Tips on how to get out of push battes.

And, again, for anyone who confuses why I posted the videos of multiball, it was not for the technique the pros are using. I do not recommend a beginner copy the form of a pro on anything. I do not recommend someone trying to learn to try and copy Ma Long's stroke or Ma Lin's stroke, or Zhang Jike's stroke, or Timo Boll's stroke. Those guys have trained for most of their life to develop the technique they have.

The purpose of the videos was for how the multiball feeder is feeding the backspin ball. NOT WHAT THE PROS ARE SO ADEPT AT DOING.

If you want to find footage of a low level player doing a drill to work on looping backspin, I think that would be a great idea. The videos were for the drill, the pace of the feed, the idea that the ball placement is not something like a 2 point drill or a 3 point drill, the drill is not fast, the drill allows the player to adjust to the placement of each separate ball, and causes the player to move his feet to each separate ball.

The multiball drills that were posted by me were to see drills that could be used for working on developing the skill of looping vs backspin. NOT FOR THE TECHNIQUE OR TIMING OF THE PROS.

And I do take NextLevel's point that we have no idea what the OP plays like and if he actually has strokes or just puts his racket out. But I have seen coaches use drills like that with players who are playing for a very short time and get them to understand the feel of looping against a backspin ball. When you do that, when you drill that, when you work on it, you get to feel how to do it.

I think this is a great explanation of the process:

NextLevel said:

Looping backspin consistently is a process. It can take a long time but you have to stick with it. Looping backspin is a test of your ability to spin the ball. Very often, people who can't loop backspin consistently are trying to hit the ball, as opposed to spinning or turning the ball. You have to follow the shape of the ball with your stroke when looping backspin if you want to be consistent.

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All the feed of the multiball would be for is to get the player to be doing what NextLevel is describing: For them to feel how to follow the shape of the ball with the stroke as the practice. At the beginner level, to a large extend it does not matter so much if the ball goes on the table as long as the beginner starts to feel how to touch, caress and SPIN the ball. To do that you need to practice many many repetitions. That is why I showed video that shows how the ball feed could look.

But probably it would still be slower with more time for reset. The point was, it would not be like this version of multiball:


That is a 3 point drill and since, it was also said that a 3 point multiball drill could be used, and that was said in the context of a 3 point drill being one of the most physically taxing drills in all of sports, I wanted it to be clear, that, to work on looping backspin with multiball, it should not be at a pace like that.

You should have time for each ball so you get a quality stroke for each ball.

If your skill at looping backspin is more solid, the drills can be more complicated. First you need simple. And while those pros and how they attack backspin is much more advanced, they still are training the skill with a fairly simple feed, not with something fancy or complex like a 3 point drill.

The feed for multiball for someone learning the skill of looping backspin should be sort of slow, enough time to reset and be ready for each ball so you get a quality shot on each ball. But I am not saying that a person should loop like Ma Long. Even Ryu Seung Min does not loop like Ma Long. And Ma Long does not loop like Ryu Seung Min either. A person should develop his own technique through practice. Not by imitating how the pros do it. Trying to do that can get anyone in trouble.

I can confirm I used to practice every week looping against backspin with my former coach. Pace is rather slow compared to some other exercises but it’s still
demanding because footwork is important

yogi_bear said:

Aside from looping, change also the placement of the ball to off the oerson's balance and position.

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Totally agreed with this suggestion as well!

It's easy to think of a push as a totally defensive move, but it's important if you get into a "push battle" to keep your pushes offensive. In other words, don't merely put the ball back with a long push, but try to vary the deception, spin, placement and timing of your push to keep your opponent off-balance.

Not only will your opponent return a better ball to attack, but you can avoid having them end the push battle with their own loop

Thought I'd add a note that you'll see this on the intermediate level. Just something to watch out for.

I've read some others who say serve topspin or some version of side top.

There are some intermediate players at our club who will still push or maybe chop this ball. Obviously when they pop it up, you kill it. But the more experienced players can keep this push lower. In those instances, I just before I loop the next ball, I keep in mind that that ball typically has even more backspin than what you're use to if you were to say serve backspin and they push to you off the table.

You will have to put a little more lift into your ball to get it over the net which is completely doable. You just have to be aware of your version of topspin aided by their push if lower, is extremely heavy. So just be prepared. This is a tip I've only discovered say int he last couple of months in wondering why every now & then in that exact same scenario, I put it in the net when that normally doesn't happen. Usually if i miss, I'll miss long. Anyways, it's because of that exact thing there. The ball is super loaded.

