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    1. Top | #61
      tropical is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis View Post
      I'm not so fussy about the trademark
      but if you want to compare technology, you must atleast compare it and call it correctly.

      I already gave enough examples, maybe Telsa is the best example.
      But yeah, to the layman, they all cars, and they won't understand why the price differnce.

      Maybe OP should of put this topic in the general thread and not equipment thread.
      I sincerely don't think you get the point. He or I can use the word tensor to mean a technology all we like and even you guys are correct in the history of the term you guys CAN'T say we are wrong. I gave you many examples of how a trademark name can become so common and people will use it regardless of how it originally was. I don't know you guys intention in correcting the usage of the term and insisting on its history which we don't give a damn. Thanks for the history lesson so let's move on ok?

    2. Top | #62
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by tropical View Post
      I sincerely don't think you get the point. He or I can use the word tensor to mean a technology all we like and even you guys are correct in the history of the term you guys CAN'T say we are wrong. I gave you many examples of how a trademark name can become so common and people will use it regardless of how it originally was. I don't know you guys intention in correcting the usage of the term and insisting on its history which we don't give a damn. Thanks for the history lesson so let's move on ok?
      Famous quote: "And while that may bother you for whatever reason, it is your problem, not mine."
      BYE BYE

    3. Top | #63
      Jimbob MacInbred is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis View Post
      For ESN, and those 3 companies, I fully agree.
      Other than production, I would say (don't know about Tibhar) but Xiom and Gewo's customer service/feedback is very very good. Especially compared to other brands I know. So I am not surprised that Xiom has already or will enter the top 5 soon (its rubber already features in Japan's top 10), while Gewo is a great prospectus for a future top 5.

      Sad in a way that some traditional European brands are falling out of the race
      But I guess Xerox as big as they were, didn't move with the paradigm shift

      I forgot to mention the Nittaku Fastarc series which are also made by ESN. They are very good too.
      But you are very right about Xiom. They are already well established for such a young company. Nexy is, although they make very interesting blades, unfortunately still way behind Xiom in brand recognition. But after all Xiom belongs to Champion, no? Therefore Xiom has a huge financial advantage over Nexy and even some german brands I would imagine. Xiom is most certainly here to stay...

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    5. Top | #64
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jimbob MacInbred View Post
      I forgot to mention the Nittaku Fastarc series which are also made by ESN. They are very good too.
      But you are very right about Xiom. They are already well established for such a young company. Nexy is, although they make very interesting blades, unfortunately still way behind Xiom in brand recognition. But after all Xiom belongs to Champion, no? Therefore Xiom has a huge financial advantage over Nexy and even some german brands I would imagine. Xiom is most certainly here to stay...
      Correct
      Xiom is a spinoff by Champion.
      They opened up a German office few years back, and the main man there was on this forum. I'm not sure if he still uses it.
      Xiom has also up they level in terms of partnering with top players.
      They also gotten very involved in strong teams in the Chinese national champs
      so indeed they have some financial advantage

      you gotto see the new HQ of Xiom. Its like a silicon valley corporate HQ

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    7. Top | #65
      GusShnaps is offline
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      I have tried the H and M versions as well and I like them very much!
      Pretty spinny and really fast! You don't need to put much effort on your shots, the rubber does a lot of the work for you.

      I've been using them for a while and also preferred the Medium rubber as I felt it was easier to use. Maybe the S version would be good for the backhand?

      I also noticed the glue peeling thing, I removed glue from my mantra M rubber some times. On the first time I decided to reglue, I did feel it was really delicate as many tiny parts of the sponge were ripped out, forming little holes on the surface. On the other times It didn't ruin it though, the sponge was still pretty good.

      Nonetheless, durability is also great! I used a pair for about 6 or 7 months and it's still pretty ok.

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    9. Top | #66
      Airoc is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis View Post
      Never the less, I kindof agree and not agree with you about the Japanese rubber makers.
      Agree in terms of it doesn't seem like they are pioneering any technology and always following
      But when and why did they lose their competitive edge?

      As you will remember, the Tibhar Evolution marketing campaign made the product look like made in Japan, in minute details.

      Some of the first reviews on a German forum read like "Ah, finally a rubber made in Japan, the difference to the ESN bouncy balls is huge."

      Ever since, made in Japan doesn´t stand for any superiority anymore and traditional Japanese brands have rubbers manufactured by ESN to stay competitive, while most German brands have stopped producing rubbers in Japan altogether.

    10. Top | #67
      Jimbob MacInbred is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by RidTheKid View Post
      A non-linear rubber with great catapult effect fall into the category "tensor rubber", at least for me.
      Well, that might actually be one way of describing a Tensor. Quite a few ESN Tensors have a non-linear and very strong spring or catapult effect. That's because a Tensor gets the spring/ catapult from the topsheet as well as the factory boosted sponge. Japanese rubber such as Mantra, Tenergy, Airoc get the spring/ catapult soley from the (porous) sponge.

