Backhand service return %

songdavid98 · Jul 26, 2019

MOG said:
Here is a video of my serve return on Sunday at a tournament.
All 3 players are higher ranked than me, a fair bit higher, In theory they should always beat me. I have beaten the last opponent once, sometimes i get a set often not.

I feel like serve return is the biggest difference between us.

Anyway be interested in why some returns are good and some are bad?

Hey there, I think I see your problem. But first you should mention that the first opponent in your video, you didn't show missed serves, which is why Lula above me is confused.

1. It looks like your opponents are deliberately taking advantage of the weakness of your pips. Pips do not return long serves well compared to inverted rubber.

2. When you decide to use topspin to receive with your backhand, you like to take the ball early, which is fine when you decide to go slow. Like at 4:06 https://youtu.be/kQ0-EILxuzE?t=246 . But it's not really ok when you decide to go fast like at 3:58 https://youtu.be/kQ0-EILxuzE?t=238 .

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Please understand that when your opponent is serving, that is when you are at a complete disadvantage. Don't go thinking that you'll be able to blast away serves. Don't disrespect serves, and remember that serve receive problems happen at the highest levels as well.

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I'll recommend some options for receive for long sereves, since your short serve receive isn't bad.

1. Use your forehand when they serve long

2. For topspinning with pips, go slower and maximize placement and minimize height. Please understand that you aren't going to be blasting topspins like an inverted rubber. I just randomly googled a video of Mima Ito and looked what I found in the first minute:
https://youtu.be/DaBEsQxbjFg?t=55 . Also throughout the video, her topspin returns aren't fast. The only fast returns from her backhand are punches to the corner.

3. Learn other returns, like no spins, chops, etc. With the power of short pips, you can do more non-mainstream returns, so get creative. The same Mima Ito video shows many different kinds of receives. Make sure to maximize placement on those.

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By the way, another problem I see is that you tend to go slow with the pips in the rally when you don't need to. You only really need to go slow on backspin. Feel free to punch topspins during the rally. You'll win lots of points that way.

Don't forget to dropshot short sereves and stuff.

MOG · Jul 26, 2019

Bit off topic, but earlier I had a practice with a different ball. A newer plastic one, not my trusty Joola Flash!!

My bh was awful
My fh was awful
Ball was too slow, ball had not enough spin.

To make sure it was not in my head, we changed the ball and my shots improved.

So we went back and my shots deteriorated again.

This is frustrating as I had settled with the set up I have, but it was so terrible there is no point.
My pimples just would not work at all with the plastic ball.

OMG! WTF!##

What the hell to do now!

usualsuspect · Jul 26, 2019

You are right.
I'm afraid the new plastic balls like DHS D40+ have less spin than the old 40+.
They are also harder and bounce higher. You could use this to your advantage and do more BH punches with short pip.
With inverted rubber, you'll have to rely less on brushing and more on hitting during a loop.

MOG · Jul 26, 2019

Well I thought that, but my pimples shots were awful, one my consistency went right down and two the shot was just ineffective even if I got it on.

I mean really how can Spectol Red be slow on a fast carbon blade on a new fast table at a very fast venue. It is actually like playing a different sport.

mart1nandersson · Jul 26, 2019

I’ve also become a whole lot more sensitive to certain balls after I switched to LP. I hit quite a lot with my LP side and it simply doesn’t work with Donic, Double Fish and TSP balls. It’s just something to live with but it’s frustrating as hell. I avoid tournaments that use these balls but it can’t be avoided when playing league matches as the home team decides what ball to use.

langel · Jul 26, 2019

What was that new plastic ball?
Generally the new ABS balls are faster than the older plastic ones.
Joola Flash is a seamless plastic ball and has a higher bounce than the new ABS. Was the bounce hight the problem?
I have noticed that some Joola tables are much more sensible to balls differences than any other tables and its really disgusting especially for players who are fixed and used to a particular ball.
Do some intensive multiball training with different balls.

MOG · Jul 26, 2019

Interesting Martin, last year I played a tournament with SP and dhs 40 balls. I won 2 sets and lost 24, I could not play, it was so bad I gave up on using short pimples. And went into a mad EJ mode for a year.

