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    1. Top | #41
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by thom View Post
      I already stated we were not talking about the same thing so I do know why the confusion. I did not watch the video and read some of the post that came before. I was just going by the thread's subject.
      In other words, you don't understand the threads subject because you are unwilling to study it. Then why complain when someone says you miss the point since you are admitting to missing it?
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    2. Top | #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by thom View Post
      I don't know if you are serious. He was WR 5 when this relatively weak FH thing came out. If winning proves he has a relatively strong FH why were there these discussions. I think he is still WR 6 so beating Freitas and Zhao proves anything???? that should have been 4 and 5 respectively
      I think his achievements and wins at 16 years old, with such a "weak" FH is impressive. And I don't think the opponents he has beaten so far regardless of ranking are weak. Maybe you have too high expectations of him?

      It will be interesting to see his FH development in the next few years. He's still so young, it's difficult to know what will happen.

    3. Top | #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      In other words, you don't understand the threads subject because you are unwilling to study it. Then why complain when someone says you miss the point since you are admitting to missing it?
      I didn't know what you were referring to with that stmt but I do know I was answering to a combination of stmts by Takkyu / Yoass so in that context you were missing that conversation. Do I have to read the whole thread just to respond to a couple of comments.

    4. Top | #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by thom View Post
      How many FH winners did HT make (vs losers) in this match?
      TH vs ZZ

      Total FH won 20
      Attack FH won 14
      Push FH won 6


      Total FH lost 17
      Attack FH lost 8
      Push FH lost 3
      Block FH lost 6

      Happy?

    5. Top | #45
      thom is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Richie View Post
      I think his achievements and wins at 16 years old, with such a "weak" FH is impressive. And I don't think the opponents he has beaten so far regardless of ranking are weak. Maybe you have too high expectations of him?

      It will be interesting to see his FH development in the next few years. He's still so young, it's difficult to know what will happen.
      they have to be weaker if they are ranked so much below him (barring injuries / lack of participation) and those were not the case at least with Freitas - I don't know the story with Zhao. By bringing up 16 and achievements do not change the fact we are talking about his FH relative to his rank and on these recent exchgs only about the Bulgaria Open.

    6. Top | #46
      thom is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by langel View Post
      TH vs ZZ

      Total FH won 20
      Attack FH won 14
      Push FH won 6




      Total FH lost 17
      Attack FH lost 8
      Push FH lost 3
      Block FH lost 6

      Happy?
      Thank you. 20 to 17 in his favour and if you take out the pushes about even. In both cases respectable but not favouring him. no reason to avoid his FH as implied by Takkyu / Yoass

    7. Top | #47
      Richie is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by thom View Post
      they have to be weaker if they are ranked so much below him (barring injuries / lack of participation) and those were not the case at least with Freitas - I don't know the story with Zhao. By bringing up 16 and achievements do not change the fact we are talking about his FH relative to his rank and on these recent exchgs only about the Bulgaria Open.
      And I don't think his FH is that weak relative to his rank considering the players he has beaten (not just those in Bulgaria Open). Could it be better? Yes and they have clearly been working on that.

      Regardless, I think it's very impressive that he can get to where he is at if his FH really is as flawed as everyone says. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.

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    9. Top | #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by Richie View Post
      And I don't think his FH is that weak relative to his rank considering the players he has beaten (not just those in Bulgaria Open). Could it be better? Yes and they have clearly been working on that.

      Regardless, I think it's very impressive that he can get to where he is at if his FH really is as flawed as everyone says. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.
      ok, if you want to keep your perspective but 1) I did not use words like flawed and 2) I want to maintain weak / relative .

    10. Top | #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by thom View Post
      Thank you. 20 to 17 in his favour and if you take out the pushes about even. In both cases respectable but not favouring him. no reason to avoid his FH as implied by Takkyu / Yoass
      Its nonsensen.
      In live play you can't clasify a shot category as avoidable or not, as you don't know the purpose and the result. It may be a killer, or it may be a tactical step to a BH killer or whatever. And it may be a loss, but who knows. Statsics make the already made just more visible. And this very statistics do show you're wrong. No excuse and no further blah-blah.

    11. Top | #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by langel View Post
      Its nonsensen.
      In live play you can't clasify a shot category as avoidable or not, as you don't know the purpose and the result. It may be a killer, or it may be a tactical step to a BH killer or whatever. And it may be a loss, but who knows. Statsics make the already made just more visible. And this very statistics do show you're wrong. No excuse and no further blah-blah.
      yes, brilliant response, but could you tell me what you read from the stats. i know you said a bunch of stuff but it didn't say anything. the only thing i got from that is you said I was wrong and should shut up - other than that no coherent train of thought or clarity - perhaps you would want to rewrite the whole thing - you could repeat the part i understood if it helps.
      BTW I look further into the match - just waiting for your clarity before I will respond

    12. Top | #51
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      Okay. Right now I see a bunch of people on one side of an argument and thom on the other side. Now in looking, it seems that thom responds over and over to each person.

