice to see some good short topspin servers and the technique behind it. I need to improve those aswell :)
 
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Guys, a lot of these arguments can be resolved by posting video and focusing on actual serves not arguing forever.

DerEchte has some of the best topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

I use short topspin with sidespin. For me the serve can go longer since topspin wants to go forward. but the first thing is to get good spin and less speed. While the spin will make the ball want to go forward, the spin will also keep the ball from being hit fast so you will get a slower serve and people just assume that a slow short serve is backspin below a certain level (or until they play you enough times to refuse to be fooled again). So for this serve, heavy spin is your friend if you use sidespin.

The other thing is to not make the spin so heavy that you hit the ball with too much forward motion. I try to serve the topspin by coming up round the side rather than coming up behind the ball. That said, hitting behind the ball can work if you have good touch and you can serve heavy backspin with similar motion. The spin may not be heavy but if the opponent thinks it is not topspin, that is all you need.

The serve will usually be double bounce short or half long and not extremely short because of the topspin kick. Usually the first bounce may be closer to your end line and further from the net than it would be for a backspin serve.

But in general when serving short, place less focus on where the first bounce is your side and more focus on the opponents side and it should be close to the net on the opponent's side if you want the topspin serve to stay short unless it has strong sidespin. If you manage to get the ball close to the net on the opponents side, where the first bounce is on your side is an interesting footnote but mostly unimportant.

Exactly.
At least we have here One /1/ player with enough expertise to make the right interpretation.
/Well, Der_Echte is all above :)/.
 
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Ok, I would never call a double bounce serve half-long so I go with this tabletennisdailyacademy description: "a half long ball is one which bounces once and then drops just off the end of the table"

In my book a half long is 1X and always loopable, although in some cases it can be quite difficult. Anything double bounce or more is a short serve. That is how I and people I play with look at it.



Anyway, interesting to note. I wasn't aware that there may be several different definitions. But back to this thread, would surely be nice to see some good short topspin servers and the technique behind it. I need to improve those aswell :)

I don't pay much attention to the definition. To me any serves with enough spins, low, and close to the edge after 1st bounce is HL or maybe HS/L serve. One must be a very good player to serve or return effectively such serve. Many people define it just for the purpose of teaching and training which I find not useful at all.
 
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I don't pay much attention to the definition. To me any serves with enough spins, low, and close to the edge after 1st bounce is HL or maybe HS/L serve. One must be a very good player to serve or return effectively such serve. Many people define it just for the purpose of teaching and training which I find not useful at all.
Your choice. I think it is a good definition, both for teaching, training and to avoid confusion in forums like this. I find it also useful for clarity: double bounce or more being a short serve, is very simple and clear. I have spent a lot of time on becoming better on looping half long serves, this includes reading when the serve may be "just" long. This has given me very good results. Not being a very good player at all, maybe intermediate at best.

So, we can agree do disagree. I guess that from now I will possibly write double bounce short or single bounce half-long to avoid discussions like this.
 
I feel that the OP asked about how to do a short topspin serve, not what the defintion is.

Yes, and I said that I doubt that it can be done in the way you described.
If you can, show it. I'll be glad to get that too.
You're the coach, we are the trainee.
 
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I think that Lula actually described in #6 on how to serve this kind of serve pretty well. It was the essence of this serve in two sentences. But sure thing, I do not mind to see some examples if possible.
 
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I just meant that i Do not think We give him any real help if we start to discuss the definition instead how to Do as he asks for.

I also think the discussion about What is a short serve is interesting. Like someone Else stated short serves that are very short are actually not very good. Better if they bounce a little longer so the second bounce is just on the table or a little out of the table. Harder for the opponent to make a decision, to play short and you Do not need so much spin to fool them.

The topspin needed are also not really so much. Just enough so the opponent thinks it is less topspin or thinks that they are some other spin in the serve. To try to serve to win points today straight off the serve is difficult.

Haha, i do not think We should focus to much on who is a coach or not. I feel the longer i am playing or coaching tabletennis the more i feel that everything is pretty subjective, there are not many rigth or wrongs because players Do stuff well But sometimes very differently. The technique and strokes Do not need to be perfect, many Times it is proably better to become the best with how you play at the moment than change everything. And serving especially is barely anything i teach because i feel it is mostly about practice to learn for yourself. Alot of touch and training behing good serves.
 
