• Join our newsletter: 
  • Welcome Guest


    Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
    Results 41 to 57 of 57
    1. Top | #41
      Baal is offline
      says Ba'al has spoken
       
      Master TTD Member


      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      Houston, Texas
      Posts
      3,198
      Reviews
      Read 8 Reviews
      Liked 5,286 Times in 2,185 Posts
      I haven't read through the whole thread. But there are two reasons. The arm muscles that generate most of the FH force (flexors) are a lot stronger than the extenders used on the BH. Also it is easier to get body rotation on FH.

    2. Top | #42
      lasta is offline
      says Wa?
       
      Senior TTD Member Country: Canada
      lasta's Avatar

      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Posts
      750
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 412 Times in 266 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      I think what happened was I contracted both my biceps and triceps at the same time when trying to snap my forearm during a FH and pulled the tendon.

      https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/no-shit


      Learned it from Arnold.

      I feel you man. Snapped a tendon near the shoulder almost 2 months ago. Even now I can't join my hands behind my back.

    3. The Following User Likes lasta's Post:

      zeio (09-27-2019)

    4. Top | #43
      zeio is offline
      says 快、準、狠、變、轉
       
      Master TTD Member Country: Hong Kong
      zeio's Avatar

      Join Date
      Jan 2018
      Posts
      4,449
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6,593 Times in 2,812 Posts
      Found an image that illustrates the forearm muscles involved in a BH loop. In addition to the supinator, the biceps are also activated to supinate the forearm when the elbow is in a flexed position. During the swing, your biceps are actually lengthening at one end(triceps pulling on it) while shortening at the other, which results in more force being produced.



      https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics.../elbow-flexors
      ...While letting gravity keep your forearm fully pronated, slowly and repeatedly flex your elbow. Palpation of your upper arm during this movement should quickly verify that your biceps muscle is not active. If it were, your forearm would supinate. The most active muscle is your deeper brachialis—a muscle that cannot pronate or supinate. Next, while continuing to palpate your upper arm as you flex and extend your elbow, quickly and forcefully supinate your forearm. The immediate increase in tension in your biceps while supinating reflects the strong activation of this muscle. The nervous system recruits the biceps muscle because its combined actions exactly match the task at hand. The brachialis likely remains relentlessly active during both scenarios.

      ...As stated, the biceps crosses the shoulder, elbow, and forearm joints and therefore is often referred to as being multi-articular. Many movements of the upper extremity can influence the length at which the biceps is activated. Consider the natural motion of pulling, which combines elbow flexion with shoulder extension. Such a motion occurs when one attempts to start a lawnmower with a pull cord. By crossing the shoulder and elbow, the biceps, in effect, contracts (and shortens) across the elbow as it simultaneously lengthens across the shoulder. By contracting at one end and lengthening at the other, the muscle actually shortens a small net distance. This offers a physiologic advantage based on the muscle’s length-tension relationship.

      A muscle is considered more actively efficient when a given effort level produces a greater amount of force. This occurs when (1) a muscle contracts, and the muscle fibers shorten a relatively small amount per instant in time; and (2) a muscle remains at a nearly optimal length (to create contractile force) throughout an active movement.
      Last edited by zeio; 10-01-2019 at 07:23 AM.
      Race for Tokyo 2020 - China, Japan
      Time capsules - 2020, 2024, 2028

    5. Top | #44
      langel is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Master TTD Member Country: Bulgaria

      Equipment:
      Blade Xiom Vega Tour
      Forehand Rubber Xiom Omega VII Asia 2.0, Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0
      Backhand Rubber Xiom Omega VII Asia 2.0, Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0

      Join Date
      Apr 2017
      Posts
      1,879
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 873 Times in 610 Posts
      In TT we don't care about the tension, but about the result - the workout, and the workout depends on many other factors and dynamics than the arm muscles tension.

