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    #1

    Upgrade from Persson Powerplay

    Hello all,

    I have been playing for about 2 years with the Powerplay, but now I'm thinking of upgrading.
    Why? Because I need a blade with more bounce. I usually play 50 deg rubbers on FH and 47 deg on BH, and if those are not boosted enough then passive shots go into the net easily, because the ppp is hard and has too little bounce. But except that I have very good control with the blade.
    So I need something very similar, but with faster base speed and equal or a bit more top speed.
    I'm a generic looper who likes to play from half distance.

    I'm quite picky, so... it should be around 6mm, have koto outer, flex only on more powerful shots, have medium throw, have somewhat uniform hardness (no extreme hardness composition difference like balsa carbon) and of course very high control (whatever that means right)
    For reference... I think viscaria is too fast and flexy. fang bo carbon still too fast, too flexy and too dull/soft touch, all those 7ply limba ayous blades like clipper and samsonov force series is too soft and bouncy, OTC is too hard, fast and stiff, most 5plys are too slow and flex too much like offensive classic or Hinotec All+ or Sweden Extra, and balsa blades are just way too bouncy.

    So does have anyone an idea or should I just boost more :P

    I hope to get some input from Der_Echte.
    (because he has played ppp for some time)

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    #2
    I used the Persson Powerplay about 9 years ago. I find it a moderately hard, but thin and flexible blade. So I'm surprised you find Viscaria too "flexible".

    Just to gauge some more:

    Why only koto? IMO a blade's total construction determines the feel and playing characteristics, not just the outer ply. Koto is fairly hard, so it will be nearly impossible to achieve "uniform hardness" at a reasonable weight.

    From what I can understand, you want:

    1. Stiff
    2. Low bounciness/dampened feel
    3. Not too hard, but high density (ie not hollow, is this what you mean by uniform hardness?)
    4. Higher low impact speed, tapering high end.

    The first 3 criteria (especially 2) contradicts with the 4th.

    My best guess compromise would probably be a 7 ply hinoki blade, try the Septear.

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    #3
    On the other end of the spectrum, if you are willing to give up "extreme composition differences", the Gatien Absolum could be an option. It won't have uniform density (hard on the outside, soft inside). But definitely fits the higher base speed and flex at high impact criteria.

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    #4
    Maybe the problem with your lack of bounce is the type of rubber you use if u use Chinese rubber I recommend you to use Chinese technique for generating more force so the ball goes over the net. Even if you're not using Chinese rubber, that's probably the best possible solution. I don't thing persson power-play is bad but in case you want something more aggressive, I could suggest some options:
    1-Ovtcharov true carbon
    2-burn carbotox
    3-li ping kitex
    4-hurricane long 5
    5-carbonado 190
    6-viscaria

    I can tell you one thing for sure, if you keep looking for a perfect thing then you never find it. Just look for the closest to ideal and for the weaknesses, adjust yourself to it.

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    #5
    Actually, you CAN find the perfect thing.

    Just 2 problems:

    1. It will take a few dozen blades before you can clearly define what "perfect" means to yourself.
    2. "Perfect" is variable over time.

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    #6
    MAN... I wanna say SO MUCH... and can as I have recently geared down to use the Person Power Play for a year plus and it REALLY helped me develop a lot of my consistency...

    ...I can say some different specs from what OP states would be fine... so many. The two I used were the Infinity Carbon and the Batos ALC (that is currently crazy glued to my hand)

    ... I would agree with comments of Lasta in whole... WTF is OP thinking... but it may be a problem with presentation. I think OP is not around a bunch of players who use different equipment. BAD LUCK dude, such a situation is a gold mine for ideas and practical experience.
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    #7
    DHS H301 or Timo Boll CAF

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by lasta
    I used the Persson Powerplay about 9 years ago. I find it a moderately hard, but thin and flexible blade. So I'm surprised you find Viscaria too "flexible".

    Just to gauge some more:

    Why only koto? IMO a blade's total construction determines the feel and playing characteristics, not just the outer ply. Koto is fairly hard, so it will be nearly impossible to achieve "uniform hardness" at a reasonable weight.

    From what I can understand, you want:

    1. Stiff
    2. Low bounciness/dampened feel
    3. Not too hard, but high density (ie not hollow, is this what you mean by uniform hardness?)
    4. Higher low impact speed, tapering high end.