I think that the new balls will become more and more popular, so I am thinking what is the point of rebuilding my game to use short pimples if I am going to find them a hinderence in two or three years.

Might as well go back to reversed.

Langel, it could be the bounce as clearly a slightly higher bounce is good for attacking with short pimples.

usualsuspect · Jul 26, 2019

I could be wrong here, but I thought majority of the ABS balls are made by DHS anyway.
I thought all seamless balls are made by Xushaofa.
Again, this is just what I heard, not totally sure.

MOG · Jul 26, 2019

there is no way the sanwei is the same ball as the joola flash?

No way on this earth!!

LOL

dominus7 · Jul 26, 2019

usualsuspect said:
I could be wrong here, but I thought majority of the ABS balls are made by DHS anyway.
I thought all seamless balls are made by Xushaofa.
Again, this is just what I heard, not totally sure.

Xushaofa makes seam and seamless balls, seamless are stiffer balls but they broke easily if you hit with the bat's edge, the Joola ball 40+ is the same or almost the same as Xushaofa seamless, and donic too, but butterfly balls, nittaku balls, Sanwei balls, all abs feel different. Some are heavier, other are stiffer, other are, bouncier but less spinnier, other spinnier and bouncier. I prefer use Xushaofa 3*, they feel more uniform than other. But it's a personal preference.

mart1nandersson · Jul 26, 2019

I believe that the balls I hate are all made by Double Fish. You notice the sound immediately as it sounds like a broken 38mm ball.

Sanwei (and Yinhe) seem to have different models. Some are made by DHS, some by Double Fish and some by XSF/Minkow (seamless). I prefer the seamless but the DHS D40+ are also great.

usualsuspect · Jul 26, 2019

I like DHS D40+ and I've had good experience with Xiom seamless balls. Yinhe seamless is not bad neither, it just feels slightly less bouncy than Xiom seamless.

MOG · Jul 26, 2019

well the seamed sanwei is horrible

MOG · Jul 26, 2019

I am going to persevere with my short pimples for now, but it will be hard work i think

MOG · Jul 27, 2019

Logic would suggest sticking with the bat and rubbers I have been enjoying using, and practising training with the newer abs balls. So for once I will try and be sensible and do this. If it does not feel better in several weeks then I will forget about the short pimples!!

langel · Jul 27, 2019

dominus7 said:
Xushaofa makes seam and seamless balls, seamless are stiffer balls but they broke easily if you hit with the bat's edge, the Joola ball 40+ is the same or almost the same as Xushaofa seamless, and donic too, but butterfly balls, nittaku balls, Sanwei balls, all abs feel different. Some are heavier, other are stiffer, other are, bouncier but less spinnier, other spinnier and bouncier. I prefer use Xushaofa 3*, they feel more uniform than other. But it's a personal preference.

Just for information, to whom it may concern only.

XuShaoFa is not making any balls /though there are some rumors that just maybe they have build their own factory/
XuShaoFa is the inventor and patent holder of the Seamless technology.
There are no seamed XSF balls.
The producer of all Seamless balls, under the license of XSF, is the Shanghai Minkow factory.
Minkow is producing both seamed and seamless balls.
Minkow has its own brand name Kingnik.

There are seamless Sanwei balls which are very close to all others seamless.
There are seamed ABS Sanwei balls.
Interestingly the ABS balls of the differenet brands do differ very much.
Interestingly the latest lots of the differently branded seamless balls not only do differ, but are of significantly lower quality.

And all that may differ on different markets.

And its bad, especially for players, who are very sensitive to the ball.

dominus7 · Jul 27, 2019

langel said:
Just for information, to whom it may concern only.

XuShaoFa is not making any balls /though there are some rumors that just maybe they have build their own factory/
XuShaoFa is the inventor and patent holder of the Seamless technology.
There are no seamed XSF balls.
The producer of all Seamless balls, under the license of XSF, is the Shanghai Minkow factory.
Minkow is producing both seamed and seamless balls.
Minkow has its own brand name Kingnik.