    6. Top | #45
      Baal is offline
      says Ba'al has spoken
       
      Master TTD Member


      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      Houston, Texas
      Posts
      3,198
      Reviews
      Read 8 Reviews
      Liked 5,286 Times in 2,185 Posts
      Very little of the force needed to generate stroke force on the BH comes from biceps. Mostly its role is postural. The motor units are not "twitching" rather they are supporting the forearm (but they do engage more on the follow through as suppination occurs ) The force mostly comes from extensors. Obviously the FH is a completely different motor pattern. The length-tension curve is not needed to answer the OP question.

      From a pure coaching perspective power on BH is optimized mostly by two things: timing and having the ball strike the optimum part of the racket. You can get a lit of power from acsuboptimal FH but on BH everything needs to be perfect.
      Last edited by Baal; 10-01-2019 at 11:31 AM.

    7. The Following 2 Users Like Baal's Post:

      NextLevel (10-01-2019),UpSideDownCarl (10-01-2019)

    8. Top | #46
      zeio is offline
      says 快、準、狠、變、轉
       
      Master TTD Member Country: Hong Kong
      zeio's Avatar

      Join Date
      Jan 2018
      Posts
      4,449
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6,593 Times in 2,812 Posts
      I'll post some electromyograms of test players playing FH and BH later.

    9. Top | #47
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
      says Krooklyn District Goon Squad
      Commissioner
       
      Equipment Expert
      Super Moderator Country: United States
      UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade OSP Virtuoso +
      Forehand Rubber BH:Red Rasanter R48
      Backhand Rubber FH:Black Rasanter R48

      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Brooklyn, New York
      Posts
      13,140
      Reviews
      Read 11 Reviews
      Liked 14,718 Times in 7,074 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Very little of the force needed to generate stroke force on the BH comes from biceps. Mostly its role is postural. The motor units are not "twitching" rather they are supporting the forearm (but they do engage more on the follow through as suppination occurs ) The force mostly comes from extensors. Obviously the FH is a completely different motor pattern. The length-tension curve is not needed to answer the OP question.

      From a pure coaching perspective power on BH is optimized mostly by two things: timing and having the ball strike the optimum part of the racket. You can get a lit of power from acsuboptimal FH but on BH everything needs to be perfect.
      I don't think anyone here needs any more information than this. This sums it up much more accurately than trying to look at what muscles are active in the stroke.
      Spin Everything.

    10. Top | #48
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
      says Krooklyn District Goon Squad
      Commissioner
       
      Equipment Expert
      Super Moderator Country: United States
      UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade OSP Virtuoso +
      Forehand Rubber BH:Red Rasanter R48
      Backhand Rubber FH:Black Rasanter R48

      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Brooklyn, New York
      Posts
      13,140
      Reviews
      Read 11 Reviews
      Liked 14,718 Times in 7,074 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Very little of the force needed to generate stroke force on the BH comes from biceps. Mostly its role is postural. The motor units are not "twitching" rather they are supporting the forearm (but they do engage more on the follow through as suppination occurs ) The force mostly comes from extensors. Obviously the FH is a completely different motor pattern. The length-tension curve is not needed to answer the OP question.
      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post

      From a pure coaching perspective power on BH is optimized mostly by two things: timing and having the ball strike the optimum part of the racket. You can get a lit of power from acsuboptimal FH but on BH everything needs to be perfect.
      I don't think anyone here needs any more information than this. This sums it up much more accurately than trying to look at what muscles are active in the stroke.

      Looking at an electromyogram of a stroke will show which muscles are active. But it won't tell you which muscles are slowing the movement and which are actually moving the bones.

      If you looked ad an EMG of someone walking down stairs with deliberate slowness, you may end up thinking that the muscles that are slowing the movement are the ones that are generating the movement, because, without question the movers will not have to work anywhere near as much as the muscles that are putting on the brakes so that the bones don't fall as fast as a result of gravity.

