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    1. Top | #61
      usualsuspect is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by langel View Post
      According to ML's textbook Aruna has no FH at all. But somehow it works.
      Again, this is not about functionality or utility. I'm just talking about the form.
      If you want to, you could use tennis FH stroke for table tennis. It works, but is that good form for tt?
      I thought I've very clearly defined the parameters of the discussion, oh well...

    2. Top | #62
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      For info, as a result of what I deem bad behavior in a PM chain with me, thom has been given a two week ban.
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    4. Top | #63
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      Since usualsuspect has repeatedly claimed that Ma Long has the same forehand at 14 that he does now, I tried to find video to support his case. Unfortunately most of the videos on the internet have been deleted. But I found this one.

      Did Ma Long had the same forehand then that he does now? You be the judge.

      https://youtu.be/OM3YNEnbMPs
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    6. Top | #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect View Post
      Again, this is not about functionality or utility. I'm just talking about the form.
      If you want to, you could use tennis FH stroke for table tennis. It works, but is that good form for tt?
      I thought I've very clearly defined the parameters of the discussion, oh well...
      Yeah, speaking about the form, its ok and its right.
      But what I try to say is that putting everything in a template is not a good idea.
      There are so many beatifully templated players, who may fit perfectly on every page of the ML's textbook, but who would never reach WR 100, or even exit the club level. In fact all that fits are just illusional. Noone alse can be ML, or XX or TH or whoever.
      I think that its much more the individuality, which sometimes may look awkward, like the case with Aruna, that makes the sport to evolve and develope and that makes it interesting.

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    8. Top | #65
      usualsuspect is offline
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      The lack of emphasis on form is exactly why no other county could rival China on table tennis.
      In tt, form is the most important.
      It's true that many players with good form do not become world champions.
      However, players with bad form definitely have even less chance of becoming Olympic champions.
      Just look at past gold medal winners for olympics or WTTC, why are the majority of them Chinese?
      And what's the one thing all Chinese players have in common? Good form.

      I'm not saying everyone should copy ML's form. However, all Chinese players' FH stroke are based on the same template, with small adjustments for their particular body type and play style.

      Imagine how good Aruna could have been, if he were trained by the Chinese.

    9. Top | #66
      phorkyas is offline
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      But what is perfect ('textbook') form against consistency and success?

      I'm in the same boat as many that I saw TH's forehand and thought: that looks awkward (long swing but not full arm extension?). As if he tried to combine the disadvantages of Euro and China style forehand: lesser power, but still longer recovery.

      But, truth, somehow I had a similar feeling of oddity with Kreanga's backhand: something is off there, I thought. Looked again, and it's probably just that he starts extremly low as if executing a FH stroke. So it's not effecient, but can you honestly call it "bad"? Works for him. TT has such a range of techniques, we shouldn't normalize too strictly.

    10. Top | #67
      NextLevel is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect View Post
      The lack of emphasis on form is exactly why no other county could rival China on table tennis.
      In tt, form is the most important.
      It's true that many players with good form do not become world champions.
      However, players with bad form definitely have even less chance of becoming Olympic champions.
      Just look at past gold medal winners for olympics or WTTC, why are the majority of them Chinese?
      And what's the one thing all Chinese players have in common? Good form.

      I'm not saying everyone should copy ML's form. However, all Chinese players' FH stroke are based on the same template, with small adjustments for their particular body type and play style.

      Imagine how good Aruna could have been, if he were trained by the Chinese.
      I generally consider these statements a form of racism. Why don't people talk about how bad the Chinese would have been if Wang Liqin and Kong Linghui didn't train in Europe?

      Nigeria has had generations of good table tennis players and Quadri as good as he is is not necessarily the best of them, he is just the one who gained notoriety in the internet age.

      Maybe he would be a better player, maybe he would have been injured. Who knows?
      Last edited by NextLevel; 08-20-2019 at 05:23 PM.

    11. Top | #68
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      Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect View Post
      The lack of emphasis on form is exactly why no other county could rival China on table tennis.
      In tt, form is the most important.
      It's true that many players with good form do not become world champions.
      However, players with bad form definitely have even less chance of becoming Olympic champions.
      Just look at past gold medal winners for olympics or WTTC, why are the majority of them Chinese?
      And what's the one thing all Chinese players have in common? Good form.

      I'm not saying everyone should copy ML's form. However, all Chinese players' FH stroke are based on the same template, with small adjustments for their particular body type and play style.

      Imagine how good Aruna could have been, if he were trained by the Chinese.
      The one thing all Chinese players have in common is being the result of a Darwinian process that puts you through multiple levels of competition and trial. Form is at best an accidental result of that competition and is far less meaningful. As I remind people, no one is skeptical about the results of matches which is what puts you on the team. Everyone can debate form because it doesn't put you on the team.

    12. Top | #69
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I read the post and coach Kurasame said the same that Harimoto needed to expand his attack patterns using Ma Long's example.
      Found another article that delves deeper into Miyazaki's opinion. Similar to China, it appears there are now 2 rivaling schools of thought in Japan.

