Stiga Mantra - possibly the best priced tensor

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Real question here :) I don't understand the difference between the 'tensor' of each 'kind' ? Is there specificities of 'tensor from ESN (the actual 'tensor') and the ones from stiga mantra, also butterfly etc ?

I mean can we do categories and say what are the specificities of each ?

Is the difference a bit like european vs japanese rubbers ? Or can we also distinct these in other categories of behavior ?

I hope i'm clear here, thank you :)
 
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When I think of "tensor" rubbers I include Xioms Carbo sponge, BTY's spring sponge, ESN's tensor, Stigas Mantra. Generally they produce similar results/effects, no? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The word ‘tensor’ is probably a marketing term of a particular brand.

But I concur, this term is broadly used to describe all rubbers designed to deliver a speedglue-ish behaviour, following the speedglue ban.
 
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Hey, I've never used Mantra series before. I want to try but I'm not sure which one to get.
Does anyone know the sponge hardness of Mantra S, M, and H?
For example, like H = 47 degrees, M = 45 degrees, S = 42 degrees? I'm ok with either Euro or DHS scale. Thanks!

Have a look at post #32 where Airoc listed exactly this.
 
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The word ‘tensor’ is probably a marketing term of a particular brand.

But I concur, this term is broadly used to describe all rubbers designed to deliver a speedglue-ish behaviour, following the speedglue ban.

I'm all for some good ol' argument in semantics, but honestly I think everyone is on the same page on the broad usage of "tensor". Even if sometimes, it's not used on ESN rubbers.
Don't see what the big deal is. So what if I call T05 and Mantra tensor rubbers? I think most people still know exactly what I mean.
I think the term "tensor" has colloquially exceeded it's original intended definition for ESN rubbers. Now it applies to all rubbers with thin topsheets and sponges with built-in speed glue characteristics.
This is just like if told someone to "google" something. The term simply means search for something online now, you don't even have to specifically use google.
 
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I am putting my 2cents here. Without people arguing about "tensor" I didn't know that "tensor" was just a trademark name. I always though it was a technology. So I think the OP was also confused as well. A new technology with some characteristics that old technology doesn't have.

Nevertheless, I think people could be nicer. The OP's intention was clear and some folks just want to correct him by showing better knowledge with statements to a point that the OP felt defensive. Keep in mind that there are names that later become so common that people just use them as verbs, nouns, adjective, etc. Think about words like taser (actually an acronym) which commonly used as a verb, sriracha is a name of a Thai town but now becomes a noun for a type of hot sauce, etc. You guys can argue what should be a correct term. In a long run, the noun "tensor" will become known as a technology more than a German company who trademarked it .

I guess its not the first thread where the same OP and tensor like is in the same paragraph
This OP is pretty rude - just go and check the other threads

Never the less, coming back to the technology.
ESN has they technology called Tensor
then Butterfly has something call spring sponge.
Stiga calls its OCS

for the layman, i would just say it is the same thing and no differences.
For a table tennis forum, I would point out that it is difference

Some brands will make the pores bigger and its so soft and brittle, some will factory tune it. Some will use more dense/hard sponge with no pores

Technology is very important, Tenergy is only good because of its spring sponge technology.
A successful 1 generation of technology can challenge ESN's like 4 generations of Tensors, and ESN still fails.

I personally feel Mantra sponge and top sheet is more Tenergy like than any ESN rubber. So what ever Stiga uses, it is good.
Then you get all these ESN rubbers, where company A and company B has the same products. If you want to mix the same as the same, then it is correct to do so
But if you want to mix Tenergy, Mantra with ESN, then its like calling a Toyota Prius as a Tesla.
But I guess, people will still call it like so, just like some people will just call a Samsung tablet as an Ipad.
I won't argue with the layman on that. I would just agree with them because they are both cars, and they are both tablets/phones etc.
 
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I guess its not the first thread where the same OP and tensor like is in the same paragraph
This OP is pretty rude - just go and check the other threads

Never the less, coming back to the technology.
ESN has they technology called Tensor
then Butterfly has something call spring sponge.
Stiga calls its OCS

for the layman, i would just say it is the same thing and no differences.
For a table tennis forum, I would point out that it is difference

Some brands will make the pores bigger and its so soft and brittle, some will factory tune it. Some will use more dense/hard sponge with no pores

Technology is very important, Tenergy is only good because of its spring sponge technology.
A successful 1 generation of technology can challenge ESN's like 4 generations of Tensors, and ESN still fails.