      An EMG of walking up stairs slowly would show much more of the movers and less of the eccentric contractions that control the speed of the movement. Whereas, one of walking down the stairs would show much less for the movers (concentric contractors) and much more from the muscles that are slowing the process (eccentric contractors).

      Walking up the stairs, gravity is against you so you need the muscles that will move the bones more and gravity helps the slowing and control of the
      movement so the muscles that would put on the brakes are do not need as much force.

      Walking down the stairs, gravity helps the moving of the bones so the muscles that make it so you don't move too fast, need to work harder.

      If an EMG shows neural and muscular activity in a movement it should show the synergy of muscles on both sides of the joint.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-01-2019 at 12:54 PM.

    11. Top | #49
      Loopadoop is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Master TTD Member Country: United States

      Equipment:
      Blade Gambler carbon
      Forehand Rubber RH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
      Backhand Rubber RH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0

      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Podunk TT City
      Posts
      2,206
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 547 Times in 411 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I don't think anyone here needs any more information than this. This sums it up much more accurately than trying to look at what muscles are active in the stroke.
      Actually, you can get a lot of bh power by hitting like a left handed baseball hitter modified for tt, a smooth stroke without swinging hard.

    12. Top | #50
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
      says Krooklyn District Goon Squad
      Commissioner
       
      Equipment Expert
      Super Moderator Country: United States
      UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade OSP Virtuoso +
      Forehand Rubber BH:Red Rasanter R48
      Backhand Rubber FH:Black Rasanter R48

      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Brooklyn, New York
      Posts
      13,140
      Reviews
      Read 11 Reviews
      Liked 14,718 Times in 7,074 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop View Post
      Actually, you can get a lot of bh power by hitting like a left handed baseball hitter modified for tt, a smooth stroke without swinging hard.
      Any chance you can show video footage of this implemented in a match? It could be footage of a pro doing this in a match if it isn't you.

      It would be worth seeing the practical application of what you are talking about. Like, are you talking about a two handed BH? Are you talking about two handed BH with full turn of legs and body to BH side?
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-01-2019 at 04:49 PM.

    13. Top | #51
      Loopadoop is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Master TTD Member Country: United States

      Equipment:
      Blade Gambler carbon
      Forehand Rubber RH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
      Backhand Rubber RH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0

      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Podunk TT City
      Posts
      2,206
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 547 Times in 411 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Any chance you can show video footage of this implemented in a match? It could be footage of a pro doing this in a match if it isn't you.

      It would be worth seeing the practical application of what you are talking about. Like, are you talking about a two handed BH? Are you talking about two handed BH with full turn of legs and body to BH side?
      One handed bh synchronized with hips.

    14. Top | #52
      Loopadoop is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Master TTD Member Country: United States

      Equipment:
      Blade Gambler carbon
      Forehand Rubber RH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
      Backhand Rubber RH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0

      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Podunk TT City
      Posts
      2,206
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 547 Times in 411 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop View Post
      One handed bh synchronized with hips.
      Other advantages, no wrist or arm contortions.

    15. Top | #53
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
      says Krooklyn District Goon Squad
      Commissioner
       
      Equipment Expert
      Super Moderator Country: United States
      UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade OSP Virtuoso +
      Forehand Rubber BH:Red Rasanter R48
      Backhand Rubber FH:Black Rasanter R48

      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Brooklyn, New York
      Posts
      13,140
      Reviews
      Read 11 Reviews
      Liked 14,718 Times in 7,074 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop View Post
      One handed bh synchronized with hips.
      Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop View Post
      Other advantages, no wrist or arm contortions.
      So, can you show footage of someone who does this? It would not be the footage you showed me.

    16. Top | #54
      zeio is offline
      says 快、準、狠、變、轉
       
      Master TTD Member Country: Hong Kong
      zeio's Avatar

      Join Date
      Jan 2018
      Posts
      4,449
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6,593 Times in 2,812 Posts
      Stolen from a Japanese study by Sapporo International University.






