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      Andre74 is offline
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      Short pips out curious

      Hello everybody.
      I’ve had on the back of my mind the idea of trying short pips on FH. My natural FH is quite flat but I’ve been working towards improving my topspin as I want to improve consistency. However, If I wanted to try these now more fashionable short pips, what would be a decent rubber to start with?
      I guess I would be after something that allows me to hit flat with precision and that is no spin sensitive to allow me to barbarically flat hit incoming spinny balls without having to worry much about the incoming spin, if that is the idea.
      I’m not sure that is the player type I want to be but I’m just very curious to see if maybe short pips fits more easily with my instinctive play.

    2. Top | #2
      lasta is online now
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      Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is nothing that will let you barbarically smash balls regardless of spin. Short pips do make smashing more efficient, but you will still have to anticipate and compensate for spin in every shot. You will also have to live with the fact that initiating attacks have less margin for error and what was once a simple loop against backspin will become your highest effort shot.

      If you are serious about learning the nuances of short pips play, i recommend starting with a cheap (but capable) 802 or 802-40 in their 40 or 42 degree sponge versions. I recommend the hardest pips possible for forehand play. Do NOT get the flimsy 35 degree cheese cake of a sponge versions, those are slow and utterly useless.

    3. Top | #3
      Andre74 is offline
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      Thanks for the advice Iasta. I was exaggerating but I would imagine the sensitivity to spin is much lower compared to pips in.. not trying to read spin would turn an already hi-risk strategy into a guaranteed disaster. Your recommendation is very useful, I definitely want a cheap and capable rubber to try it out. What sponge thickness would you recommend?

    4. Top | #4
      lasta is online now
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      For hard rubbers, max thickness especially on the forehand.

      If you do eventually experiment with ESN pips, I recommend 1.8-2mm.

      The idea is that hard pips feel more direct and you can benefit from the better spin capabilities and higher top end speed of thicker sponges. With Soft ESN pips, a max thickness sponge will feel mushy, lowering it to 1.8-2mm will ensure sufficient "bottoming out" so they feel crisp on mid-high impact shots.

      BTW, forehand short pips have much different (and higher) demand on the blade than rubber. The modern trend of soft core high dwell "deep impact" are very bad for smashing. You want stiff, solid, direct, linear and "clean" feeling. Hard to describe the different impact sensations to someone trained in brush stroke but trust that the classic thick 7-ply woods are a good starting point for a reason.

      Cheers,
      Last edited by lasta; 09-09-2019 at 08:52 AM.

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    6. Top | #5
      Simas is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Andre74 View Post
      Thanks for the advice Iasta. I was exaggerating but I would imagine the sensitivity to spin is much lower compared to pips in.. not trying to read spin would turn an already hi-risk strategy into a guaranteed disaster. Your recommendation is very useful, I definitely want a cheap and capable rubber to try it out. What sponge thickness would you recommend?
      I also wanted to try pips on my FH for a long time because I think it would be interesting and could suite somehow to my closer to the table playing style. But somehow resisted, maybe was afraid not to ruin my FH which is quite good IMHO as it is... So keep updated how it goes!

    7. Top | #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Andre74 View Post
      My natural FH is quite flat but I’ve been working towards improving my topspin as I want to improve consistency. However, If I wanted to try these now more fashionable short pips, what would be a decent rubber to start with?
      Well props to you for realizing your style of game. That might sound simple but there are several hitters at our club who hit but don't really spin it all that well. Anyways, for these type of players, I think SPs could at least be something to explore.

      I'd just start out with 802 or 802-40 probably max thickness you can get. They're cheap so you're only out your time and the little price tag if it doesn't work out.

      I think you'll find you like the control they offer. How it's more forgiving and how you can place the ball dang near anywhere you want.

      Couple of things to watch out for.
      - If you play well off the table, then this isn't for you.... Unless you're a chopper which you're not. SPs best when up at the table.
      - If you're getting lobbed on and find smashing lobs with SPs (I always did), consider twiddling to the inverted side on lobs. IDK.
      - Pick your shots. Don't go crazy and think "i have short pips now. I'll just hit through everything & smash." You need the ball to be a certain height or higher. Lower balls you'll have to play a pinch more cautiously & tactically. You can't just spin loop it on the table.

