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    1. Top | #21
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      And I don't have time to argue away like you.

      With all due respect, you sound like Jiang Jialiang when he commentates, void of anything tactical, full of cliché, biased AF, and worst of all, so out of touch.

      And yes, I spend plenty of time with my club mates, many of whom are division A, B and C players, some of whom are also certified coaches. Just so you know, pulling ranks on the forum in this day and age won't get you far. Here I have direct quotes from LGL, Yin Xiao and Li Sun.
      okay, to make you happy, this style is 3 years old
      gosh, what a whiner

      what I saw 10 years ago was not such style. KLH must be pissed off
      and every sane person on this forum who witness it all got it wrong, because you know how to quote few people, so you are always right

      where is the emoji to claps hands

      so moving on, so who are you?
      you in HK? I know some high level coaches there, what is your name?
      since my name is public, you want to share your name too?
      Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:03 PM.
      BYE BYE

    2. Top | #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by will_999 View Post
      Wouldnt it be advantageous for someone from the JNT etc to pick up this so called "men's" style to throw a spanner in the works of the CNT?
      I'm sure some women in Japan(and everywhere else) have on a club or provincial level, those players just haven't been able to make it to the top. Some who are making waves do still incorporate elements of the "men's style". It just so far doesn't appear to be worthwhile to adopt the entire style wholesale rather than just add a few tools to the existing meta.

      I'm sure we will continue to see more power creep into the women's game, having more tools at your disposal is always good. It might just be that the women have not found it advantageous as the men have to play that way.

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    4. Top | #23
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by will_999 View Post
      ...Maybe the 3rd/4th balls need to be attacked more aggressively by the women like the men instead of them being a precursor to getting into a fast counter pattern. Wouldnt it be advantageous for someone from the JNT etc to pick up this so called "men's" style to throw a spanner in the works of the CNT?
      Yes, JNT has already done that - Miu Hirano, with the help of Wang Rui(AKA Rui Nakazawa in Japan) and Zhang Cheng. Up until 2017, the CNT women's team had never been in any crisis severe enough to warrant change. They're taking it seriously now.

      This is how Zhang Yining puts it after she won the 2008 Killerspin Holiday Open.

      感觉那天雷振华没有完全把自己调动起来,我又不是太吃他的发球,一打起相持,男孩都耐不住性子,他发完球就想冲死我,前三板就想解决战斗,我稍微把弧线接低一些,他就容易出现无谓失误。
      (I felt that Lei Zhenhua didn't fully mobilize himself that day. I didn't eat his serve that much. Once into the rallies, the boys couldn't help but lose their patience. He wanted to hit past me right after serving, hoping to finish the point on the 3rd ball. I lowered the arc of my returns slightly and he was prone to unforced errors.)

      Back in the early 2000s, there was a major dispute b/w Cai Zhenhua(head coach of the CNT and men's team back then) and Lu Yuansheng(women's head coach back then) over the "masculinization of the female techniques." Rumor has it Lu was against the idea given the amount of stress female players had to endure. Ultimately, Lu took the blame after the team met Waterloo at the hands of South Korea in ATTC 2005.

      1、创新意识不够

        女队自王楠之后在技术上基本就没有什么创新,原本女子男性化是女子乒乓的发展趋势,当时女队出现了张怡宁、郭焱等一批女子男性化打法的运动员,但创新仅停留在表面,因此1999年荷兰世乒赛后,蔡振华曾公开批评陆元盛技术创新不够。此后女队换上了李晓东,虽然在技术创新上有一定的改进,但在处理人际关系上又不佳,因此亚运失败后就匆匆下课。陆元盛重新出山后,在技术创新上依然没有什么大的动作
      (1. Insufficient awareness of innovation

      The women's team basically stopped innovating in techniques after Wang Nan. Originally, masculinization of the women's style was the development trend for women's table tennis. At that time, a group of "male-style" players such as Zhang Yining[TL's note: no kidding] and Guo Yan popped up on the women's team, but the innovation remained superficial. So after the WTTC Netherlands in 1999, Cai Zhenhua publicly criticized Lu Yuansheng for his lack of technical innovation. Since then, the women's team had been headed by Li Xiaodong. Although there had been some progress in technical innovation, he was not good in dealing with interpersonal relationships. Therefore, he resigned after the [2002] Asian Games failure. After Lu Yuansheng was reinstated, there was still no major progress in technical innovation.)