I personally feel Mantra sponge and top sheet is more Tenergy like than any ESN rubber. So what ever Stiga uses, it is good.
Then you get all these ESN rubbers, where company A and company B has the same products. If you want to mix the same as the same, then it is correct to do so
But if you want to mix Tenergy, Mantra with ESN, then its like calling a Toyota Prius as a Tesla.
But I guess, people will still call it like so, just like some people will just call a Samsung tablet as an Ipad.
I won't argue with the layman on that. I would just agree with them

I would say that the meaning behind the term is more important than the actual term used.
If a "layman" talks to you about his/her samsung tablet and calls it an Ipad, would you have trouble understanding him?
I guess you probably will have little trouble understanding him.
I think the same applies here. If I call T05 a tensor rubber, you would still understand the meaning I'm trying to convey, wouldn't you?

I guess the crux of the issue for me is the effectiveness of the communication. If everybody is understand everybody well enough, then why bother arguing about the semantics.
 
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I would say that the meaning behind the term is more important than the actual term used.
If a "layman" talks to you about his/her samsung tablet and calls it an Ipad, would you have trouble understanding him?
I guess you probably will have little trouble understanding him.
I think the same applies here. If I call T05 a tensor rubber, you would still understand the meaning I'm trying to convey, wouldn't you?

I guess the crux of the issue for me is the effectiveness of the communication. If everybody is understand everybody well enough, then why bother arguing about the semantics.

again, its depending where this is communicated.
so you go into a cellphone forum and tell them that my new samsung note 20 is the best i-phone ever.
Please go do it and share with me the feedback

now since we in an equipment section of a TT forum, I can say T05 success is not based on "Tensor", since Tensor is in the rubber(topsheet) as T05 success is in the sponge.... I hope there is a few more people in here that knows this otherwise this is really the blind leading the blinds
so a small understanding for the OP to acknowledge.
Langel already did it a bit more friendly before I stepped in

one should rather say, its speed glue free effect rubber if one really want to generalise
 
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I am putting my 2cents here. Without people arguing about "tensor" I didn't know that "tensor" was just a trademark name. I always though it was a technology. So I think the OP was also confused as well. A new technology with some characteristics that old technology doesn't have...

I might as well put my own two or three cents in. OP Julian may like it ot not, but calling Mantra a Tensor is both scientifically and (in some way) legally wrong, since it is a registered name/term as some already mentioned. So, "Tensor Bios" is actually not a trademarked term, "only" registered which is somewhat of a sub-level of a trademark. There are companys out there that have trademarked some of their products containing the term "Tensor"; companys that have nothing to do with table tennis whatsoever.

Anyway, to understand why a rubber by ESN is a Tensor and rubbers such as Tenergy, Rozena, Mantra and the Mizuno Q-series are not Tensors, you probably have to go back in time a little bit...

As some of you know, ESN was founded by Dr. Nicklas, who studied chemical engeneering and has a PhD in physics and mechanical engeneering and who also happens to be the founder of the brand "Donic" (Doctor Nicklas). Also Dr. Nicklas played tt on a fairly high level (eventually 1. and 2. Bundesliga) and one of his coaches was Karl-Heinz Schreiner. Before establishing ESN, Dr. Nicklas sold Donic to his former coach and the Schreiner family still owns the Donic brand to this date. But thats just on a side note.

Back in the 90s, the tt companys had to solve a problem: producing rubbers to emulate the properties of (now "classical") rubbers that were usually speed glued, i. e. rubbers with a lot of catapult and outstanding spin capablities. At that time it was already discussed to ban speed glueing, which eventually happened about ten years later (after the Beijing Olympics).

Some of the stuff you can of course read up on the ESN homepage. ESN did a lot of research and was able to integrate some sort of organic substance between the molecules of the rubber, i. e. topsheet and which worked as a kind of a spring between it, and by doing so also enabeling the topsheet to stretch beyong its normal capablities. And this technology is basically what ESN calls "Tensor" or "Tensor Bios". Stiga, for example, would have most likely been sued by ESN if they had marketed the Mantra or Airoc (which I believe are made by Daiki in Japan) as "The new Stiga Mantra/ Airoc, the best "Tensor" in the world!"