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    9. Top | #7
      Andre74 is offline
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      Great thanks, you guys have reinforced my curiosity and will get a sheet of 802/802-40 (what’s the difference?!) max thickness. Following up on what Iasta added, I’m curious of what good ESN are out there (not for now, just to read about) and mostly, which of my 2 blades to try the pips with. I have a WRM Japanese blade which is I believe off- with inner carbon layers, and a trusty YSE. I like them both for differ reasons but slightly prefer the faster one as I’m playing with MarkVhps which isn’t fast and I like the faster shots I get, so recently I’ve been playing with my inner carbon blade. Alternatively I could upgrade my backhand rubber to a better one on YSE BH and try pips on FH. I spin on backhand, my technique is good there, and surely I will want pips only on FH and possibly learn to twiddle like Suds suggests, sounds like fun!
      (And yes I don’t play well off the table!)
      Last edited by Andre74; 09-09-2019 at 06:28 PM.

    10. Top | #8
      suds79 is offline
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      729 - 802 short pips is more a classic short pips.

      729 - 802-40 is suppose to be the spinnier version. I suppose I'd select that.

      Personally speaking, i don't think there's much of a difference and if given a blind hit test I would struggle to be able to tell the difference. But considering you're coming from inverted, 802-40 might be the slightly safer choice.

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    12. Top | #9
      Andre74 is offline
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      Max thickness I can find for 802-40 is 2mm, the Max seems out of stock everywhere. I could find some Victas at Max but no clue, probably going for the 802-40 at 2.
      How would the YSE work with this rubber?

    13. Top | #10
      lasta is online now
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      (IMO) YSE is pretty slow and flexible, the 802 will feel pretty dead on it, not exactly optimal.

      But if you are just looking to try something out, can't hurt. Try it and see if you like the style before commiting to a new blade. 802 is cheap anyways.

      Victas (102?) is a good rubber. I'm using it on my primary blade now. But test out the style first.
      Last edited by lasta; 09-10-2019 at 03:46 PM.

    14. Top | #11
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      Try something cheap like ritx 802-40 first

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      Ok so, 802-40 tested. I didn’t like it as much as I was hoping, although I really enjoyed some aspects of it.
      Flat shots are so much better and I loved the nostalgic feel (at least for me) of a rubber that feels less technical. I can hit hard without SP already but with SP hard hits feel faster.
      But I think, despite not being satisfied with the amount of spin I produce on FH, I still spin, so the very reduced spin was something I didn’t enjoy, its very limiting.
      I will keep the rubber on a blade and continue to investigate. I found I could use SP very effectively on BH too, but the whole idea was to find a better fit for my FH.
      Interesting experiment but I think I will probably focus on improving my technique with inverted pips both sides. I think I got the SP out of the system and I already have another EJ curiosity.. damn it never stops!

    16. Top | #13
      lasta is online now
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      Take it from other people's experience: your skill will skyrocket when you stop changing equipment.

      You can always restart gear optimization when you get the basic skill down pat.

      Oh and SP is not a less technical rubber.

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    18. Top | #14
      suds79 is offline
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      I think, and this wasn't my idea as I read once Liu Guoliang say basically the same thing, that short pips simply takes much longer to learn inverted.

      I'm not surprised to hear you've played with it and didn't like it. I think that's normal. I think you'd have to give it bare minimum a legit 2 months first to begin to formula a final evaluation. And honestly at least a year before you might be really pretty good with them.

      SPs is tactical but doesn't give you the wow moments inverted does IMO. There won't be any flashy loops. It's placement, picking your shots and hopefully getting people to struggle on your flat hits as they're used to incoming spin among other things.

      Post Edit:
      _____________

      I had to do some digging as I thought I had a match somewhere back when I use to play SPs. But here's a match I played.

      Now this style was weird back in the day. It was Short Pips & long pips and I don't play this style anymore. I play dual inverted now.

      Anyways, it's not flashy. It's not particularly impressive. It was about tactical play and trying to make the opponent feel off balance.

      .... Even now when I see some of my FH strokes with the Short Pips I think it looks more geared towards inverted and wasn't flat for forward enough. Oh well.

      Last edited by suds79; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:34 PM.