    The first 3 criteria (especially 2) contradicts with the 4th.

    My best guess compromise would probably be a 7 ply hinoki blade, try the Septear.
    Viscaria is thinner than PPP and thus feels flexier.
    I want Koto because it has the best touch for me. Limba is too dull, Hinoki feels just mushy and weird and walnut is too hard. I have tested for many years to know that nothing beats Koto for me. Ofc the rest of the blade matters. That's why the rest of the blade can't be too soft.

    With uniform hardness I mean that the blade behaves in a linear way. What you put in is what you get out. Not like with those balsa blades that give you insane catapult at low speed and once you put power in, the blade's softness prevents a 1:1 transfer of energy.

    While you have correctly understood the factors I want, you understood my requirements as absolute, not as relative.
    It is true that a blade with a fast low impact speed can't have low bounciness.
    However, I just want a blade that has more low impact speed that PPP, while only being a little more bouncy, but that would not be regarded as high in bounciness overall. So there is no contradiction.

    And Septear is sadly no option, since I very much dislike the muddy feel of hinoki.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    MAN... I wanna say SO MUCH... and can as I have recently geared down to use the Person Power Play for a year plus and it REALLY helped me develop a lot of my consistency...

    ...I can say some different specs from what OP states would be fine... so many. The two I used were the Infinity Carbon and the Batos ALC (that is currently crazy glued to my hand)

    ... I would agree with comments of Lasta in whole... WTF is OP thinking... but it may be a problem with presentation. I think OP is not around a bunch of players who use different equipment. BAD LUCK dude, such a situation is a gold mine for ideas and practical experience.
    Well, I am indeed not around players who put much thought into what equipment they are using.
    How about you compare your current blade to the PPP?

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Server
    DHS H301 or Timo Boll CAF
    Those are reasonable suggestions. I have been eyeing the H301, but probably there is nobody that can compare it to the PPP.

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    #11
    Honestly, you are putting too much emphasis on the outer ply, it makes less difference than you think. But I'm not here to argue.

    The best I've found was the old DHS 08, 7 ply basswood. The Xiom Hinoki S7 comes close (7 ply Hinoki), and so did a custom all spruce. All crisp, linear, stiff, uniform density, and best iterations of 1:1 linearity. But all are 7mm+ and much faster than the powerplay (IMO the powerplay is the slowest blade I've actually kept).

    If you want very little change, try multiple layers of varnish on the powerplay, will add some extra hardness and low impact speed without distorting the feel too much. I recommend a generous 3-4 layers to start. Also, just a tip: oil based polyurethane varnishes are better than the water based "tt sealers".

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    #12
    SANWEI Fextra 7

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lasta
    Honestly, you are putting too much emphasis on the outer ply, it makes less difference than you think. But I'm not here to argue.

    The best I've found was the old DHS 08, 7 ply basswood. The Xiom Hinoki S7 comes close (7 ply Hinoki), and so did a custom all spruce. All crisp, linear, stiff, uniform density, and best iterations of 1:1 linearity. But all are 7mm+ and much faster than the powerplay (IMO the powerplay is the slowest blade I've actually kept).

    If you want very little change, try multiple layers of varnish on the powerplay, will add some extra hardness and low impact speed without distorting the feel too much. I recommend a generous 3-4 layers to start. Also, just a tip: oil based polyurethane varnishes are better than the water based "tt sealers".
    I put emphasis on all the factors. Maybe it doesn't matter as much to you, but it does to me, as I use brush loops with chinese rubber to open up the rally, and for that specific impact the outer layer cannot be softer than koto, or the shot becomes inconsistent. I know what I'm talking about as I have tested over three dozen blades over 5 years until I finally settled on the powerplay 2 years ago. The only thing that seemed similarly good was Anigre. I have never liked a blade that didn't have Koto or Anigre outer ply.
    I also will not consider anything that is over 6.5mm, as stated in OP. Nothing that thick is useful as a looping blade.

    I haven't tried varnish yet. It's a good suggestion though. Will try it on the old blade after buying a new one to have a reference.

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    #14
    Spinlord rd2 is a koto top ply 5 layer allwood blade. Middle ply is thick so its stiffer than most of the 5 ply allwood blades and its quite bouncy.

    But I can't say it has a crispy feeling. There is not much vibration.