      Figure 3


      Figure 4


      Figure 5


      Figure 6

      本測定の結果、卓球の経験年数が 2 年未満の中学生の被験者 T では、フォアハンドストローク時では、大胸筋、三角筋前部線維および上腕二頭筋が主に活動した(資料3)、バックハンドストローク時には、広背筋および橈側手根伸筋が活動した(資料4)。これに対して、小学生ながら卓球歴が 3 年以上の習熟した被験者 K では、フォアハンドストローク時には、大胸筋、三角筋前部線維、上腕二頭筋、腕橈骨筋および尺側手根屈筋の多くの筋がシナジー的に(資料5)、またさらにバックハンドストローク時には、三角筋の前部・中部・後部線維、上腕二頭筋および上腕三頭筋がシナジー的に活動した(資料6)。これらのことは、卓球ストローク時の上肢筋および体幹筋のシナジー制御の運動経験による差異を示しているものと強く示唆される。
      Results of this measurement indicate that, subject T, a junior high school student with less than 2 years of experience in table tennis, was mainly active in the pectoralis major, anterior deltoid and biceps brachii during the FH stroke (Figure 3). During the BH stroke, the latissimus dorsi and extensor carpi radialis longus/brevis were active (Figure 4). On the other hand, elementary school student K who has practiced table tennis for more than 3 years, during the FH stroke, the pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, biceps brachii, brachioradialis and flexor carpi ulnaris acted synergistically (Figure 5), and during the BH stroke, the anterior, lateral and posterior fibers of the deltoid, biceps brachii and triceps acted synergistically (Figure 6). This suggests that there is a strong indication of difference in the synergistic control of upper limb and trunk muscles during table tennis strokes due to experience.
      -------------

      The keyword here is synergy. Put simply, muscles such as the biceps and triceps are not strictly agonist and/or antagonist. Some of them also perform the role of synergist. The biceps and brachioradialis do not just perform flexion(winding up during BH) but also have a notable participation in supination(closing the racket face during BH), in addition to keeping the triceps in check. The extension of the eblow gives the shot the speed, but supination of the forearm and external rotation of the shoulder(by the rotator cuff which is not measured here) are what give the shot the spin and arc.



      Performed with a 59-month-old Hexer HD
      Last edited by zeio; 10-02-2019 at 07:27 AM.

    17. The Following User Likes zeio's Post:

      ttdad (10-02-2019)

    18. Top | #55
      Baal is offline
      says Ba'al has spoken
       
      Master TTD Member


      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      Houston, Texas
      Posts
      3,198
      Reviews
      Read 8 Reviews
      Liked 5,286 Times in 2,185 Posts
      EMG measures activity, not force, does not indicate which fiber types are firing.

    19. The Following User Likes Baal's Post:

      UpSideDownCarl (10-02-2019)

    20. Top | #56
      zeio is offline
      says 快、準、狠、變、轉
       
      Master TTD Member Country: Hong Kong
      zeio's Avatar

      Join Date
      Jan 2018
      Posts
      4,449
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6,593 Times in 2,812 Posts
      Note I wrote "participation." I've stressed that the biceps and brachioradialis get stretched out and shortened during the unloading phase of the BH stroke and this actually lets you generate more force as explained by the force-length relationship.

    21. Top | #57
      fernso2004 is offline
      says Crossing fingers
       
      TTD Member Country: Australia


      Join Date
      Sep 2018
      Location
      Sydney, NSW
      Posts
      14
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      Even with good technique, a bh is limited by body mechanics and anatomical function and movement. The op is specifically asking for power of both strokes and you can never remove strength from the equation.
      Agree. The backhand simply has limited range of motions. The forehand can do every range of motion of the backhand. The same cannot be said of the backhand with regards to the forehand motions. Simply, you have more options, more range, and more power with the forehand.

    Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

    Tags for this Thread

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •  
    Log in or Register
    BACK TO TOP