Forehand power vs Backhand power

This user has no status.
I think if you play table tennis you will see that timing a backhand away from the table is hard unless the ball is a clean rally ball. Playing a chopper is hard to do consistently with the backhand as adjusting to last second changes in the ball trajectory is hard. Tes we can argue thar people can develop stronger backhands but a backhand is never a forehand. Wcen players with great backhands cannot become world class players without good forehands. You don't need a powerful backhand loop to be a world class player.

As if you are saying I don't play table tennis. Besides that, it sounds right:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
I do think the answers from NextLevel should have been sufficient. The answer from Wister was perfectly adequate as well. But....

Why do so many tennis players in today's pro tennis game use a 2 handed backhand?

If you do seriously play racket sports, this is not a real question and the answer should be obvious.

Even in a sport like tennis where you have a lot of time and can turn your feet, your hips and your shoulders fully to power into the ball without compromising your position for the next shot, the strongest one handed BH is nowhere near as strong as a normally strong FH. A BH can be sharp, precise, pinpoint, and have pace. But it will not have the same kind of raw power.

And because of this, most top tennis players use a two handed BH these days.

In TT, your feet are either neutral or turned slightly towards the FH for the shot, or you would be seriously compromised on your FH. This means your hip rotation happens while your legs are still turned towards the FH. And most of the stroke happens in TT with the hips, the elbow joint moving the forearm, and the whip of the wrist. The legs are turned towards the FH so they cannot help as much.

But even if you had time to turn your feet fully to the BH, turn your shoulders and fully use your legs, hips and shoulder/upper body, it still is not as powerful as a FH where your arm is moving towards your center line, while with the BH your arm is moving out away from your center line.

When Langel posted the videos of various sports, especially boxing, he had a very good point. How many backhand punches are thrown in boxing? And why don't they use that as a punch? :) Just think about it and you should be able to answer your question. It might be good for shock and quickness? Ali used to use something like a BH flick for his jab. But you will never do damage or knock someone out with that fly swatting flick. :)

Over the table in TT, that flicking motion is very effective and the FH cannot get that much motion in that short a swing over the table where the table is in the way. But once you can drop your racket lower than the table, the FH has a much larger range for power.

And NextLevel's point about power zone and hitting range on BH and how much smaller it is really should be understood. It is much more possible to make a powerful shot without being in the precise position with FH. If you are not in just the right position with BH the shot is much more compromised.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2018
1,088
754
2,410
Read 2 reviews
Slightly off topic but anyways: Your grip determine how powerful your BH is vs your FH. Our coaches shape the players to use a fairly extreme BH grip (ie more thumb on the rubber) as opposed to what was popular during 90ies when players pretty much were forced to use FH for everything by their coaches. The idea is to sacrifice some FH power to increase the BH power. Changing the grip too much when switching between BH and FH is not really feasible when you get to a certain level. That’s how I’ve had it explained by the head coach of one of the best clubs in Sweden.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nivekkan
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Oct 2011
726
1,310
2,436
Changing the grip too much when switching between BH and FH is not really feasible when you get to a certain level. That’s how I’ve had it explained by the head coach of one of the best clubs in Sweden.

Please don’t tell this to Timo Boll... ;)

I remember some extremely knowledgelable Swedish national youth team coaches in the 90s being quite certain that this talented German cadet boy player (Boll) would never amount to anything as a top senior player (maybe not even as a top junior player) due to his substantial grip change.

But yes, if the grip change is too extreme, it can certainly make it difficult to reach top level. But a flexible relaxed grip with the possibilities of changing the grip for both over-the-table strokes (like pushes and flicks) and rallying shots (topspins and block variations from either side) seems to be the norm in top class table tennis now.

Top players using a forehand grip for backhand shots is almost not to be seen anymore. Probably because it’s too restricting for the quality of backhand play? I feel Mattias Falck might actually be using a slight forhand grip also when playing his backhand, but he does have a quite special backhand technique compared to most strong backhand players. Maybe his grip is also due to the fact that he has big hands - maybe a little similar to another Swedish legend, Jörgen Persson? :confused:
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2018
1,088
754
2,410
Read 2 reviews
Excellent points Jesper. You'll always find geniuses like Boll and Persson who don't confirm to the norm but I guess that the coach's point was that very few players will survive at a good level (2250+ Swedish ranking) if they rely on making a big grip change when transitioning from FH to BH.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
Excellent points Jesper. You'll always find geniuses like Boll and Persson who don't confirm to the norm but I guess that the coach's point was that very few players will survive at a good level (2250+ Swedish ranking) if they rely on making a big grip change when transitioning from FH to BH.

Big grip change is really slow grip change combined with poor anticipation. The grip changes the top players make. Ow are fairly large. Look at Dima as another example. It really comes down to how fast they read the game and anticipate what grip they want to use for the shot they play. After all people switch hands too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JesperStef
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2018
1,088
754
2,410
Read 2 reviews
Absolutely but all of the above examples are players that were schooled when the extreme FH grip was in fashion. I was just trying to say that you can gain a lot of BH power by using a more extreme BH grip (and this is how our coaches currently want young and developing players to grip the racket).
 
says The sticky bit is stuck.
says The sticky bit is stuck.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2017
2,764
2,607
8,135
Read 8 reviews
This is a good explanation :D
BTW simon gauzy and hugo calderano sometimes use 2handed backhand in TT but it doesn't seem to be an offensive shot and more like a lob or a punchier block. It sure looks funny but is there a legit benefit for doing that in tt?