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DerEchte has some of the best topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

.. for somebody who has been on the receiving end of quite a few and so far has managed to flick one or two so far .. I have to wholeheartedly support this statement.. I wanted to jump in with two cents then saw der's post and kept my mouth shut seeing nobody is paying any attention to his advice...
 
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.. for somebody who has been on the receiving end of quite a few and so far has managed to flick one or two so far .. I have to wholeheartedly support this statement.. I wanted to jump in with two cents then saw der's post and kept my mouth shut seeing nobody is paying any attention to his advice...

I Will be so rude and say that they are not so good if you read them correct and see that it is topspin. But it must be alot of spin if you read topspin and still miss.
 
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NextLevel said:
DerEchte has some of the (EDIT) not so impressive looking (END EDIT) topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

I use short topspin with sidespin... So for this serve, heavy spin is your friend if you use sidespin.

The other thing is to not make the spin so heavy that you hit the ball with too much forward motion. I try to serve the topspin by coming up round the side rather than coming up behind the ball. That said, hitting behind the ball can work if you have good touch and you can serve heavy backspin with similar motion. The spin may not be heavy but if the opponent thinks it is not topspin, that is all you need.

The serve will usually be double bounce short or half long and not extremely short because of the topspin kick. Usually the first bounce may be closer to your end line and further from the net than it would be for a backspin serve.

But in general when serving short, place less focus on where the first bounce is your side and more focus on the opponents side and it should be close to the net on the opponent's side if you want the topspin serve to stay short unless it has strong sidespin. If you manage to get the ball close to the net on the opponents side, where the first bounce is on your side is an interesting footnote but mostly unimportant.


I am just a monkey making too much dirty sound (end Manu Chao mode)

NL's short heavy side is a good variation to have. You need a wide variety of serves. Some opponents are somehow just too good vs some of you main money making serves. Some people struggle vs heavy side.

NL's concept of hitting behind the ball is right... it is tough. I chicken out (USA expression for losing courage) and play it safer... I impact ball behind and on the side for safety and consistency. One day I will put in the time to use a different impact. For now, I play it high percentage.

As much as I try to get it short, if my spin is heavier, I get more half long... which isn't too bad, it is also a tough ball. The main thing for me is to make that serve SNEEKY... meaning to surprise or deceive opponent on the spin. You do that, and you can get away with it being longer, often that works in your favor if opponent mis-reads and is too aggressive. I like using aggression against opponent. That allows me to win points without taking too much risk. I play high risk on offense enough as it is already, I need balance in my game.

Like NL is saying in the bold letters, I like using this concept. If you focus too much on exactly where the first bounce lands, you lose too much quality of your serve. (At least it works that way for me) As I am about to impact the ball, I am only concerned with keeping loose grip, good timing, and visualize the ball going over the net low and first bounce on other side being with in the first 20% of the table by the net (that is 1 foot for USA folks). If I manage to do that, I tend to have higher success. Since I am a monkey with ADD, I do not accomplish that as much as I should.

If you manage to get a vid on me doing my attempted 50/50 short topspin serve in a match, the serve itself does not look very impressive. There is not a ton of spin on it and the ball is more than millimeters over the net. What one should look at in any match vid of mine is what serves I had been using and when I decide to pull out the short topspin. That should tell a story.

Still, my goal on a short or half long topspin serve isn't to over power opponent on spin, I want to slide that serve in there like a spiked drink - make it so opponent is not realizing what happened, then let it hit them for a KO. Even with light topspin, you can get errors or a good high ball to power away. If you can do that to opponent twice in a game and they cannot adjust, you have extra ace and face cards hidden in your sleeve. When opponent knows what is gunna happen to them when that serve goes off their bat, it is a huge edge in the mental warfare.

The keys to my short topspin serve are to use same serve motion and arm slot, make it look as much as the underspin serve as possible, stay loose, visualize where ball will land on other side, and be ready to pounce.

My objective is not to make a heavy spin, but to change the spin unknowingly or at a minimum, cause opponent to hesitate. That variation will be enough to get a high percentage chance.

We can talk about this tech spec and that, but I am not good enough to do all that. I try to keep the serve as simple and controlled high percentage as I can. One day I will be good enough to mess around and do hat everyone else is talking about. For now, I try to be simply an effective salesman of underwear.

That is another American expression. If you really did a great job of selling something to some, especially something they didn't need, and do it smoothly... then in USA we say you could have sold him his underwear.
 
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Lula said:
I Will be so rude and say that they are not so good if you read them correct and see that it is topspin. But it must be alot of spin if you read topspin and still miss.