      2019/5/5
      https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2019050400482&g=spo
      ◇決定打はやはりフォアか
       「バックでできることはバックでやる」。日本卓球協会の宮崎義仁強化本部長は卓球日本がどん底から盛り返せた理由を、バック側の球もフォアで打つオールフォアのスタイルから脱却したからだと、盛んに強調してきた。

       バックはフォアよりラケットの振り幅が小さく、腰の回転を使って打つのでもないため、小柄な日本選手でも打球点を速くして攻撃的に使える。この2年、日本の若手は前陣でバックを多用する高速卓球で、中国などの外国勢を倒した。今までの日本と違う戦い方に、相手が戸惑った面も多分にある。

       これにも世界は対応した。強豪国の選手でなくとも、相手の反射神経が良くてラケットの角度を合わされれば、速く打っても返って来る。体格の良い外国選手は、左右に振ってもラケットが届く。チキータ対策も練られ、バックの比重が大きい今日の日本卓球の特長が、得点につながりにくくなった。

       宮崎本部長は「特にプラスチックボールになって球速が遅くなり、回転量が減った今では、決めるのに威力があるのはフォア。バックでは若干パワー不足。バックでタイミングを取ってフォアで決める方がいい時代になった。韓国は若年世代からそう指導している」という。

       そもそも人体の構造を考えれば、フォアの方が強く打てるのは自明の理。乱暴な例えだが、アントニオ猪木のビンタも「フォア」だ。日本のバックが強くなっても、中国関係者は「最後はフォア。それは変わらない」と言ってきた。
      *The Decisive Shot is still the FH
      Yoshihito Miyazaki, Head of Development Headquarter of the JTTA, vigorously stressed that the reason Japan was able to return from rock bottom is because it has moved away from the all-FH style where shots to the BH side are returned with the FH.

      Since the BH has a smaller swing than the FH and is not hit with the rotation of the hips, even a small Japanese player can use it aggressively by hitting on the rise. In the past 2 years, young Japanese players have defeated foreign countries such as China with high-speed table tennis that uses a lot of BHs close to the table. There have been many times where the opponent is confused by the different playing style of Japan.

      The world has responded to this. Even if it is not a player from a strong country, fast shots can be returned if the opponent's reflexes are good and the racket angle matches up. Foreign players with good physiques can reach even if they swing left and right. Countermeasures for the chiquita were also devised, and the feature of contemporary Japanese table tennis with a huge focus on BH has become hard to score.

      "Especially now that the plastic ball has slowed down and the amount of rotation has decreased, it is the FH that has the decisive power. BH is a little under-powered. This is an era to seize the timing with BH and finish with FH. This is how South Korea teaches the younger generation," said Miyazaki.

      ...Even if Japan's BH has become stronger, “It still comes down to the FH," said a Chinese official.

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    14. Top | #70
      NextLevel is online now
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      In the middle of this ERT video, there is a segment on Wang Manyu. Like I said, the results are important and you leave the rest to the coaches.

      https://youtu.be/QC866oJ2z2w

    15. Top | #71
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      That part is from the documentary for Marvellous 12 2017.


    16. Top | #72
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      The one thing all Chinese players have in common is being the result of a Darwinian process that puts you through multiple levels of competition and trial. Form is at best an accidental result of that competition and is far less meaningful. As I remind people, no one is skeptical about the results of matches which is what puts you on the team. Everyone can debate form because it doesn't put you on the team.
      Dude, I don't what you are talking about here. I thought we are discussing Harimoto's FH, and that all top Chinese players have good form with their FH strokes.
      If you really want to argue that not all top Chinese players have good form with their FH stroke. That's fine.
      Or maybe you are just focusing on the merit of the random example I made at the end of my previous post.

      Anyways, I'm not talking about something ethereal here. You can see if a player has good form, like with your eyeballs.
      I mean the fact that we are having a discussion on what's wrong with Harimoto's FH is telling.
      Why isn't anyone asking the same question about ML's FH or Lin Yun-Ju's FH? Because your eyes can see how good their FH strokes are.
      Why does Harimoto's FH feel flawed? Again, because your eyes are telling you that something is off about his FH strokes.

      Now, whether Harimoto could fix his FH stroke or how far he could go with the flawed FH are different discussions altogether.

    17. Top | #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by phorkyas View Post
      But what is perfect ('textbook') form against consistency and success?

      But, truth, somehow I had a similar feeling of oddity with Kreanga's backhand: something is off there, I thought. Looked again, and it's probably just that he starts extremly low as if executing a FH stroke. So it's not effecient, but can you honestly call it "bad"? Works for him. TT has such a range of techniques, we shouldn't normalize too strictly.
      I think the use of the term "form" and throwing around terms like "textbook" obfuscates the point a bit. It's really about biomechanic efficiency.

      It so happens, that "form" and "textbook" have had enough time that they've settled on something that is relatively efficient. Even these have changed, as modern chinese players are discouraged from using waist rotation too much on the forehand, though they will still use it when they need extra power.