There are seamless Sanwei balls which are very close to all others seamless.
There are seamed ABS Sanwei balls.
Interestingly the ABS balls of the differenet brands do differ very much.
Interestingly the latest lots of the differently branded seamless balls not only do differ, but are of significantly lower quality.

And all that may differ on different markets.

And its bad, especially for players, who are very sensitive to the ball.

There are XSF 3* seamless and 3* seamed, I know about kingnik too, but the balls are completely different, texture, bounciness, and spin, kingnik balls are lower quality, I can't assure if Minkow is making both balls, I will ask to my provider; by the way now at local club there are Huieson balls 3*, and they are great! Not so expensive and very nice, they are close to be the best ball price vs quality.

langel · Jul 27, 2019

dominus7 said:
There are XSF 3* seamless and 3* seamed, I know about kingnik too, but the balls are completely different, texture, bounciness, and spin, kingnik balls are lower quality, I can't assure if Minkow is making both balls, I will ask to my provider; by the way now at local club there are Huieson balls 3*, and they are great! Not so expensive and very nice, they are close to be the best ball price vs quality.

Can you show me a picture or a link to seamed XuShaoFa balls?

dominus7 · Jul 27, 2019

langel said:
Can you show me a picture or a link to seamed XuShaoFa balls?

I'm busy now, but later I'll take a couple pics

frankhond · Jul 28, 2019

UpSideDownCarl said:
Here: part of the idea is that, if you are not moving, it is much harder to start moving. Think of standing flat footed and then trying to run from there. For the first few steps it will be hard to accelerate and then as you are moving it becomes easier to accelerate. For this reason, when you see people running for exercise in city streets, if they come to a crossroads where there is traffic and they have to wait, a seasoned runner will jog in place until they can accelerate forward again. From jogging in place, they will be able to accelerate forward much sooner than the runner who just stands and waits.

If you watch what the pros do when receiving serve, as the opponent tosses the ball, they go from low to high, and as they do they move a tiny step closer to the table so their feet are already moving before they commit to where they think/see the ball is going. But, you can also see from body position, body language, and racket angle, before the ball is contacted where the ball may go. You just don't want to commit till you see where it actually is going. But you still can take a very small step in the direction you sense the ball will go. That won't prevent you from changing directions.

The idea of being just far enough back that you would even want to move in a hair on a long, fast serve ensures that, if all you do is move in a tiny step towards the table on the serve, that you are going in the right direction no matter where the ball is actually served.

One more detail. A TT table is 5 feet side to side (approximately 152.4cm). A human adult's arm is, on average, somewhere between 20-30 inches (51-76mm)[more than 1/3 of the width of the table]. If you are standing solidly in the BH corner, the most you really would have to move, given the arm length, from the BH corner, to cover the FH corner (if you cut off the angle and take the ball off the bounce) is 1.25 feet (38cm). We are really talking about very small adjustments to positioning on return of serve to make it so your feet are in place to take a good stroke.

...

One thing I would actually think about trying for a few weeks if I was MOG is, try to make it so, every serve that is anywhere closer to the FH side than 1 foot from the BH side line, he should try to turn and take that with a FH. I will restate that again. This would be an exercise. He would have to forget about winning points for about a week and commit to trying this. The only serves he would receive with his BH would be closer to the BH side line than ONE FOOT (30cm). Everything else, he would have to try and turn to use his FH. That would be the footwork of the turn in a Falkenberg from the BH to the first FH. That footwork, legitimately, can make it so you can take any serve between the two end lines with only your FH. I have seen decently high level players return serves that were several feet wide of the BH side line with their FH. But this would only be so that, if there was any serve where MOG had to move at all towards the FH side to take a BH, that, instead, he would turn to the FH for ALL OF THOSE SERVES.

...

That's some great stuff, I have veen looking at videos of Timo Boll etc receiving serves and I see what you are talking about! I'll try your excercise too, wish me luck...

...only one thing... Falkenberg is a small city in Sweden, but what is "the footwork of the turn in a Falkenberg"?

Backhand service return %

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