Lula is NOT rude and should have more privilege than Der_Echte for stepping into a thread.

Of course Lula is right, if opponent can see the ball well and be ready, that opponent can make my life tough and make me regret my choice of serve. (But my success on that serve if opponent reads it does not come from a lot of spin)

Some opponents will read the topspin, on my short serve, but do a few things to make errors or give me the ball to crush. If opponent is too eager, then they can mis-time or play it too strong. That happens when I get them on that serve a few times and they want to crush it SO BAD it burns them. Sometimes, opponent see a give-away sign or read a tendency, so a light goes on and they go into attack mode... but something in my serve makes them mis-time the shot. Sometimes, an opponent realizes the spin a micro second to late and is off time on the shot.

Sometimes, I add corkscrew spin to make the bounce more severe to the side suddenly. That variation helps me out a lot.

The ones who see it, then step in to take the ball on the rise around or below net high can punish me on my short topspin serve.

However, the success of the serve is choosing an effective time for that serve and "sell" the serve. The same concepts of variation from no-spin to under, or from under to near-dead apply. It is a matter of variation and getting opponent to see it too late or not at all.

If you can get opponent to not realize what is going on, then you found a re-useable tool of psychological warfare.
 
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I just meant that i Do not think We give him any real help if we start to discuss the definition instead how to Do as he asks for.

I also think the discussion about What is a short serve is interesting. Like someone Else stated short serves that are very short are actually not very good. Better if they bounce a little longer so the second bounce is just on the table or a little out of the table. Harder for the opponent to make a decision, to play short and you Do not need so much spin to fool them.

The topspin needed are also not really so much. Just enough so the opponent thinks it is less topspin or thinks that they are some other spin in the serve. To try to serve to win points today straight off the serve is difficult.

Haha, i do not think We should focus to much on who is a coach or not. I feel the longer i am playing or coaching tabletennis the more i feel that everything is pretty subjective, there are not many rigth or wrongs because players Do stuff well But sometimes very differently. The technique and strokes Do not need to be perfect, many Times it is proably better to become the best with how you play at the moment than change everything. And serving especially is barely anything i teach because i feel it is mostly about practice to learn for yourself. Alot of touch and training behing good serves.

What I highlight in BOLD of Lula's post are exactly the concepts I like to use.

It is great to get winners from the serves, but a bad deal to expect that.

It is not how much spin you use, but making the opponent NOT notice your variation. The amount of spin needed is not so heavy, what is important is the kind of serves you used before, changing it up, and making it look similar. It is all in the sales job.

The second bolded part of Lula's quote (needing less spin that you think) is the essence of my success.
 
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I get what Lula is saying about players needing to practice and discover for themselves, but there are many technical aspects of serving that players really need to learn before going into hardcore practice... or their practice will be garbage and only re-enforce ineffective things.

In 2007, I had a chance to be on the east coast when I was a recreational player. Forum member BOGEYHUNTER was around my current play level back then (now is 2200-2300s) and gave me some essential concepts on how to serve short, how to use same motion, how to make a whip, how to control bat angle, how to use touch, where to land ball, when to use a serve, and how to sell it with after motions.

I had maybe a 30 minute session maybe 1-2 times. That was enough for me later (when I was in a remote Army camp in Iraq) to experiment and practice a few minutes a day for a year. I gained 2 full levels doing just that as a rec player.

It is regrettable that Bogeyhunter does not post on TT forums as much as he did 10-15 years ago.
 
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I haven't practiced serves in a while but in general your serve form needs work. Maybe I will do a newer video but here is my old practice video with me mixing up the spins.

https://youtu.be/s0WNWtRCCIw?t=30

Most of the double bounce short serves are topspin but not all.
 
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Like NL is saying in the bold letters, I like using this concept. If you focus too much on exactly where the first bounce lands, you lose too much quality of your serve. (At least it works that way for me) As I am about to impact the ball, I am only concerned with keeping loose grip, good timing, and visualize the ball going over the net low and first bounce on other side being with in the first 20% of the table by the net (that is 1 foot for USA folks). If I manage to do that, I tend to have higher success. Since I am a monkey with ADD, I do not accomplish that as much as I should.
Totally agree with this, I never think about where the first bounce on my side is but the visualization has always helped me a lot with improving my serves. At least for me, this concept has worked pretty well when trying to improve. Not only on serves, but technique in general. Actually in other sports too.

Thanks for all the great input in this thread.
 
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