      This is how Li Sun thinks of the application of the male style in an interview after Li Xiaoxia won the WTTC 2013.

      ★李隼认为,女子打法男性化,不仅是指技术方面,“技术一辈子也男性化不了。真正的男性化是指思想方法,解决问题的思路,关键时刻能不能豁得出去。这个得靠平时多练,平时全都练到了,在场上敢出手,胜率肯定就高。”
      (★ Li Sun believes that the masculinization of the women's style is not merely technical, "the techniques will never be masculinized. The real masculinization refers to the way of thinking, the solution to the problem, whether you could brave it out when it's make or break. This requires practicing in usual times. Once it becomes second nature, and you dare to attempt the shots in matches, the winning percentage would definitely be high.")

      Li Sun mentioned the application of the male style at the mental level(女子技術意識男性化) again in March this year in preparation for the WTTC 2019.

      中国女乒主教练李隼表示:“这次男女队在一起练,我觉得氛围非常好,这次主要是把女队的很多主力队员都和男队在一起合练,而且比赛在一起打,我觉得这对于女子技术意识男性化帮助非常大,对抗性非常强,整个训练的强度,包括主动意识方面,对抗方面,我觉得效果非常显著。”
      (CNT women's head coach Li Sun stated: "This time the men's and women's team are practicing together, I think the atmosphere is very good. Here, the core players of the women's team are training together with the men's team, and the matches are played together. I think this is very helpful for the masculinization of the women's technical awareness, and the confrontation is very strong. The intensity of the whole training, including the active awareness, and the confrontation, I think the effect is very significant.")

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    6. Top | #24
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hysteresis View Post
      I'm sure some women in Japan(and everywhere else) have on a club or provincial level, those players just haven't been able to make it to the top. Some who are making waves do still incorporate elements of the "men's style". It just so far doesn't appear to be worthwhile to adopt the entire style wholesale rather than just add a few tools to the existing meta.

      I'm sure we will continue to see more power creep into the women's game, having more tools at your disposal is always good. It might just be that the women have not found it advantageous as the men have to play that way.
      you are correct

      The mens style has been around before CNT invented such catch phrase. Its pure propaganda that its Chinese invented and only 3 years old.
      The Chinese actually learnt this style from the Europeans and many young Chinese wanted to mimic them.

      One needs to remember such style for womens play in 38mm/40mm/40+ ball era is very different.
      Since 40+ requires more power to handle, it is more difficult for ethnically Chinese female bodies that are not as built as your western counterparts per se.

      Yes, you get some generation Z that are more muscular and with the likes that CNT has shifted the priority of physical training to higher than another else, shows you how important they are seeing the issues caused by the 40+ balls.
      For example, 2 years prior to the ball change over, they hired a NBA physical trainer to come and train the coaches and the B team. It was one of the first time I heard China using foreigners in such high level capacity.

      Coming back to JNT. JNT has a totally different culture to CNT.
      CNT is a top down approached where JNT is a bottom up approach.
      JNT, the player can appoint his or her own coach and the coach-player interest is 1 on 1.
      CNT, we all know that it is culturally normal for some players to forever only be the "support role"

      Another issue in the CNT is the player from same age 13 to 25 will change coaches so many times - as how the head coach sees fit and where to use this "chess piece"
      in JNT, they don't change coaches as much, and the changes is triggered from the player, not the head coach.

      So as much as how much propaganda you see on the news (fakes news and real news is on the same whatsapp group), CNT will not admit to JNT cultural success as admitting to it will make management loose power.
      CNT has it pros and cons, JNT has its pros and cons.
      CNT is still stronger, but CNTs shortfall is JNT's strength.

      I personally feel the mens style is a must have in womens TT.
      You can also see why both teams have more male training partners than female.

      But it needs to allow the player to adjust naturally. I felt LXX did it very well, she is a gram slam holder and who can deny it is a failure?
      CNT forces way too much changes to the player. Some times is for the good, some times it is just a high risk gamble.
      Its like a Cpen player was forced to change to Jpen for the "greater cause" of the team. The moment that player left the national team, he went back to Cpen.

      So at the end of the day, certain styles is for certain physical attributes and mental attributes.
      Training, adjustments, resource support is then incorporated.

      CNT's failure was not to acknowledge further change and provide equal opportunity for its "support role" players, as it holds onto hierarchy a bit way too much.
      I can't understand why 1 coach has 1 main player and 2 to 4 "support players". If I was such support player, I would feel no matter what I do, I will always be unfairly treated, as I am not on the "favourite" list of my personal coach.

