Why doesn't the IITF have a ratings system?

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I'm familiar with the ELO rating system that the USATT uses, because I used to work in the chess world. The international organization (FIDE) as well as many national organizations, such as the United States Chess Federation, use ELO rating systems. Standards and rating formulas differ, but the equivalences are well known. As an example, USCF ratings are generally 50-100 points higher than FIDE ratings. For class restrictions and pairings, U.S. tournament directors have discretion on what ratings to assign foreign players who haven't played in U.S. tournaments. For example a foreign player with a FIDE rating of 2480 and no U.S. rating would most likely be denied entry to an under 2500 U.S tournament; especially if big money were involved.

I see that the ITTF has a rankings system, but not a ratings system. Why is that?
 
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They don't want to be held accountable ?

Not sure exactly what you mean. Do you think it would be too weird of a situation and embarrassing to the ITTF, if some player ranked #4 would be rated higher than the #1 ranked player - assuming they kept both systems?
 
Hi,
I play both > Chess and Table Tennis :) And I also find it hard that ITTF dont have a international "elo" system for theirs players. I think Pro Tennis ( Nadal & Co ) is planing to change theirs ranking system to a ELO system ...
I am going to the European Veterans Championships in Budapest next week and are paired with 3 other players and I dont know theirs ranking > Hopless ...
 
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Until recently, the ITTF did in fact employ a ratings system. Sometime in the last few years they moved to a rankings system. I always thought it was to encourage top-level players to play more tournaments as now the ranking system takes into account your best last 8(?) tournaments in the previous 12 months. If that was indeed their rationale for moving to a ranking system, then it appears to be working. I can't remember top-level players such as Ma Long playing so many tournaments so frequently before.

Just want to add that I do see the value in a ratings system. We use Ratings Central and I find it really useful and interesting. It's also a more accurate way of measuring strength, in my opinion.
 
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The ITTF used the ELO rating until the end of 2017. Starting 2018, they've moved to the merit-based ranking, which is used by ATP(1973)/WTA(1975) and BWF(2007).

Talks of the ranking system reform began as early as 2014. Even before that, there had been an ongoing dialog in which the Athletes' Commission proposed for a further reduction in points deducted for a loss. The ITTF also wanted to encourage players to participate in the World Tour, in order to attract more sponsorships.

Timeline of the events.
 
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The ITTF used the ELO rating until the end of 2017. Starting 2018, they've moved to the merit-based ranking, which is used by ATP(1973)/WTA(1975) and BWF(2007).

Timeline of the events.

Talks of the ranking system reform began as early as 2014. Even before that, there had been an ongoing dialog in which the Athletes' Commission proposed for a further reduction in points deducted for a loss. The ITTF also wanted to encourage players to participate in the World Tour, in order to attract more sponsorships. .

Very informative.

Before I criticize the current ranking system, I want to thank all sponsors and those involved with obtaining sponsorship. Even if it is 100% clear that the current ranking system is more mathematically flawed than other ranking or rating systems, if the system is responsible for increased prizes and increased popularity, then it should stay in place.

Here are some problems:

If two players in the main draw of a world tour event both win at least one match and then are eliminated in the same round, they will receive an equal number of ranking points, even if the average rankings of one players opponents was much higher than the other players. That isn't fair. The player with the harder draw should be compensated accordingly. Also, players should lose points when they lose matches.

To be fair, there is big problem with the ELO rating system. It has to do with different pools of players. As an example, I knew a man who established a 2100 USCF (United States Chess Federation) rating and kept it for nearly a decade. He played in a big city which had a large pool of players; many local and many from other parts of the country and other parts of the world. He moved to a much smaller city that had a small pool of mostly local players. He was of the strongest and most active. Within a year, he raised he rating to over 2300, without improving his skills.

The funniest example of deliberate chess ratings manipulation was from a man named Claude Bloodgood, who was incarcerated for life for having killed his mother. He apparently had some funds and registered a number of fellow prisoners for USCF memberships. He organized sanctioned tournaments and bribed some players to deliberately lose to a few select individuals, in order to artificially inflate their ratings. He then played thousands of games with the higher rated players and won them all. By 1996, Claude achieved a rating of 2759, which was the second highest in the country! He was technically eligible to play in the next U.S. Championship, but wasn't invited for obvious reasons.