      I am not sure anyone is going to change thom's position. And I have a feeling thom is not going to change anyone else's position. I am also not sure much of the argument is in good faith.

      thom, I am saying this directly to you: stop. I will lock the thread if I have to. But it is better for you if you stop so I don't have to.

      The rest of you, no more comments on this that are directed towards thom.

      Respect each other and respect that there is not really any more to be said on this subject.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:50 AM.
      Spin Everything.

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    14. Top | #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by thom View Post
      I didn't know what you were referring to with that stmt but I do know I was answering to a combination of stmts by Takkyu / Yoass so in that context you were missing that conversation. Do I have to read the whole thread just to respond to a couple of comments.
      And to clarify my little contribution, here's what triggered me. There's this perception, repeated over and over, that TH's game has been read by now. His game is deeply flawed, his technique fatally flawed, the surprise factor is over, the CNT (as a whole, apparently) now easily manoeuvers into a full exploitation of these fundamental weaknesses.

      To me, a focused discussion on one aspect of TH's game is very interesting. There are much merits to this, and I find the development of TH's technique (and tactics) of TH as a still physically fast developing young adult very interesting. Rapid growth is a phenomenal thing to watch. However, it is also an easy trampoline for an echo-chamber for that "TH's FH is crap" meme.

      So here we have TH going through a tournament. I've followed it, and having seen quite a bit of serious high-level play from both TH and his opponents throughout, do think it a bit respectless to pretend any easy wins. Even the belief that a deeply flawed player could achieve this is is beyond me.

      And then, the ZZ final. Remember that ongoing theme, repeated over and over again, about the glaring deficiencies in TH's game, now fully decoded and easily exploited by the CNT, with that pathetic excuse for a FH as a cornerstone assumption? Well, here's a CNT player. One with serious capacities. The match was a strong one.

      And with all that talk about TH being pwned by the CNT by now, his FH being a laughable excuse, what I've seen is a match where a powerful (and fullgrown) CNT player chose to press the BH. I didn't see an easy exploitation of a fundamentally unsound FH. What I did see was pretty much contrary to that. It was actually the usual scheme of things: once a top level player gets to unleash full FH power, the point is over.

      So I put a little weight on countering that "weak FH easily put to shame by the CNT" meme. Using fewer words. And I did that in a litle bit of conversation in which we did discuss zeio's video, and some of us (including me) were saying we'd been observing positive development in precisely this area ("all hall the Nu FH").

      It's a matter of perception and judgement. Preconceptions play a role; people tend to enforce their preconceptions, and dismiss contrary evidence (two well-known psychological, detrimental, mechanisms). I do not believe for one second that I'm an exception to that bit of human cognitive psychology. Yet I also think oft-repeated easy dismissals, such as the easy dismissal of TH because of a supposedly metaphysically flawed FH at 15, form memes that constitute and enforce such preconceptions, and consider it useful to tone them down a bit. Or much, if possible.
      Last edited by yoass; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:34 AM.

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    16. Top | #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by yoass View Post
      And to clarify my little contribution, here's what triggered me. There's this perception, repeated over and over, that TH's game has been read by now. His game is deeply flawed, his technique fatally flawed, the surprise factor is over, the CNT (as a whole, apparently) now easily manoeuvers into a full exploitation of these fundamental weaknesses.

      To me, a focused discussion on one aspect of TH's game is very interesting. There are much merits to this, and I find the development of TH's technique (and tactics) of TH has a still physically fast developing young adult very interesting. Rapid growth is a phenomenal thing to watch. However, it is also an easy trampoline for an echo-chamber for that "TH's FH is crap" meme.

      So here we have TH going through a tournament. I've followed it, and having seen quite a bit of serious high-level play from both TH and his opponents throughout, do think it a bit respectless to pretend any easy wins. Even the belief that a deeply flawed player could achieve this is is beyond me.

      And than, the ZZ final. Remember that ongoing theme, repeated over and over again, about the glaring deficiencies in TH's game, now fully decoded and easily exploited by the CNT, with that pathetic excuse for a FH as a cornerstone assumption? Well, here's a CNT player. One with serious capacities. The match was a strong one.

      And with all that talk about TH being pwned by the CNT by now, his FH being a laughable excuse, what I've seen is a match where a powerful (and fullgrown) CNT player chose to press the BH. I didn't see an easy exploitation of a fundamentally unsound FH. What I did see was pretty much contrary to that. It was actually the usual scheme of things: once a top level player is allowed to unleash the full FH, the point is over.

