Tips on how to get out of push battes.

Do what the ball needs. A fast reaction with a proper decision is always better than fixing on "this and that meant to be good" if "this and that" is not good for the particular moment.
One can be very surprised how experienced players neglect pushing and make mistakes playing with intermediate kids, who are just getting their pushing expertise.

Well he says that his pushes go on until he finds himself comfortable enough to loop with his backhand (guess it's his prefered wing to attack with) so I just think he should shorten the amount of pushes by making them a bit more strategic and efficient to make his opponent make a mistake or give him something that favors his backhand attack.

He should practice lifting backspin from both wings to build his confidence and get the attack in sooner with the correct angle. I find that service, be it the type of spin or the placement, is a great tool that he could use. Just pay attention at what your opponent can't start pushing so easily, predict where he's going to send it and attack.

I speak from my own experience, these are the things I did to get off the habit of just pushing.

If you'd tell us more about your style and your experience maybe we could give you some more tips. Is it against a certain type of opponent? Which wing is more dominant? What serves do you use?

raymond3601 said:

end up too scared to play aggressively. My push plays go on until I find myself comfortable looping with my backhand. I try 3rd ball attacking but always seem get the angle wrong for the drive or loop.

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See if you can get someone to feed you multiball with some backspin for you to practice your backhand against. Maybe your not dropping your bat low enough for you to get the correct amount of brush on the stroke. Check out this video for tips from Dan and Tom, or if you have access to some coach or more advanced player ask him for help in correcting your stroke. After a couple hundred strokes with the multiball you'll probably get the hang of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QoQh3_12WE

Your starting off with backspin on your serve, which is easy for your opponent to just push bakc so try and get some more variation on the spins you produce, maybe some sidespin or topspin which isn't difficult to produce with a BH serve. Also, it seems wierd to me that your FH serve isn't producing enough spin with your Hurricane 3, a very spinny rubber, if you manage to get your serve to work it'll help you out a ton, just practice even if it's boring.

Recently I found out about ITTF Education, here's a 3 part "conference" about service with some examples and a video that I found really helped me with my service when I still played shakhand, take special notice of the grip, brush and point of contact. Overall it will improve your game to learn a good service that your opponent can't just push back without hesitation.

https://www.ittfeducation.com/csilla-batorfi-service-ritual-part-1/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VA36jKzJY

Hope some of it helps

In my opinion the multiball 3-point loop against backspin exercise is one of the most demanding aerobic exercises in any sport. It requires a ridiculous amount of stamina to do it for 10 minutes straight.

Which player does it for 10 minutes straight? Youtube Liu Guoliang multiball Xu Xin, ZJK, ML and you'll see they do it for a maximum of a few minutes and then rest. It's important to practice with quality.

perham said:

In my opinion the multiball 3-point loop against backspin exercise is one of the most demanding aerobic exercises in any sport. It requires a ridiculous amount of stamina to do it for 10 minutes straight.

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RidTheKid said:

Which player does it for 10 minutes straight? Youtube Liu Guoliang multiball Xu Xin, ZJK, ML and you'll see they do it for a maximum of a few minutes and then rest. It's important to practice with quality.

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Agreed. And it does not have to be 3 point. Truthfully, like this:


Where the placement is changed and there is repetition but also some randomness so it is always in a slightly different place and Ma Long has to read where the next ball will be, but it is not always a big change, that kind of drill would be ideal. Of course, maybe a little toned down for the level of the player. But some randomness and some consistency. So patterns get repeated but then they get changed.

Mechanical drills like 2 point and 3 point drills have their place. And should be done as well. But a drill like in that video of ML being fed by LGL may be more useful.

With someone good at feeding multiball and/or a good training partner, this is a skill that should not take too long to develop. And when you are decent at it, then you get to choose when to open and when to push.

As I said above, you can see, at the highest levels, like, even ML an FZD, they do choose to push sometimes. But it is always because they are using it tactically. Not because there is no other choice. When your opponent is expecting you to attack, sometimes pushing is an excellent tactic to get them to give you something even better to attack. But pushing should be a choice. Not something that your opponent forces on you. And to make that the case, you simply have to train the skills of looping vs backspin.