Two of three of my practice partners like doing what we call the push drill. Basically the server serves the ball so it must be pushed. The pushing continues until someone screws up and loses outright or pushes too high so the other person can attack. Now we have got to the point where there is little pushing. We can open up FH or BH. Rarely does the ball go back and forth 4 times before it is attacked.

One of the problems I had when first learning to open up is doing it aggressively. Too many times the opening got the ball over the net but it was too easy to attack. That was years ago though.

On of the things I like to do is push low and short to the middle. I watch how the opponent approaches the ball with the paddle. I can pretty much tell where the ball is going to go. Also, there is a good chance that the ball is returned a little high. This makes the ball easy to attack.

My third practice partner doesn't like pushing at all and usually attacks anything unless it is a very short and low ball. When he is hot he is hot. When he is not he is not.

Also, try to give a none spinny push back at them because you also need to reset the amount of backspin that will come back to you.

Banana or strawberry push to pop but the return for a smash

yogi_bear said:

Also, try to give a none spinny push back at them because you also need to reset the amount of backspin that will come back to you.

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+1 for the nospin push. If you vary the level of spin in your pushes between heavy and none, you’re bound to get popups and net hits against oppos that insist on keeping pushing.

With some practice, you can vary spin levels in such a way that it is really hard to see what you’re doing to the ball.

Step by step guide to bh loop
by Yangyang TT

https://youtu.be/H5R5pTN8Esg

yogi_bear said:

Also, try to give a none spinny push back at them because you also need to reset the amount of backspin that will come back to you.

Click to expand...

I also suggested a no-spin push to the middle elbow... makes player move and he/she likely mis-reads a little or lot, even if not, you get a predictable ball to attack.

I am known for simply giving back a heavy push first ball. I do that to establish push=heavy concept, so that my no-spin push works.

Sometimes, I just give a no-spin ball right to the strong zone where it is real easy for opponent to attack... this is what Next Level calls a No-Spin push "in your face"

Despite the tactics and there are loads--I have a way of pushing topspin that gets me a lot of easy points on players below a certain level--nothing can replace the training that will make it so that you learn how to loop when you want to. To loop backspin takes practice and a plan to implement the practice of looping backspin.

Another way of training it is doing a drill where you serve backspin, your opponent pushes, and you have to loop the push. And you do that over and over and over, and at a certain point, you get good at it. You do that without counting points. Just trying to make the shot. When you land the opening loop, you play out the point.

And if you train on learning to loop against backspin, as you get good at that skill, your loop in general, will improve. By getting better at looping backspin, you will also improve at looping vs topspin and sidespin. And it leads towards you developing better skills at counterlooping vs heavy topspin loops because it helps you improve how you touch the ball.

So, I will say, short fixes of tactics are fine. But nothing will replace training the skill of learning to loop against a backspin ball. It doesn't matter how you train it. But it is well worth training that skill so you are competent and more than competent on it.

UpSideDownCarl said:

Despite the tactics and there are loads--I have a way of pushing topspin that gets me a lot of easy points on players below a certain level--nothing can replace the training that will make it so that you learn how to loop when you want to. To loop backspin takes practice and a plan to implement the practice of looping backspin.

Another way of training it is doing a drill where you serve backspin, your opponent pushes, and you have to loop the push. And you do that over and over and over, and at a certain point, you get good at it. You do that without counting points. Just trying to make the shot. When you land the opening loop, you play out the point.

And if you train on learning to loop against backspin, as you get good at that skill, your loop in general, will improve. By getting better at looping backspin, you will also improve at looping vs topspin and sidespin. And it leads towards you developing better skills at counterlooping vs heavy topspin loops because it helps you improve how you touch the ball.

So, I will say, short fixes of tactics are fine. But nothing will replace training the skill of learning to loop against a backspin ball.

Click to expand...

It depends. Part of the reason why people can't loop at the lower levels is that they can't read the spin. They also can't fold the arm or accelerate the racket fast enough to make confident strokes when their racket head speed is in a certain range.

Then the biggest problem IMO but the most underestimated - confusing misreading the ball and missing the table with taking a bad swing.

When you develop a really advanced looping stroke and practice using it against all spins, then everything Carl above is true. But I don't think Carl really explained that you need an advanced (as in good technique) looping stroke and you also need to practice using it against all kinds of spins so you can understand what the adjustment to the stroke needs to be when the ball changes especially if you miss the table or into the net.