I can't see too much of this nonsense occurring in the Table Tennis world, but there can be a danger of inflated ELO ratings in some regions if they have small player pools and enough tournaments are sanctioned. This could potentially adversely affect tournaments where eligibility and seeding is based on ratings.

I'm ending my post/rant with more criticism of the current ITTF ranking system: For the first two months of 2018, Ding Ning was ranked #21. That was absurd - she was clearly at least a top 5 player.
 
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Having for years observed USA posters' obsession with ratings both of themselves and other players, I really hope that it does not become popular in the UK.

Actually, in the USA, the ratings, due to the players obsessions, reduce participation in tournaments by adults who are concerned with losing rating points.
 
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Actually, in the USA, the ratings, due to the players obsessions, reduce participation in tournaments by adults who are concerned with losing rating points.

That is indeed quite sad. @ the previous UK based poster, we Americans like numbers. If friend is rated 2133 and I work hard to get to 2150, it is a good feeling.
 
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Very informative.

Before I criticize the current ranking system, I want to thank all sponsors and those involved with obtaining sponsorship. Even if it is 100% clear that the current ranking system is more mathematically flawed than other ranking or rating systems, if the system is responsible for increased prizes and increased popularity, then it should stay in place.

Here are some problems:

If two players in the main draw of a world tour event both win at least one match and then are eliminated in the same round, they will receive an equal number of ranking points, even if the average rankings of one players opponents was much higher than the other players. That isn't fair. The player with the harder draw should be compensated accordingly. Also, players should lose points when they lose matches.

To be fair, there is big problem with the ELO rating system. It has to do with different pools of players. As an example, I knew a man who established a 2100 USCF (United States Chess Federation) rating and kept it for nearly a decade. He played in a big city which had a large pool of players; many local and many from other parts of the country and other parts of the world. He moved to a much smaller city that had a small pool of mostly local players. He was of the strongest and most active. Within a year, he raised he rating to over 2300, without improving his skills.

The funniest example of deliberate chess ratings manipulation was from a man named Claude Bloodgood, who was incarcerated for life for having killed his mother. He apparently had some funds and registered a number of fellow prisoners for USCF memberships. He organized sanctioned tournaments and bribed some players to deliberately lose to a few select individuals, in order to artificially inflate their ratings. He then played thousands of games with the higher rated players and won them all. By 1996, Claude achieved a rating of 2759, which was the second highest in the country! He was technically eligible to play in the next U.S. Championship, but wasn't invited for obvious reasons.

I can't see too much of this nonsense occurring in the Table Tennis world, but there can be a danger of inflated ELO ratings in some regions if they have small player pools and enough tournaments are sanctioned. This could potentially adversely affect tournaments where eligibility and seeding is based on ratings.

I'm ending my post/rant with more criticism of the current ITTF ranking system: For the first two months of 2018, Ding Ning was ranked #21. That was absurd - she was clearly at least a top 5 player.

No system is going to get you everything you want, you need to decide what you are trying to achieve and see which goals are more important. No system is beyond criticism. Are you trying to ensure people play to maintain rankings or trying to measure player strength more accurately ?
 
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I guess you can just use both.

The existing ranking system can still be used for all functional uses of ranking (eg seeding) and then also have an ELO for people who want a more accurate measure of ability/form.

I think people have unofficially constructed ELO rankings for players (all you need would be a starting time and win/loss records for all players).

Honestly, for all the flak the new ranking system has taken. If we take into consideration that ITTF has to actually USE the ranking system for seeding/invitation it's probably best that they don't use ELO. It does make sense that a more functionally useful system is used over a more 'accurate' measure.

It also makes sense that ITTF doesn't also keep a second ranking system that's not actually being used for anything.

There's no reason we can't have an ELO on top, that's just not used for any functional purpose. An ELO ranking is something fans can construct from match history, it doesn't require any sort of official involvement.
 
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I guess you can just use both.

The existing ranking system can still be used for all functional uses of ranking (eg seeding) and then also have an ELO for people who want a more accurate measure of ability/form.

I think people have unofficially constructed ELO rankings for players (all you need would be a starting time and win/loss records for all players).

Honestly, for all the flak the new ranking system has taken. If we take into consideration that ITTF has to actually USE the ranking system for seeding/invitation it's probably best that they don't use ELO. It does make sense that a more functionally useful system is used over a more 'accurate' measure.