Even Ma Long still trains this even though he is amazing at it.

RidTheKid said:

Which player does it for 10 minutes straight? Youtube Liu Guoliang multiball Xu Xin, ZJK, ML and you'll see they do it for a maximum of a few minutes and then rest. It's important to practice with quality.

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Not all multiball is fast or random multiball. I know a coach who had his student doing the drill for a long time to embed footwork and stroke preparation discipline. I agree with perham that looping and moving across all positions to play forehand vs backspin can be taxing. It all depends on what you are using the drill for.

I think posting a video of ma long Will not help the OP.

The OP should Do the motion more upward and get a higher arc so he just puts the ball om the table. Also Do not think he should play forehand from bh corner the first ball. He need very good forehand to benefit from this. Better to learn how to play bh in my opinion.

The Idea of posting a video is good. OP can look at youtube and learn how to loop.

Lula said:

I think posting a video of ma long Will not help the OP.

The OP should Do the motion more upward and get a higher arc so he just puts the ball om the table. Also Do not think he should play forehand from bh corner the first ball. He need very good forehand to benefit from this. Better to learn how to play bh in my opinion.

The Idea of posting a video is good. OP can look at youtube and learn how to loop.

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I posted a video of a multiball drill vs backspin. For the drill. Not for Ma Long. I think that kind of drill is better than something like a 3 point drill with multiball for developing the attack vs backspin, which had been recommended. If you read my post, you can tell what I posted for and that I said the drill should be adjusted for the player.

It also makes sense to me that, you would be harder pressed to find a good video of a fitting drill for multiball for a low level player whereas, it was pretty easy to find a drill that would make sense for training attack vs backspin using multiball with a high level player.

The drill I posted would be a good way to train multiball. It was not for ML or how he attacks backspin.

The pace of this multiball drill kind of makes sense:


This drill is for the player (Ma Lin) to develop the skill of attacking backspin balls that are to the wide BH with his FH. See how he resets to the receive position over and over and then steps to open with the FH on the wide BH.

For a lower level player, showing this video would not be for the stroke or angle of stroke that Ma Lin is using. It would be for the fact that MULTIBALL DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FAST to be beneficial.

Ma Lin is training footwork and attacking backspin in the video and the pace is not very fast. So, I am also posting this for the idea that THE DRILL, even though it is multiball, if it is being used to develop the skills of attacking backspin, do not have to be fast. They just have to make you need to adjust to the placement of the ball and get you comfortable attacking backspin.

raymond3601 said:

I usually use my backhand backspin serve to start off and the push rally starts.

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I started serving with my backhand consistently after watching this video: https://youtu.be/Q7Q-SSdjOEM. The part where Aruna describes the shoulder motion so as to serve top/side spin. It's not actually that difficult after a bit of practice and once you master it, for me at least it was a revolution. If you can keep your general motion to always look similar and mix in all sorts of variation, it's really easy to have your opponent pop up the ball even up to a fair level (I mean, it's good enough for Aruna). You can also do all sorts of serves where if you contact the ball underneath coming in with a backspin motion but actually contacting a fraction after you start to pull back backwards, the ball results in a dead float with little to no energy which you can aim second bounce to the elbow. It should come in slower than your gesture makes it look and so many people stand ready for a flip or loop, then flinch as it comes so slow and doesn't spin as expected, before they do a late surge and a weak loop that finds the net or is easily returned. If they do push, unless they are proper choppers there'll be no juice in it and you can let fly. Cheap tricks but that's influenced how I play so much. In my first period of TT, it was all "put as much spin into the ball as you can and hope for the best".

The ma lin videohas at least peak timing when hitting the ball so a beginner would have difficulty doing it during matches. I would ratherr have him pivot then loop the ball while it is going down just to maie it spinny and also easier.

UpSideDownCarl said:

The pace of this multiball drill kind of makes sense:

This drill is for the player (Ma Lin) to develop the skill of attacking backspin balls that are to the wide BH with his FH. See how he resets to the receive position over and over and then steps to open with the FH on the wide BH.

For a lower level player, showing this video would not be for the stroke or angle of stroke that Ma Lin is using. It would be for the fact that MULTIBALL DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FAST to be beneficial.

