Why doesn't the IITF have a ratings system?

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Maybe if you lived in the cities where the tours were held and got to see your favorite players, you may feel differently. In any case, it is also about getting people opportunities to play and rewarding the people who play.

My place is about one or two years a time. Mainly I see them online.

The monetary reward of those tours perhaps isn't good? The players mainly rely on the league matches to make money, like Mitzutani in Russia. Many players suffer form injuries due to the over frequent matches.

However, the tours did let me watch Aruna Quadri. Is he from your place? He's so talented. If he had got training in China since his childhood, he should have been unbelievably formidable.
 
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Is ratings central still being updated? It used to be an accurate measure of players strength. Now it lists Fang Bo at no.1 and Ni Xia Lian at no.2, and the most recent tournament updated was back in 2017

Ni Xia Lian is 55 years old already. :eek: It shows the players' quality of the old generations.
 
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My place is about one or two years a time. Mainly I see them online.

The monetary reward of those tours perhaps isn't good? The players mainly rely on the league matches to make money, like Mitzutani in Russia. Many players suffer form injuries due to the over frequent matches.

However, the tours did let me watch Aruna Quadri. Is he from your place? He's so talented. If he had got training in China since his childhood, he should have been unbelievably formidable.

Yes, Quadri is Nigerian.

Training in China is overrated there are good and bad coaches everywhere. The real benefit in China is just living around good players. Kids copy TT like it is a language.

I live in the US and we don't get to see many players on tour but when we once had an opportunity, the Chinese didn't come partly because it had no impact on their ranking. So for me, I like the new system because it encourages players to play and builds a sellable product.

The prize money isn't great but it is hard to get money I'd you can't guarantee stars. T2 is a step in that direction so let's see.
 
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No system is going to get you everything you want, you need to decide what you are trying to achieve and see which goals are more important. No system is beyond criticism. Are you trying to ensure people play to maintain rankings or trying to measure player strength more accurately ?

It's clear from my follow-ups that I like the ELO system, but didn't start the thread to claim that it was better than the current ranking system. I pointed out problems with both. I'm looking for both accuracy and fairness. Players shouldn't have to play to maintain ranking positions or rating points - if it is known that they haven't lost playing strength, their inactivity alone shouldn't cause their ranking or rating to go down.

Agreed to your criticism. The aim of the ITTF’s rating system is not to have better pairings or seeding, but to avoid two, or any, Chinese players in finals.


In the Qatar Open last year, Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen had to play the qualifying matches in the singles.


In the singles of the WTTC Budapest this year, all four Chinese players crowded in the upper half, only Xu Xin in the lower half.


As to encouraging more participation of the pro tours, the frequency of the tours is unnecessarily high. In this year, 4 months have 3 times each, 1 month 4 times, 2 months 5 times each. I feel tired even as a viewer.

Table Tennis isn't the only sport with very bad pairing policies. I remember a number of years ago, Serena Williams had left the game of tennis for a while. By the time she returned, her world ranking had dropped considerably due to inactivity. Serena came back and entered a tournament. The organizers strictly followed the seeding rules and didn't give her a seed due to her ranking. The problem was that her fitness and skills hadn't deteriorated - she was still one of (1-5 or so) the best players in the world. Because the pairing rules were based on seedings, Serena had to play a top seed in the first round! That wasn't fair to either of the players and screwed up other pairings as well. Pairings in sports such as Table Tennis and Tennis should be used to try and ensure that the two best players meet in the finals. Best players should be defined as of the start of the tournament. Defining best by adding other factors (playing and placing in more events than stronger players than you) hurts the purpose and makes tournaments worse. Seeding and pairing rules need to be flexible. If some player would normally be seeded #3, but it is known that they have a very sore ankle, have the committee use their handicapping skills (or hire people with those skills) to decide how many seeds to drop the player.

I get the point about the current system being designed to encourage participation - but at what cost?

Having Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen play each other in a qualifying match is absurd.
 
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It's clear from my follow-ups that I like the ELO system, but didn't start the thread to claim that it was better than the current ranking system. I pointed out problems with both. I'm looking for both accuracy and fairness. Players shouldn't have to play to maintain ranking positions or rating points - if it is known that they haven't lost playing strength, their inactivity alone shouldn't cause their ranking or rating to go down.