      To me, this is the failure of the Chinese womens team, and we only see it as Japan is edging very closely.
      All this propaganda you see on the news, is just ..... propaganda

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    8. Top | #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      Yes, JNT has already done that - Miu Hirano, with the help of Wang Rui(AKA Rui Nakazawa in Japan) and Zhang Cheng. Up until 2017, the CNT women's team had never been in any crisis severe enough to warrant change. They're taking it seriously now.
      amazing info zeio. No idea that my small "observation" was such a topic that has been around and a phd could be done on it .

    9. Top | #26
      will_999 is offline
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      was Wang Chuqin playing the "womens type" style against LGY yesterday..???

    10. Top | #27
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      Doo Hoi Kem showing some love for the reverse pendulum and CM having some trouble with that serve!

    11. Top | #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by will_999 View Post
      was Wang Chuqin playing the "womens type" style against LGY yesterday..???
      Not from what I can see. That said both T2 website and YT livestreams seem to be disable in Australia, so i've only seen the officially released vid at the end.

      But from what I've seen, he's just playing a little more gingerly, probably around his injury. But watching his footwork, he's not really radically changing his style. He's still moving back after receives/serves quite a long way, he's still dipping down very low to take shots. Both players naturally take the ball quite early anyway compared to the older generation, it just seems like he's struggling to generate the same level of power despite being pretty much in position for it.

    12. Top | #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hysteresis View Post
      Not from what I can see.
      But from what I've seen, he's just playing a little more gingerly, probably around his injury. But watching his footwork, he's not really radically changing his style.
      He seemed to be playing the fast counter style on almost all the points...but LGY was much quicker. Even though WC wasnt having much success, he stuck to the same tactics and eventually lost.

    13. Top | #30
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      because woman tend to keep the ball longer on the table I think occasional TT watcher might like to watch women matches more then men's where you need some more in depth understanding what is what

    14. Top | #31
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      Always seems like there are way more balls bouncing around in the men's game.

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    16. Top | #32
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      A few women on the Tour use the reverse serve e.g Eliza Samara. The reverse requires a better feeling for the ball and as a lot of women play short and sharp shots whilst staying up at the table, the may prefer to use the pendulum serve etc which allows them to quickly go into a ready position.

    17. Top | #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by will_999 View Post
      He seemed to be playing the fast counter style on almost all the points...but LGY was much quicker. Even though WC wasnt having much success, he stuck to the same tactics and eventually lost.
      Again, the dude was playing with injury. I'm surprised he showed up at all.
      Well, at least he still gets 400 free points for losing in the first round.

    18. Top | #34
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      I still remember one of the hottiest in CNT - Li Ju, she pretty much plays a mens style for that era.
      Since then Wang Nan pretty much was pure womens style with Zhang Yining close by
      That is where the little Guo Yue came up with mens style again

      this is like history. maybe some forum members wasn't even born yet and way long before Lgl was in charge of the womens team

    19. Top | #35
      zeio is offline
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      How much harm can bigotry do to a mind? See for yourself. Take it or leave it.

      The partial transcript for LGL's postmatch interview at the ATTC 2017 that I paraphrased in the 1st post.

      https://cn.ittf.com/2017/04/after-attc-liuguoliang/
      “昨天我们也总结到,从几年前我们就在喊“女子技术男性化”,现在看来我们可能口号多于实际,并没有真正做到。正是因为我们这种创新、改变不够,才会在这次比赛当中出现平野这样的情况,感觉是被对手压着打,可以算人家进攻的比例包括在场面上控制住我们。年轻一代的主力陈梦、朱雨玲她们有比李晓霞、丁宁、刘诗雯强吗,她们的战斗力更强了吗?必须得一代比一代强才有希望……女孩子对新鲜事物的接受能力要差一些,她们可能会想,我都已经是世界冠军了,没有必要去承担改变打法的风险,但当她们真正意识到,不改就会落后的时候,她们才会真正突破。这次封闭训练,我会亲自到女队,把先进的理念带过去,但首先,她们必须从心底接受和渴望。”
      ("As mentioned yesterday, we'd been preaching the 'masculinization of the female techniques' over the past few years. Now it seems more like a slogan than practice, as we haven't really achieved it. It is precisely because of insufficient innovation and change that such a situation occurred, where it felt like we were crushed by Hirano. It can be said Hirano had us restrained in terms of attacking percentage. Are the younger key players such as Chen Meng and Zhu Yuling stronger than Li Xiaoxia, Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen? Are they stronger in combat strength? It must be better from generation to generation to stand a chance...Girls have a harder time to accept new things, and they might think, I am already a World Champion, there's no need to bear the risk of changing the style of play, but once they realize that they'll be left behind, only then will they make a real breakthrough. This time for the closed training, I'll go to the women's team and bring the advanced concepts over, but first, they must accept and long from the bottom of their hearts.")