It also makes sense that ITTF doesn't also keep a second ranking system that's not actually being used for anything.

There's no reason we can't have an ELO on top, that's just not used for any functional purpose. An ELO ranking is something fans can construct from match history, it doesn't require any sort of official involvement.

Anyone can maintain an ELO system. Ratings central exists if someone wants to put in the results. This has been my position forever because I was a victim of the lack of participation driven by the old system when China didn't send any players to the World Cup in Philadelphia. The new system has encouraged top players to play far more often. We would never have seen Timo play this much under the old system.
 
I doubt it's practical - imagine complaining among fans (and perhaps players): "Why is player A seeded here, while this 'other' rating says he is stronger?!!! Conspiracy!".

Just be transparent that one ranking system is used for seeding, the other is to better indicate "how well someone is playing".
And that the system actually used for seeding is used to encourage players to actually go play tournaments.

People will complain anyway, but as long as you are clear on why players are seeded as they are, you can safely ignore the complaints of people who... don't know how.... systems work?
 
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Very informative.

Before I criticize the current ranking system, I want to thank all sponsors and those involved with obtaining sponsorship. Even if it is 100% clear that the current ranking system is more mathematically flawed than other ranking or rating systems, if the system is responsible for increased prizes and increased popularity, then it should stay in place.

Here are some problems:

If two players in the main draw of a world tour event both win at least one match and then are eliminated in the same round, they will receive an equal number of ranking points, even if the average rankings of one players opponents was much higher than the other players. That isn't fair. The player with the harder draw should be compensated accordingly. Also, players should lose points when they lose matches.

To be fair, there is big problem with the ELO rating system. It has to do with different pools of players. As an example, I knew a man who established a 2100 USCF (United States Chess Federation) rating and kept it for nearly a decade. He played in a big city which had a large pool of players; many local and many from other parts of the country and other parts of the world. He moved to a much smaller city that had a small pool of mostly local players. He was of the strongest and most active. Within a year, he raised he rating to over 2300, without improving his skills.

The funniest example of deliberate chess ratings manipulation was from a man named Claude Bloodgood, who was incarcerated for life for having killed his mother. He apparently had some funds and registered a number of fellow prisoners for USCF memberships. He organized sanctioned tournaments and bribed some players to deliberately lose to a few select individuals, in order to artificially inflate their ratings. He then played thousands of games with the higher rated players and won them all. By 1996, Claude achieved a rating of 2759, which was the second highest in the country! He was technically eligible to play in the next U.S. Championship, but wasn't invited for obvious reasons.

I can't see too much of this nonsense occurring in the Table Tennis world, but there can be a danger of inflated ELO ratings in some regions if they have small player pools and enough tournaments are sanctioned. This could potentially adversely affect tournaments where eligibility and seeding is based on ratings.

I'm ending my post/rant with more criticism of the current ITTF ranking system: For the first two months of 2018, Ding Ning was ranked #21. That was absurd - she was clearly at least a top 5 player.


Agreed to your criticism. The aim of the ITTF’s rating system is not to have better pairings or seeding, but to avoid two, or any, Chinese players in finals.

In the Qatar Open last year, Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen had to play the qualifying matches in the singles.

In the singles of the WTTC Budapest this year, all four Chinese players crowded in the upper half, only Xu Xin in the lower half.

As to encouraging more participation of the pro tours, the frequency of the tours is unnecessarily high. In this year, 4 months have 3 times each, 1 month 4 times, 2 months 5 times each. I feel tired even as a viewer.
 
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Agreed to your criticism. The aim of the ITTF’s rating system is not to have better pairings or seeding, but to avoid two, or no, Chinese players in finals.

In the Qatar Open last year, Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen had to play the qualifying matches in the singles.

In the singles of the WTTC Budapest this year, all four Chinese players crowded in the upper half, only Xu Xin in the lower half.

As to encouraging more participation of the pro tours, the frequency of the tours is unnecessarily high. In this year, 4 months have 3 times each, 1 month 4 times, 2 months 5 times each. I feel tired even as a viewer.
\

Maybe if you lived in the cities where the tours were held and got to see your favorite players, you may feel differently. In any case, it is also about getting people opportunities to play and rewarding the people who play.
 
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