Table Tennis isn't the only sport with very bad pairing policies. I remember a number of years ago, Serena Williams had left the game of tennis for a while. By the time she returned, her world ranking had dropped considerably due to inactivity. Serena came back and entered a tournament. The organizers strictly followed the seeding rules and didn't give her a seed due to her ranking. The problem was that her fitness and skills hadn't deteriorated - she was still one of (1-5 or so) the best players in the world. Because the pairing rules were based on seedings, Serena had to play a top seed in the first round! That wasn't fair to either of the players and screwed up other pairings as well. Pairings in sports such as Table Tennis and Tennis should be used to try and ensure that the two best players meet in the finals. Best players should be defined as of the start of the tournament. Defining best by adding other factors (playing and placing in more events than stronger players than you) hurts the purpose and makes tournaments worse. Seeding and pairing rules need to be flexible. If some player would normally be seeded #3, but it is known that they have a very sore ankle, have the committee use their handicapping skills (or hire people with those skills) to decide how many seeds to drop the player.

I get the point about the current system being designed to encourage participation - but at what cost?

Having Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen play each other in a qualifying match is absurd.
I'm not sure you get it since you haven't proposed a system that solves the problem yet you continually castigate the current system despite the fact that it has so far solved the problem it was designed to solve. You can't get accuracy and fairness if you pretend that your definitions are not in conflict with what is being prioritized.

I prefer to measure performance, not strength. And I have zero problem with players not been seeded according to strength since performance tends to approximate strength. The problem with measuring strength is that if you do so, and people keep their strength measurements without actively playing, it encourages them not to play unless they want to. Even the ITF/ATP/WTA have minimum participation requirements in addition to performance based systems.

The rules were followed for Serena, but if sometimes, players get injury protected rankings for a few tournaments in tennis. I think the issue back then which may have been fixed now was that pregnancy or motherhood was not a protected rankings event, and it might be now. But even then, complaining that you just want your own rules rather than a system does have its risks, doesn't it? What if Serena played badly? Did the system then get it right? It can't be all about one player like Ma Long - there are many times the system gets it right (Pitchford over CNT Xue Fei) and then people just ignore that.

Right now, there is a mild controversy in that Federer is being seeded #2 over Nadal because of grass performance. Again, there is no perfect system. The most important thing is to remember what is given priority and to maintain the system. If you complain about the system without consistently referring to the goals of the system, it isn't clear you are really dealing with the constraints inherent in the problem.
 
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It's clear from my follow-ups that I like the ELO system, but didn't start the thread to claim that it was better than the current ranking system. I pointed out problems with both. I'm looking for both accuracy and fairness. Players shouldn't have to play to maintain ranking positions or rating points - if it is known that they haven't lost playing strength, their inactivity alone shouldn't cause their ranking or rating to go down.



Table Tennis isn't the only sport with very bad pairing policies. I remember a number of years ago, Serena Williams had left the game of tennis for a while. By the time she returned, her world ranking had dropped considerably due to inactivity. Serena came back and entered a tournament. The organizers strictly followed the seeding rules and didn't give her a seed due to her ranking. The problem was that her fitness and skills hadn't deteriorated - she was still one of (1-5 or so) the best players in the world. Because the pairing rules were based on seedings, Serena had to play a top seed in the first round! That wasn't fair to either of the players and screwed up other pairings as well. Pairings in sports such as Table Tennis and Tennis should be used to try and ensure that the two best players meet in the finals. Best players should be defined as of the start of the tournament. Defining best by adding other factors (playing and placing in more events than stronger players than you) hurts the purpose and makes tournaments worse. Seeding and pairing rules need to be flexible. If some player would normally be seeded #3, but it is known that they have a very sore ankle, have the committee use their handicapping skills (or hire people with those skills) to decide how many seeds to drop the player.

I get the point about the current system being designed to encourage participation - but at what cost?

Having Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen play each other in a qualifying match is absurd.


It seems that the ITTF not only wants TT playing like tennis, but also the bad pairing. :D
 
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Yes, Quadri is Nigerian.

Training in China is overrated there are good and bad coaches everywhere. The real benefit in China is just living around good players. Kids copy TT like it is a language.

I live in the US and we don't get to see many players on tour but when we once had an opportunity, the Chinese didn't come partly because it had no impact on their ranking. So for me, I like the new system because it encourages players to play and builds a sellable product.

The prize money isn't great but it is hard to get money I'd you can't guarantee stars. T2 is a step in that direction so let's see.


Yes, there’re many bad coaches in China also, especially in the private sector. However, the good players in China come from a source. There’s a reason why China has been having many good players for decades and other countries not. Europe had many good players in the 80s, but it couldn’t last. :)
 
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