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    12. Top | #68
      Jimbob MacInbred is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by tropical View Post
      I sincerely don't think you get the point. He or I can use the word tensor to mean a technology all we like and even you guys are correct in the history of the term you guys CAN'T say we are wrong. I gave you many examples of how a trademark name can become so common and people will use it regardless of how it originally was. I don't know you guys intention in correcting the usage of the term and insisting on its history which we don't give a damn. Thanks for the history lesson so let's move on ok?

      You're very welcome. I like history as well. You are certainly free to move on. And even though you and some others don't give a damn, you are still missing the point, it seems.

      Calling a lightweight jacket "Windbreaker" even though it might not have been produced by the trademark holder or calling a cheap tissue "Kleenex" is not quite the same as calling the Mantra a Tensor. Calling pretty much any lightweight jacket "Windbreaker" or calling a no-name tissue "Kleenex", most of us would certainly know what is meant by it. And again, that's not really the point. See, there are all sorts of tissues out there; some are softer, some might smell very nice and so on. But the main purpose (or main feature) of a tissue is still to clean the nose, right?

      But if someone calls the Mantra a Tensor or even Tensor-like, this person is attributing the topsheet of the Mantra some fundemental technological capabilities or features which it (per definition) simply does not have. A Tensor topsheet is high tensioned and gives an additional spring effect, because ESN puts these organic substance between the molecules of the rubber-topsheet. The topsheets of the Mantra, Airoc, Mizuno, Tenergy etc. all have "only" high tensioned topsheets without this additional spring effect; only the sponge of these rubbers is responsible for the spring/ catapult. I do think that this is a fundemental difference between these two types of topsheets and I do not think that this is too hard to understand.

      But let's indeed move on now..

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    14. Top | #69
      mart1nandersson is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jimbob MacInbred View Post
      Well, that might actually be one way of describing a Tensor. Quite a few ESN Tensors have a non-linear and very strong spring or catapult effect. That's because a Tensor gets the spring/ catapult from the topsheet as well as the factory boosted sponge. Japanese rubber such as Mantra, Tenergy, Airoc get the spring/ catapult soley from the (porous) sponge.
      Amazing posts from you. Quality stuff.

      Do you know what makes certain ESN rubbers “fairly” linear? Mainly thinking of Rakza 7 and the Fastarc series. I absolutely detest the more modern rubbers such as Rasanter but can switch between Fastarc and Rozena without any major pain.

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    16. Top | #70
      Jimbob MacInbred is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by mart1nandersson View Post
      Amazing posts from you. Quality stuff.

      Do you know what makes certain ESN rubbers “fairly” linear? Mainly thinking of Rakza 7 and the Fastarc series. I absolutely detest the more modern rubbers such as Rasanter but can switch between Fastarc and Rozena without any major pain.
      Thank you. Unfortunately, I did not study chemical engeneering and I do not work for ESN. But tabletennis rubbers are a very complex product, as we all know. ESN likely has hundreds if not thousands of formulas. i. e. patents in their drawer (same goes for the other companys). Some formulas result in rather linear rubbers such as the Vega Pro and other in wild beasts such as the MX-P or Bluefire M1.

      Factors that possibly play a role are the amount of the organic substance placed between the molecules, if the topesheet uses 100% natural rubber or synthetic rubber (of course different ratios possible, i. e. 80% natural + 20% synthetic), pimple size and structure, size of the pores of the sponge being used, if the sponge gets factory boosted and how much (of course different boosters with (slightly) different effects possible) and other factors as well. So, as I said, both the topsheet and the sponge are very complex products.

    17. Top | #71
      langel is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect View Post
      If a "layman" talks to you about his/her samsung tablet and calls it an Ipad, would you have trouble understanding him?
      I guess you probably will have little trouble understanding him.
      It depends a lot on the purpose of the conversation.
      If its just to describe the general type of the gadget, then usually, but not always, its ok.
      But if the conversation has to be about specifics and problems - then it would be absolutely impossible to get to understandings without defining the correct system - is it Android, or is it iOS, or is it Windoes.

      And here come the same problems with the different rubber systems - Tenergy, Tensor, etc.
      They are different systems with different chemical and physical properties.
      They use different hardness scale.
      They feel very different even when cutting them.
      They give different results with different glues.
      They give very different results with boosters and some would entirely lose their initially intended properties.
      Etc.

      So how to get a good understanding without a propper defining?

    18. Top | #72
      langel is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jimbob MacInbred View Post
      Thank you. Unfortunately, I did not study chemical engeneering and I do not work for ESN. But tabletennis rubbers are a very complex product, as we all know. ESN likely has hundreds if not thousands of formulas. i. e. patents in their drawer (same goes for the other companys). Some formulas result in rather linear rubbers such as the Vega Pro and other in wild beasts such as the MX-P or Bluefire M1.

      Factors that possibly play a role are the amount of the organic substance placed between the molecules, if the topesheet uses 100% natural rubber or synthetic rubber (of course different ratios possible, i. e. 80% natural + 20% synthetic), pimple size and structure, size of the pores of the sponge being used, if the sponge gets factory boosted and how much (of course different boosters with (slightly) different effects possible) and other factors as well. So, as I said, both the topsheet and the sponge are very complex products.