Ma Lin is training footwork and attacking backspin in the video and the pace is not very fast. So, I am also posting this for the idea that THE DRILL, even though it is multiball, if it is being used to develop the skills of attacking backspin, do not have to be fast. They just have to make you need to adjust to the placement of the ball and get you comfortable attacking backspin.

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I actually agree with Lula. Posting videos for someone who hasn't shown his video or his technique can miss the boat entirely. I also agree with you in the sense that this is a forum not a private chat so information can help many people. But most of the players who are at the level where the Ma Lin or Ma Long videos would be helpful have other resources.

Backspin loop requires you to read the ball as well and looping in general is something that everyone develops. If we saw video of OP, then we could have a more accurate assessment.

As someone who has been in pushing rallies as an adult learner, picking the ball you can read is very important both for looping and pushing.

4h loop by Coach step by step

https://youtu.be/xZBKZS7ZLCs

NextLevel said:

I actually agree with Lula. Posting videos for someone who hasn't shown his video or his technique can miss the boat entirely. I also agree with you in the sense that this is a forum not a private chat so information can help many people. But most of the players who are at the level where the Ma Lin or Ma Long videos would be helpful have other resources.

Backspin loop requires you to read the ball as well and looping in general is something that everyone develops. If we saw video of OP, then we could have a more accurate assessment.

As someone who has been in pushing rallies as an adult learner, picking the ball you can read is very important both for looping and pushing.

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Okay. But, again, I am merely showing the drill for what the drill might look like. And that kind of drill can help someone develop that skill.

It is true we don't know at all what the OP looks like when he plays. So, it is true, this may be beside the point and he may actually need to learn how to counterhit and then drive first before he even learns to loop. But if you were training the skill, someone feeding one backspin ball at a time for you to try and attack is a good way to develop that skill. As you do it, you start to learn.

Learning how to give back a deep DEAD push to middle is a great way to get a more predictable ball to initiate a topspin attack.

Learning how to read the ball and adjust grip pressure and impact is key.

Once opponent knows he/she mis-read the dead spin and is about to get attacked can really mess with opponent's mindset... maybe get them to take more risk on low percentage chances.

quick footwork is key to be able to loop long pushes.

you have to be early in a good position and not too close to the table. It helps being always in movement. Playing against a chopper or being fed multiball at a slow speed (like in matchplay vs a chopper) is an excellent exercise. Then practice 3rd ball serve short, and ask the partner to push deep agressively. The vertical component of the swing is of course necessary against backspin but do not forget to always add a significant horizontal component else all balls will go long off the table.

When late against a long push, it maybe against the natural tendency, but its very necessary to be relaxed and go for a soft shot brushing the ball than trying some stupid fluke trying to hit the ball hard.

to make an aggressive and vicious push with BH, here is the "tip" I received from my coach:
add sidespin.

against a ball coming from a pendulum serve (or same kind of spin), push the ball to the opponent's BH contacting the ball on the RIGHT, and you can even try to aim the short side of the table, it will be safe.
if you get it right, you will notice its also possible to make a stop receive short to the FH using the same bat angle and trick the opponent !

against a ball coming from a BH / YG / shovel / hammer etc.... or a traditional BH push,
contact the ball on the LEFT side.

the sidespin is countering the sidespin from the server, so its easy to make an agressive shot ( speed and/or spin) and get an easier ball next

Lula said:

I think posting a video of ma long Will not help the OP.

The OP should Do the motion more upward and get a higher arc so he just puts the ball om the table. Also Do not think he should play forehand from bh corner the first ball. He need very good forehand to benefit from this. Better to learn how to play bh in my opinion.

The Idea of posting a video is good. OP can look at youtube and learn how to loop.

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I have to agree 100% with this. I was watching my son at a training camp last week where he was working on playing loops flatter on both the bh & fh sides and it needs excellent timing and wrist speed. He has been looping both bh & fh for a while with a much more open bat, a bit like Tom Lodziak shows in one of his videos (where the bat ends up almost above head height), now he has moved on to a much flatter shot and it is incredibly impressive when it works but he certainly couldn't have started looping like this, everything would have ended up in the net.