      I don't get the same feeling with Kreanga's backhand. While most backhands were optimised towards being short quick strokes at the time, Kreanga's was more geared towards eeking out raw power from his body. While it doesn't look "Textbook" because it differed from the convention of how backhands were played at the time, it doesn't look biomechanically inefficient to me. I see his backhand and I understand what his body is trying to optimise towards (hitting the ball really bloody hard on the backhand), his stroke makes perfect sense in that context.

      TH's forehand is different, it looks off in a way that genuinely does confuse me. It seems off to the eye in a way that doesn't immediately make obvious what it's optimised towards. It almost seems to combine the worst aspects of the extended arm, and the bent arm forehands, that doesn't seem like it could arrive in a way that comes naturally?
      Last edited by Hysteresis; 08-21-2019 at 12:11 AM.

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    19. Top | #74
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      Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect View Post
      Dude, I don't what you are talking about here. I thought we are discussing Harimoto's FH, and that all top Chinese players have good form with their FH strokes.
      If you really want to argue that not all top Chinese players have good form with their FH stroke. That's fine.
      Or maybe you are just focusing on the merit of the random example I made at the end of my previous post.

      Anyways, I'm not talking about something ethereal here. You can see if a player has good form, like with your eyeballs.
      I mean the fact that we are having a discussion on what's wrong with Harimoto's FH is telling.
      Why isn't anyone asking the same question about ML's FH or Lin Yun-Ju's FH? Because your eyes can see how good their FH strokes are.
      Why does Harimoto's FH feel flawed? Again, because your eyes are telling you that something is off about his FH strokes.

      Now, whether Harimoto could fix his FH stroke or how far he could go with the flawed FH are different discussions altogether.
      You have made statements in the past about form determining whether someone makes the Chinese team vs results. My point is that people don't talk about your flaws when you mostly win points on balls to your forehand. When you lose points, people ask why and ask you to fix the stroke. People who focus on form often talk about how ugly Timo Boll's forehand is. Or Jun Mizutani. Or Quadri Aruna. Then it becomes more like a China fanboy syndrome rather than focusing on whether the strokes win or lose matches.

      To me, it is obvious that Harimoto is continually working on his stroke. As he gets stronger, his forehand will continue to become more and more conventional. Like I said, the coach is the one who will address the issue, the player will continue to work on it, but his placement on the team will be determined by wins and losses. Not by visual inspection of his form. For a 15 year old to be able to hit winners past Ma Long is impressive. The biggest thing he is missing is true strength.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIgxVnUjSQ

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    21. Top | #75
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      Everyone plays differently. There are really not so much right or wrong technique, more like guidelines. Or i feel so the longer i am in the world of tabletennis. As long as you get a good result from the motion you do, get out alot of energy, then you are good to go. If you win the points and the matches then it works for you.

      In my opinion Schlager looks like a robot, but he is proably the last european world champion for a very very very long time. And Timo Boll change more grip than a 70 year old grandmother that have never touched a racket. In the textbook in tabletennis you are not suppose to change the grip that much, because it is not suppose to work. But this guy is still the best european player since like forever and it seems like he do not want any let go of that title anytime soon.

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    23. Top | #76
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      Well, every personal textbook is written on a personal roadmap.
      At the age of 16 Ma Long had Juniors titles only.
      His first ITTF Championship was in 2007 at the age of 19.
      Harimoto won his first Seniors Championship at the age of 14.

      So, speaking of textbooks, there should be something very special in the one of Harimoto.
      Let us see what he has to write in the next few years. For now he proved to be a better writer, no matter how do you like his style of writing.
      Last edited by langel; 08-21-2019 at 09:48 AM.

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    25. Top | #77
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      In my opinion the "issue" with TH's FH is all about timing. He has a very aggressive BH and likes to stay very close to the table to pressure his opponents. That's much easier to do with the BH, which is a shorter stroke, than with the FH. So he developed a FH based on waist rotation and arm extension because it's faster than generating power from the ground. The problems appear when his opponents target his elbow, he isn't able to rotate properly and lifts his elbow to compensate, generating spin but much less power. They are trying to shorten his movement so he can still play aggressively of the bounce. Sure, he can try to step a little farther from the table to get more time to generate power, but then he would develop a different play style, perhaps more close to LYJ.

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    27. Top | #78
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      Tactics depend on many things, including the oponent.
      Vs ZZ Harimoto felt well enough on his comfortable distance all through teh match and ZZ coudn't manage to push him a single step back.
      I've said above that his FH is better for closer distance, and I believe that its in his roadmap to develope a powerfull mid and longer distance FH, but it will come with his physical growth.
      At age of 14 both TH and ML looked the same, but at age of 16 ML looked much more stronger physically. Yet TH already has a better record for his age. In fact - the best ever.

    28. Top | #79
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      Two things that I think he did better in Bulgaria than he's done in the past is keeping his elbow low and keeping his follow through short. Since he plays relatively close to the table, shortening his follow through is very important because he doesn't have much time to recover, and I think this helped him in his consistency on the forehand. He still has lapses, but I love seeing the improvement.

    29. Top | #80
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      Oh God I remember not to long ago his forehand being touted on this forum as one of the best and I remember thinking to myself "what bullshitery is this?". LOL SMH.

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