Usually lower level players haven't been taught how to think about missing and adjusting their stroke so they think when they miss the stroke is wrong, rather than realizing you can miss with good strokes, you just need to fix your approach to the ball. So they stop taking the swings rather than adjusting their swing to the ball.

This is the part that experience and practice tends to give you but you need to use the same stroke to loop all kinds of balls, with the focus on controlling the ball and reading your strokes effect on the ball vs what you thought was on the ball not necessarily on putting the ball on the table. People who are learning get so focused on putting the ball.on the table that they struggle to improve and just work on their swings. Because if your focus is on putting the ball.on the table, your swing will never improve. But if your focus is on making the ball do what you think it should do in response to your swing, even if it doesn't, as long as you read the result and try to adjust, things improve pretty quickly.

UpSideDownCarl said:

At the beginner level, to a large extend it does not matter so much if the ball goes on the table as long as the beginner starts to feel how to touch, caress and SPIN the ball.

Click to expand...

NextLevel said:

It depends. Part of the reason why people can't loop at the lower levels is that they can't read the spin. They also can't fold the arm or accelerate the racket fast enough to make confident strokes when their racket head speed is in a certain range.

Then the biggest problem IMO but the most underestimated - confusing misreading the ball and missing the table with taking a bad swing.

When you develop a really advanced looping stroke and practice using it against all spins, then everything Carl above is true. But I don't think Carl really explained that you need an advanced (as in good technique) looping stroke and you also need to practice using it against all kinds of spins so you can understand what the adjustment to the stroke needs to be when the ball changes especially if you miss the table or into the net.

Usually lower level players haven't been taught how to think about missing and adjusting their stroke so they think when they miss the stroke is wrong, rather than realizing you can miss with good strokes, you just need to fix your approach to the ball. So they stop taking the swings rather than adjusting their swing to the ball.

This is the part that experience and practice tends to give you but you need to use the same stroke to loop all kinds of balls, with the focus on controlling the ball and reading your strokes effect on the ball vs what you thought was on the ball not necessarily on putting the ball on the table. People who are learning get so focused on putting the ball.on the table that they struggle to improve and just work on their swings. Because if your focus is on putting the ball.on the table, your swing will never improve. But if your focus is on making the ball do what you think it should do in response to your swing, even if it doesn't, as long as you read the result and try to adjust, things improve pretty quickly.

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I believe we agree. You are adding more nuance.

One of these can also help with some of the mechanics:


When you do that wrong, you can break your racket. But for sure you know when you use that wheel incorrectly.

And that kind of device can help a person understand just what you meant by learning to follow the shape of the ball with your stroke.

I have seen Mike Landers use that device to get a beginner (girl) 9 years old, never played before, not at all, to be looping backspin with both FH and BH within 3 lessons.

But your points in the post above are excellent and do have much more nuance than I am adding.

Really, really nice thread.

Lula said:

Always loop at a long push. Every time. If you do that you will learn. In my book as a coach it is not okay to push back long because you hesitate or do not feel safe. Just loop.

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Just wanted to mention that since reading this, a week ago, I changed a lot of things in my training matches, and it is already paying off.

NextLevel said:

People who are learning get so focused on putting the ball.on the table that they struggle to improve and just work on their swings. Because if your focus is on putting the ball.on the table, your swing will never improve. But if your focus is on making the ball do what you think it should do in response to your swing, even if it doesn't, as long as you read the result and try to adjust, things improve pretty quickly.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what clicked to me when I read the post from Lula. Great inputs.

lVegita said:

Really, really nice thread.



Just wanted to mention that since reading this, a week ago, I changed a lot of things in my training matches, and it is already paying off.



This is exactly what clicked to me when I read the post from Lula. Great inputs.

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Yep. Knowing that you can do everything in a way that is totally ineffective and still get the ball on the table and that you can do more than enough well and not put the ball on the table, is important to understand and can really help you improve.

When Edmund Suen helped me fix my FH and add the forearm into my stroke more usefully, he actually had me hit the ball over and over with no table so I could not tell if the ball landed on the table or not. Just hit the ball with my arm doing the mechanics of the right stroke. And at first, not even worrying about trajectory at all, just mechanics of stroke and what happened to the ball when I did the mechanics of the stroke.