    19. Top | #15
      Andre74 is offline
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      Thanks for the advices. I’m honestly totally aware that fiddling with equipment hinders my progress. Since I restarted with TT I played with a stiga all round classic with 729 for 6 months and got a lot out of it, then started to try more modern gear looking for a little extra speed. I actually love my frying pan all round with thin 729, it weights nothing and playing aggressively with it makes me sweat buckets. I actually still play well with it and like to use it
      occasionally but many of my good shots are too slow and come back and blocking is a nighmare. I’m giving myself sometime to mess around a bit and my hope is that I find a setup that I want to stick to for a bit. Recently I played with a friend’s Joyner with dead tenergy and I absolutely loved the feeling of the setup, so unique, my backhands that are already good were even spinnier and safer and there is something about the softness of the setup that every time I borrow it, I just love it. So now I’m getting curious about hinoki. I’m very aware this has to stop ASAP!!

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    21. Top | #16
      lasta is online now
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      It's better if you stop.

      But people are curious, sometimes you have to feel something for yourself to convince yourself that it's not right haha.

      Reading below would be like opening the Pandora's Box:

      If you want something to push you to the right direction; think about why Hinoki blades might be good for you.

      Search for "wood characteristics", "blade stiffness and frequency", and some older posts by JRSDallas on Mytabletennis. I can forward you some of my "disorganized" correspondence with a blade-maker/engineer...after that if you want.

      After lots of reading, a few dozen blade/rubber tests, you will realize that there might be something "better" than Hinoki.

      And after a few dozen more blades, you will realize there is no such thing as perfection.

      All the while, your skills are improving concurrently.

      By that time, you will find that you play just as well with your Sweden Extra as you do with some 1000 year old certified organic Kiso Hinoki.

      Then you ask yourself what to do with all the plywood you know you will never play with.

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    23. Top | #17
      Andre74 is offline
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      I think the main issue is that I am a geek by nature and like technology, engineering, design, etc. And possibly I don’t spend enough time playing TT so I end up reading about it. You are very welcome to pm me with interesting readings, the ones you mentioned sound very familiar,I did a lot of research, not to improve my game but for the pleasure of reading about “the science behind”.
      Right now I think I can already fully agree with your points,that I should stop,that I can play with any blade I already own, and that with 4 blades I already own is far too many blades already, that’s 4 in my 1st year of being back to TT. There’s no perfect setup for sure, at my level it matters even less, but it’s a bit like committing to a monogamous relationship, and I have not found the blade for a long term relationship yet.

      The hinoki curiosity comes from having tried the only setup that made me feel something really interesting which I want to experience more of. I don’t even know for sure if hinoki had to do with it, it could just have been the t05 on a slow flexible light blade, that happened to be hinoki, maybe a t05 on allround classic would produce the same effect, who knows.

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      I just want to say, thanks for the contributions on this thread which are really good and interesting. Pure curiosity, SP are still alien to me apart from the odd try and I don't quite plan to switch, but still.


      Edit: based on the video I agree inverted was probably the way to go, on some strokes it works well but on quite a few the pips seem a hindrance (reaching out and ball taken late, still brushing quite a bit and, as you said, could use more forward momentum but that may be true with inverted as well). Still a good surprise factor I imagine, you can't have faced too many opponents with setups similar to yours!
      Last edited by Ioiettino; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:13 PM.

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    26. Top | #19
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      I think it is nothing wrong with trying short pimples. As long as you have a good reason. More proably if you change equipment that are from the same group. I mean try different inverted that are proably more or less the same.

      But i Do feel it is a bit naive and almost arrogant that you try it once and make a conclusion from that. Need to give it a couple of months.

      I feel that many Times people change to short pimples and have No clue how to use it, and keep playing like it is an inverted. So if you try pimples you really need to adjust the stroke. It would be fun to see a video of you using it and Maybe We can help you out.

      So if you have a good reason for trying short pimple give it a couple of months ns make sure you know what you are doing. You migth kap think about What kind of short pimple and blade you use. More different here compared ro inverted in my opinion. Good luck!

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      Andre74 is offline
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      As I said, I tried it - I tried SP (I player many hours with it) and felt it wasn’t what I was expecting. And I kept the rubber on my blade to give it more time. But so far, it wasn’t the thing I was looking for. I played short pimples all my youth a few decades ago so I’m not totally ignorant on how to use it, but I didn’t know what to expect from modern short pimples. I don’t think i’m being arrogant, but naive, sure that is probably right :-)
      I will surely give SP a chance to grow on me. About posting a video, as soon as I get the chance to film myself, I will, I have not filmed myself yet and I really need to, to study what I’m doing wrong.

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