      In Apr 2019, LGL emphasized on the mental aspect instead, just like Li Sun.

      https://sports.163.com/19/0429/16/EDUPAEAO00058782.html
      刘国梁解释道,“我一直强调,女子意识男性化,因为女孩没法像男孩一样打球,但她的思想和手感,可以向男孩靠拢。同时,女孩身上细腻的东西,可以用到男队年轻球员身上,毕竟,这些女运动员都是世界冠军,让这些男队员从女孩身上吸取点经验。”
      ("I have always stressed masculinization of the female mentality, because the girls can't play like the boys, but their thoughts and feelings can be closer to the boy. OTOH, the delicacy of girls can be applied to the younger members of the men's team. These female players are World Champions after all. Let these male players learn from the girls," explained Liu Guoliang.)

      Now, see what others say about Li Ju. There are quite a few such articles pointing that the application of the male style hasn't been adequately implemented over the years.

      https://mall.cnki.net/magazine/Artic...T200817182.htm
      http://sports.sohu.com/20070601/n250353420.shtml
      早在90年代,当时以力量突出的李菊也曾被归纳为带有男性化特点的代表球员,但是李菊只是代表90年代后期的水平,不能就其打法称之为“女子技术男性化”打法。因为李菊当时只是在力量上高于一般的国家队的其它女选手,而且反手的旋转也不是很得心应手,就其心理素质上也不是很过硬,在一些大的比赛中也有因为心理素质原因丢失过一些分数。因此由上特点李菊也只能是“女子技术男性化”的早期试验者,并不能说是代表者。
      (Back in the 90s, Li Ju, outstanding in power at the time, was also classified as a representative player with male characteristics. However, Li Ju only represents the level of the late 90s, and cannot be called "masculinization of the women's techniques" because she was only above the other team members in power, and her backhand spin was not all that solid. Her mental strength was not that strong either, having dropped some points in major competitions. Given the above, Li Ju can only be regarded as an early prototype of "masculinization of the women's techniques" rather than a representative.)

      At the Swedish Open 2018, LGL mentioned DN's "rally defense" couldn't hold out. For the uninformed, rally-defense has been the long-standing style for the CNT - Wang Nan, Zhang Yining, Ding Ning, Zhu Yuling, you name it.



      Last but not least, we have Li Sun saying "Zhang Yining and those before her were all fiddling over the table."


    20. Top | #36
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Press Release = propaganda.
      Its good to listen to news, but I think each forum member needs to have they own wisdom and interpret news accordingly.
      Of course LGL will come up with all these news for defeat.
      But do you see him use such world championship logic on the mens team?

      You see, the biggest problem here is if you want to start comparing generation to generation
      Li Ju was successful in her ERA
      LXX/GY was successful in her ERA
      As generation improves, technical changes occur too.
      Because - different rules, different balls, different equipment, different opponents

      the naive saying of men's style in womens TT was only 3 years old, or the likes of Li Ju as an early protype can be said again in 10 to 20 years later, as there should be non stop progress. But one cannot discredit the history - without history you cannot have present!

      I guess with the same logic, one can say LGL was just an early protype of RPB, he didn't invent it, he wasn't a RPB player?
      Same can be said that KLH was just an early protype of Chinese two wing european looper or Ding Song as a prototype too?

      Just like RPB has been around for decades now, so has men's style.
      and yes, generational changes, the styles has enhanced


      Same logic of what LGL is saying and putting it in himself, should himself is playing today (at a 25 years old) with his style and technique as we know of (as of 38mm era), will be full of defeat and shame. So LGL was just a protype ? or world champion? or what propaganda is trying to brainwash me here?

      Maybe we should go early to the earlier Chinese champs and see if they can survive in today's game?

      Zeio, who has can you quote to deny this now, or do you have something to say from your own mind or are you only able to use 3rd party quotes?
      Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:55 AM.

    21. Top | #37
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      See if you could quote your own statements to support your stance. Oh, you don't like quoting.




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