      Reading the ESN patents and papers I came to the conclusion, that they use different organics and formulas in order to incorporate different Gas in the rubber/sponge. This, together with what you explained, gives possibility for enormous amount of variations, leading to different results.
      Thats why we have many Tensor brands and every brand with many family lines and models.

    19. Top | #73
      tropical is online now
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      Sorry folks I have to go back to the OP. Continue correcting us all you like but you all know very well what we mean when we use the term "tensor", correct? If you insist on its accuracy then by all means keep correcting us ha ha...

      I was looking into Amazon for this tensor (sic) Mantra but still find the price was a bit high. Other on-line sites showed ~ $45-$70. Where exactly can I find the 20 Euro Mantra?

    20. Top | #74
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis View Post

      but if OP answers you like how he answers Langel,
      which I quote "And while that may bother you for whatever reason, it is your problem, not mine.",
      we should all boycott him.
      The difference between you and I, other than the fact that I am way better looking, is that I write down things that are logical and have common sense. I have no allegiance to manufacturers and their marketing terms and no, it's not ilegal or unethical for me to call them whatever I want as long as everyone understands what I mean, which they do . On the other hand your call to "boycott" me is called instigation, and is is both lame and illegal, you sorry piece of s**t!

      Have a good day now

      Julian

    21. Top | #75
      usualsuspect is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by JulianTT View Post
      The difference between you and I, other than the fact that I am way better looking, is that I write down things that are logical and have common sense. I have no allegiance to manufacturers and their marketing terms and no, it's not ilegal or unethical for me to call them whatever I want as long as everyone understands what I mean, which they do . On the other hand your call to "boycott" me is called instigation, and is is both lame and illegal, you sorry piece of s**t!

      Have a good day now

      Julian
      This is not the most civilized post, but I kinda agree with Julian's underlying message here.
      If you are having a quick conversation with someone, and you use "tensor" as a stand-in for all post-speed glue era non-tacky rubbers, I think most people would understand you.
      In real life situations, I doubt you would go into such detail about the different German and Japanese rubber manufacturers if you are trying to talk to someone. I mean I like tt well enough to be on this forum, and I skipped 98% of Jimbob's long post.
      I think most tt hobbyists probably only care about rubbers' playing characteristics and prices, not their development history.
      I mean, if you are interested in rubbers' backstory, that's totally cool, but maybe don't try rigorously to correct others who don't really care. Coz it kinda comes off a bit dick-ish... Not trying to be rude, this is just how it seems...
      I guess this is the central point us "laymen" have been trying to carry across to you experts... so far in vein.

    22. Top | #76
      Astorix is offline
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      fact: if it`s not ``made in germany`` by ESN then it`s not a tensor.

    23. Top | #77
      yoass is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Astorix View Post
      fact: if it`s not ``made in germany`` by ESN then it`s not a tensor.
      Yes, and if it’s not done by a machine designed in Palo Alto it’s not a xerox.

      If it’s not Swiss-made by Bayer it’s not aspirin.

      All true, and all beside the colloquial point.

    24. Top | #78
      RidTheKid is offline
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      Why don't you all start using H3 and get rid of those tensor-like gimmick rubbers that only carry different names?

    25. Top | #79
      Gary Buck is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by yoass View Post
      Yes, and if it’s not done by a machine designed in Palo Alto it’s not a xerox.

      If it’s not Swiss-made by Bayer it’s not aspirin.

      All true, and all beside the colloquial point.
      Sorry, but this is not beside the point. The term 'tensor' has more than one meaning: a precise technical meaning--rubbers made by ESN using their own proprietary process, a name protected by law--as well as a more general meaning describing the new modern rubbers. This is a forum intended for serious discussion of table tennis equipment, and in such an place, it is appropriate to use technically correct terminology. To continue your analogy, if you went on a discussion list designed for technical discussion of photocopier design, and referred to a Samsung copier as a xerox, you would be scolded, and probably laughed at. This is exactly what happened here.

      Down at the local club, using 'tensor' as a general term to describe all modern rubbers might be quite appropriate, but in a technical forum, it is important to use technical terms in a precise manner.

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    27. Top | #80
      Greg G is offline
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      This thread forced me to create an account LOL. I can't believe no one mentioned a more generic name to call this type of 'modern' rubber other than "A non-linear rubber with great catapult." It was driving me nuts!

      I thought people just call it "TENSIONED rubber!"

      Anyhow, it was an interesting read, especially the history that Jimbob provided. I think I read a little bit about that before, possibly in another post of Jimbob's. The argumentative posts from both sides about trademarked names for the different technologies and what they should or shouldn't be called have too much unnecessary drama. I don't think it's that big of a deal that the OP said "tensor" and I understand what he meant, but wouldn't it just be easier to say "tensioned rubber," to avoid any confusion or semantics? I know I've heard other people use this term before. I think it is the ideal generic term everyone is looking for.

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