Stabilizing the hit when not in the proper contact zone, i.e. when hitting a ball slightly out of optimal reach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nivekkan
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,225
9,313
18,290
Chose to stay out of this because other members have more or less addressed the issue but the OP's stance is not entirely unfounded and given the other thread is still debating over the BH issue. So here goes.

From a physiological standpoint, the BH could be comparable to the FH in power because the muscle activated in a BH stroke, namely the biceps, involves eccentric contraction, which is naturally stronger than concentric contraction.

Some experimental results.

zMTMAUH.png
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: nivekkan
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,225
9,313
18,290
Yup, your biceps actually contract and lengthen when you extend your forearm.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
Chose to stay out of this because other members have more or less addressed the issue but the OP's stance is not entirely unfounded and given the other thread is still debating over the BH issue. So here goes.

From a physiological standpoint, the BH could be comparable to the FH in power because the muscle activated in a BH stroke, namely the biceps, involves eccentric contraction, which is naturally stronger than concentric contraction.

Some experimental results.

cache.php

Eccentric contraction in a BH is the bicep keeping the forearm from going too far. It is not moving the forearm. But putting on the breaks to the forearm movement.

The tricep is what would move the elbow from more bent to more straight. The bicep would keep it from going too fast at the end of the motion so as not to damage the elbow.

So the bicep contracting eccentrically would not be part of the generation of power in the action. It would be part of the synergy of muscles keeping the elbow safe.

An example of eccentric contraction of the bicep. If you were using a 20 lbs weight and you were curling, when you brought the weight up the bicep would contract concentrically (shorten) to move the weight up and the forearm towards the bicep and upper arm. When you slowly lowered the weight, the bicep would contract eccentrically to ensure the weight did not move back down too fast. The weight and gravity, in this instance, is moving the forearm away from the upper arm and the bicep. The eccentric contraction of the bicep has no ability to move the forearm in that direction. All it can do is contract to slow the movement of the forearm away from the upper arm.

So, even if eccentric contraction is naturally stronger than concentric contraction, which is usually the case, the concentric contraction has no ability to move the forearm away from the upper arm. It only has the power to slow the forearm's movement away.

So eccentric contraction of the bicep has nothing to do with generation of power in a BH. But everything to do with protecting the elbow joint.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Richie and zeio
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
Yup, your biceps actually contract and lengthen when you extend your forearm.

And the key point would be that, muscles can contract while shortening or lengthening. But muscles can only pull. They cannot push.

So, a bicep contracting while your forearm moves away from your upper arm could only cause the forearm to move more slowly or to put on the brakes at the end of the movement. The bicep cannot push the forearm away from the upper arm.

The tricep eccentrically contracting would be what was moving the forearm away from the upper arm.

Eccentric contractions are extremely important in all kinds of functional movements. They are why we can do things like walking down stairs while keeping the movement controlled. In every movement we do, there are a synergy of concentric and eccentric contractions.

In a FH, when the elbow snap happens, the movement of the forearm is generated by the concentric contraction of the bicep, but you also eccentrically contract your triceps for the same reason the bicep eccentrically contracts in a BH shot.

And the eccentric contraction does have to do more than the concentric. It is easier to get the forearm whipping than to put the brakes on and get it to stop moving.

But any movement is a complex synergy of eccentric and concentric contractions that work together to move the bones.
 
Last edited:
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,225
9,313
18,290
But a player wouldn't play a BH without supination, which is assisted by the biceps. Extra force is produced as a result when extending the forearm in the supinated position after a wind up, in addition to the SSC, the mechanism that you mention.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...-your-forehand-loop-even-more-powerful#876260
There is a name for this kind of explosive contraction of the muscle - the stretch-shortening cycle. It basically involves a conscious movement that causes an eccentric contraction which then induces a subconscious concentric contraction. The motion is so small that it is hardly visible but you can feel it. There is a lot written on this for tennis, such as this one.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...=1019756&title=forehand-whip-question#1019756
Does that mean I have to give up on snapping my forearm? I thought at the time. That's when I ran into another term - stretch-shortening cycle(SSC). What that term refers to is a safety mechanism that happens at the subconscious level of the nervous system. In simple terms, SSC means when a muscle is stretched, it would cause an involuntary contraction that produces extra force in an attempt to protect the body from damage. It happens a lot in daily life.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: nivekkan
This user has no status.
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,225
9,313
18,290
These are some technical shit:eek:

No shit! I think I first looked into it after I pulled the tendon in my elbow during a FH warmup. The dull pain was so bad it got me curious what I did wrong to deserve this. It did take a long time to heal like people mentioned on forums.
 
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,225
9,313
18,290
not sure what you meant by "no shit" but that was really unfortunate.:( So do you know what was the reason now?

I think what happened was I contracted both my biceps and triceps at the same time when trying to snap my forearm during a FH and pulled the tendon.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/no-shit
an expression of surprise, often used as a joke when someone has told you something that is very obvious:
"This is hard work!" "No shit!"

Learned it from Arnold.

 
Last edited:
Top