In 1998 the first Tensor was released, the Joola Tango, quickly followed by rubbers such as Andro Revolution, Revolution Fire, Tibhar Rapid Dtecs, Rookie Dtecs, Schildkröt v-max and s-max. However the Joola Tango was not the very first rubber with a high tensioned topsheet. One year earlier Butterfly released the Bryce. Butterfly therefore coined the term "High Tension". The effect might be simlilar to what ESN developed, but it was simply a different technological method. In essence both ESN and Butterfly developed at around the same time a topsheet which is already under high tension before it is glued onto the sponge, but the topsheet of the Tensors gave the rubber an additional spring effect. The main problem with the first generation of Tensors was that the topsheet was very brittle, so the durablity was very poor and many of the very first Tensors had a bad reputation because of that. Some people were so bold and speed glued the sponge of the Tensors, although that was not necessary, further stretching the topsheet until bubbles appeared and essentially destroying the rubber and adding to the bad rep...

The main difference between the Bryce and the Tensors was/is, that a Tensor is desigend to fully replace rubbers that had to be speed glued in order to be competetive (such as Sriver, Donic Coppa, Yasaka Mark V etc.), wheareas the Bryce still had to be speed glued to get out its full potential. It is save to say that ESN did something to the sponge of their first Tensors as well (they surely didn't start with factory boosting Bluefire, Evolution and so on...); but the real breakout was the way they produced the topsheet, hence the registration unter the term "Tensor". The sponge of the Bryce on the other hand was merely an upgrade of the already existing ones by Butterfly and still some lightyears away from the Spring Sponge of the Tenergys.

So, the true revolution by Butterfly was the porous "Spring Sponge" that gives, along with the "High Tension" topsheet, the Tenergys their (probably still unique) speed glue effect. Sure, other factors play a role as well, such as the pimple structure. The pimples of the T64 are thinner compared to the ones of the T05 or T25 enabeling the ball to penetrate deeper into the sponge and get more catapult from the Spring Sponge.

At the end of the day, both ESN and Butterfly successfully developed rubbers with built-in-speed-glue-effect. ESN's "revolution" was the "Tensor" topsheet (and later, after the success of the Tenergys, adding porous sponges, some of them factory boosted), whereas Butterfly's actual revolution was the Spring Sponge while further modifying the High Tension topsheet.

As for the Stiga Mantras, Airocs, Mizuno Qs etc. which are made by either Daiki or Fuso, they are not quite as revolutionary. It might sound a bit harsh, but I have the impression that Daiki/ Fuso are oftentimes imitating or modifying interesting ideas by ESN and Butterfly. But they can produce very good rubbers as well; I like the Mantras and also the Mizuno Q3 and Q4.

Spring Sponge, Tensor, OCS, Cycloid, Hyper Elasto etc. are fancy ways to say something, the difference is that some terms are either trademarked or registerd and some are not, sometimes for a reason. ESN probably knows better than us why they have registerd the name "Tensor" and what makes their rubbers different from the rubbers of their competitors.

Edit: Some additional reading for the ones interested...
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?5658-What-Is-a-table-tennis-tensor-rubber
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3906&sid=7df25c62a365ef37d9f14c97f7800102
 
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again, its depending where this is communicated.
so you go into a cellphone forum and tell them that my new samsung note 20 is the best i-phone ever.
Please go do it and share with me the feedback

now since we in an equipment section of a TT forum, I can say T05 success is not based on "Tensor", since Tensor is in the rubber(topsheet) and T05 success is in the sponge.... I hope there is a few more people in here that knows this otherwise this is really the blind leading the blinds

one should rather say, its speed glue free effect rubber if one really want to generalise

Damn, Tony. You beat me to it, and you even wrote a little less than me.
 
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Damn, Tony. You beat me to it, and you even wrote a little less than me.

Jimbob, with your so detailed reply, I should actually give you the accolades.

but if OP answers you like how he answers Langel,
which I quote "And while that may bother you for whatever reason, it is your problem, not mine.",
we should all boycott him.

I must say, you are very knowledgeable in rubber technology and its history!
are you in the equipment business?
 
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Well .. I guess whoever tell us laymen are wrong in using the term then all power to you, peace, please.

Think about these terms:

Xerox: it means copy , a company
Band-aid: adhesive tape trademarked by Johnson and Johnson
Tabloid: a short form of journalism trademarked by Burroughs Wellcom & Co.
Escalator: a moving stairway, trademarked by Otis
Jet-ski: a watercraft, trademarked by Kawasaki
Windbreaker: a lightweight jacket, trademarked by John Rissman
Zipper: a zip fastener, trademarked by BF Goodrich
Kiwi: a Chinese gooseberry, trademarked by Zespri
Onesie: infant bodysuit, trademarked by Gerber

and believe it or not

Pingpong: table tennis, actually trademarked by Jaques & Son back in 1901 ;)
 
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Jimbob, with your so detailed reply, I should actually give you the accolades.

but if OP answers you like how he answers Langel,
which I quote "And while that may bother you for whatever reason, it is your problem, not mine.",
we should all boycott him.