      So I put a little weight on countering that "weak FH easily put to shame by the CNT" meme. Using fewer words. And I did that in a litle bit of conversation in which we did discuss zeio's video, and some of us (including me) were saying we'd been observing positive development in precisely this area ("all hall the Nu FH").

      It's a matter of perception and judgement. Preconceptions play a role; people tend to enforce their preconceptions, and dismiss contrary evidence (two well-known psychological, detrimental, mechanisms). I do not believe for one second that I'm an exeption to that bit of human cognitive psychology. Yet I also think oft-repeated easy dismissals, such as the easy dismissal of TH because of a supposedly metaphysically flawed FH at 15, form a meme that constitutes and enforces such preconceptions, and think it useful to tone them down a bit. Or much, if possible.
      Yoass, please read my post directly prior to yours.

      No more comments "engaging" thom in this discussion. I trust that you were writing this while I posted. But no more.

      Nothing more needs to be said.

    17. Top | #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Yoass, please read my post directly prior to yours.

      No more comments "engaging" thom in this discussion. I trust that you were writing this while I posted. But no more.

      Nothing more needs to be said.
      Yes, your post crossed mine and I am in support of de-escalation. I'm sorry that happened and will hold my tongue. Fingers.

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    19. Top | #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by yoass View Post
      Yes, your post crossed mine and I am in support of de-escalation. I'm sorry that happened and will hold my tongue. Fingers.
      Thanks.

    20. Top | #56
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      His forehand is good, itis just that his backhand is better. Would be interesting to knowhow much they work on makinghis bh even better ans implementing it even more.

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    22. Top | #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      The video from zeio is a bit old and was made in 2018. Some Chinese players/coaches believe Jun Mizutani and Timo Boll or Dima have bad forehands too so it is all opinions. The point is that if any of the aforementioned guys, and Harimoto can join them, has such a bad forehand, why so opponents not go there all the time? As the saying sometimes goes, a bad forehand is often still more valuable than a good backhand.

      It is important to keep context and remember that these are just opinions. His forehand is not so bad that he hasn't hit winners past the top players. The specific issues with his forehand are usually off the table rallying (which he generally doesn't do) and short service return (which he is not that bad at either).
      The other post was long so folks probably skipped it but the results at WTTC 2019 got Miyazaki to reconsider JNT's overemphasis on the BH.

      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      2019/4/29
      ...
      South Korea showed its power at this tournament, as An Jaehyun, 157th in the world, earned the bronze medal, defeating Tomokazu Harimoto along the way. What is eye-catching is the powerful forehand decisive power that Japanese players do not possess. Miyazaki of Development Headquarter pointed out that “Japan is trying to do everything with backhand, but that's not enough power. We need to train the forehand a little more."
      In retrospect, that defeat was foreshadowed when Harimoto said his FH was sealed in the group match against ML at the Asian Cup.

      https://www.jiji.com/jc/v4?id=tt_ach...ng201904050001
      「きょうはフォアに来るボールは相手が決めに来たボールばかりで、カウンターが精いっぱいだった。自分がチャンスをつくってフォアを使えることがなかった。フォアの実力はついてきたと思いますが、きょうは封じられた」
      ...I never had a chance to use the FH. I think my FH has gotten better, but it got sealed today.


    23. Top | #58
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      The other post was long so folks probably skipped it but the results at WTTC 2019 got Miyazaki to reconsider JNT's overemphasis on the BH.



      In retrospect, that defeat was foreshadowed when Harimoto said his FH was sealed in the group match against ML at the Asian Cup.

      https://www.jiji.com/jc/v4?id=tt_ach...ng201904050001

      ...I never had a chance to use the FH. I think my FH has gotten better, but it got sealed today.

      I read the post and coach Kurasame said the same that Harimoto needed to expand his attack patterns using Ma Long's example.

    24. Top | #59
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      Very good information from zeio as always, but kind of missing the point.
      Just because HT is trying to expand the utility of his FH in more offensive role, doesn't mean his FH stroke isn't flawed.

      I'll use this analogy. A poorly designed car can still be fully functional, it's just less efficient than a lot of other cars.
      With a good driver, the poorly designed car can still win many races. But you need good driver and good car to win at the highest level.
      HT knows how to use his flawed FH very well. He's the competent driver in the analogy, too bad his car isn't that good. (just my opinion)

      Another way is to compare HT's FH stroke to ML's textbook FH stroke. I think everyone agrees that ML's FH stroke has really good form. Is HT's FH stroke as good as ML's? (I'm not talking about power here, just the form)
      This really comes down to individual opinions. If you think HT's form is as good as ML's, then HT has a good FH stroke. If not, then it's flawed.

    25. Top | #60
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      According to ML's textbook Aruna has no FH at all. But somehow it works.

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