I must say, you are very knowledgeable in rubber technology and its history!
are you in the equipment business?

Ha, unfortunately I'm not in the rubber or blade business. I'm just very interested in the technical specifications of rubbers and blades. I should also mention that some infos presented in my previous post about ESN, its history and all the connections are basically table tennis "folklore" in Germany. Many people know these infos.
 
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Ha, unfortunately I'm not in the rubber or blade business. I'm just very interested in the technical specifications of rubbers and blades. I should also mention that some infos presented in my previous post about ESN, its history and all the connections are basically table tennis "folklore" in Germany. Many people know these infos.

I guess its the younger generation that doesn't know these stuff.
I see it often where people don't understand Tensor, if the OP wasn't rude, I won't even waste my time here.

Never the less, I kindof agree and not agree with you about the Japanese rubber makers.
Agree in terms of it doesn't seem like they are pioneering any technology and always following
But have to note, I feel they are making much more quality products than they German counter parts.
So if one was to say, they are copying, then it is like they are copying and making it better

You did say you like Mantra. I also feel the other Japanese rubbers are doing very well in the 40+ era.
If only Japanese companies are more serious about the European market, maybe you will hear of them more.
In Asia, another market Japanese products is strong is in Taiwan, and other than Butterfly, Nittaku pretty much own the balance. I don't even think ESN features at all
 
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Well .. I guess whoever tell us laymen are wrong in using the term then all power to you, peace, please.

Think about these terms:

Xerox: it means copy , a company
Band-aid: adhesive tape trademarked by Johnson and Johnson
Tabloid: a short form of journalism trademarked by Burroughs Wellcom & Co.
Escalator: a moving stairway, trademarked by Otis
Jet-ski: a watercraft, trademarked by Kawasaki
Windbreaker: a lightweight jacket, trademarked by John Rissman
Zipper: a zip fastener, trademarked by BF Goodrich
Kiwi: a Chinese gooseberry, trademarked by Zespri
Onesie: infant bodysuit, trademarked by Gerber

and believe it or not

Pingpong: table tennis, actually trademarked by Jaques & Son back in 1901 ;)

I'm not so fussy about the trademark
but if you want to compare technology, you must atleast compare it and call it correctly.

I already gave enough examples, maybe Telsa is the best example.
But yeah, to the layman, they all cars, and they won't understand why the price differnce.

Maybe OP should of put this topic in the general thread and not equipment thread.
 
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I guess its the younger generation that doesn't know these stuff.
I see it often where people don't understand Tensor, if the OP wasn't rude, I won't even waste my time here.

Never the less, I kindof agree and not agree with you about the Japanese rubber makers.
Agree in terms of it doesn't seem like they are pioneering any technology and always following
But have to note, I feel they are making much more quality products than they German counter parts.
So if one was to say, they are copying, then it is like they are copying and making it better

Hmm, well that could be. A little bit like what the chinese do, no? ;) Just kidding.
As for (current) ESN rubbers, I think that Tibhar, Xiom and Gewo buy the best (as in highest quality) products from ESN. Japanese rubbers such as the Mantras or the Mizuno Qs are more or less on par with with them in terms of durablity, overall potential in spin and speed.
 
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Hmm, well that could be. A little bit like what the chinese do, no? ;) Just kidding.
As for (current) ESN rubbers, I think that Tibhar, Xiom and Gewo buy the best (as in highest quality) products from ESN. Japanese rubbers such as the Mantras or the Mizuno Qs are more or less on par with with them in terms of durablity, overall potential in spin and speed.

For ESN, and those 3 companies, I fully agree.
Other than production, I would say (don't know about Tibhar) but Xiom and Gewo's customer service/feedback is very very good. Especially compared to other brands I know. So I am not surprised that Xiom has already or will enter the top 5 soon (its rubber already features in Japan's top 10), while Gewo is a great prospectus for a future top 5.

Sad in a way that some traditional European brands are falling out of the race
But I guess Xerox as big as they were, didn't move with the paradigm shift
 
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