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    #15
    I'm a bit puzzled that you find the PPP hard and the viscaria flexy, have you tried them with the same rubbers?The PPP is a phony 7 ply, it has a 7 ply structure but underneath the koto is foil. Also, the koto ply is relatively thin. The ones i measured come at about 5.7mm, which is about the same thickness as the viscaria.

    My suggestion would be to find a real 7 ply with koto outer in the 5.9-6.0mm range, but there aren't many of those around. You have the Timo Boll w7 but it's about 6.7mm. The DHS PG9 doesn't have the normal 7 ply structure and i'm not really sure of how it plays. Maybe the best option is to have a blade custom made to fit all the criteria.

    If you want more low impact speed forget the H301. I had one and got rid of it for precisely that reason. It's very "linear" as people call it. Also, very low throw.

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    #16
    I have not played my PPP for about a year. But I tested it back to back with my Viscaria with identical rubbers.
    In comparison I would absolutely call the Viscaria stiff, and the PPP flexible.

    The PPP is not as fast, and more controllable. More of a loopers blade to me. Were trying with tacky Tuttle-rubbers at the time. Could of course feel different with ESN-rubbers.

    When Persson himself couldn't use speed glue he switch to Persson Power Carbon.

    I have not tried it, but it should be about the same feel, but a bit faster.

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic
    I'm a bit puzzled that you find the PPP hard and the viscaria flexy, have you tried them with the same rubbers?The PPP is a phony 7 ply, it has a 7 ply structure but underneath the koto is foil. Also, the koto ply is relatively thin. The ones i measured come at about 5.7mm, which is about the same thickness as the viscaria.

    My suggestion would be to find a real 7 ply with koto outer in the 5.9-6.0mm range, but there aren't many of those around. You have the Timo Boll w7 but it's about 6.7mm. The DHS PG9 doesn't have the normal 7 ply structure and i'm not really sure of how it plays. Maybe the best option is to have a blade custom made to fit all the criteria.

    If you want more low impact speed forget the H301. I had one and got rid of it for precisely that reason. It's very "linear" as people call it. Also, very low throw.
    Thanks for your input. I have a PG9 and sadly it is too stiff and also much softer than ppp. Throw is also very low. Only usable with very high throw rubbers imo.
    My ppp is thicker at about 5.9-6.0mm, so maybe that's what makes the difference in feel to viscaria. Anyways viscaria has much more flex and higher throw than PG9.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSkies
    I have not played my PPP for about a year. But I tested it back to back with my Viscaria with identical rubbers.
    In comparison I would absolutely call the Viscaria stiff, and the PPP flexible.

    The PPP is not as fast, and more controllable. More of a loopers blade to me. Were trying with tacky Tuttle-rubbers at the time. Could of course feel different with ESN-rubbers.

    When Persson himself couldn't use speed glue he switch to Persson Power Carbon.

    I have not tried it, but it should be about the same feel, but a bit faster.
    Thanks for the recommendation, will definitely take a look at the power carbon

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    #19
    I'd chip in a left field suggestion for the Stiga Arctic Wood. May not have the koto outer ply that you want but it's a great looping blade with both chinese and european rubbers. Hard enough to have good speed too when you need it without being overly bouncy.

    I've used DHS H3 Prov orange sponge, Skyline 3 orange sponge, Sanwei Target National, Sanwei Target Pro blue sponge, Tibhar K2, Xiom Vega Euro, and Tibhar EL-S. All those work nicely with the blade.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeen
    Viscaria is thinner than PPP and thus feels flexier. I want Koto because it has the best touch for me. Limba is too dull, Hinoki feels just mushy and weird and walnut is too hard. I have tested for many years to know that nothing beats Koto for me. Ofc the rest of the blade matters. That's why the rest of the blade can't be too soft. With uniform hardness I mean that the blade behaves in a linear way. What you put in is what you get out. Not like with those balsa blades that give you insane catapult at low speed and once you put power in, the blade's softness prevents a 1:1 transfer of energy. While you have correctly understood the factors I want, you understood my requirements as absolute, not as relative. It is true that a blade with a fast low impact speed can't have low bounciness. However, I just want a blade that has more low impact speed that PPP, while only being a little more bouncy, but that would not be regarded as high in bounciness overall. So there is no contradiction. And Septear is sadly no option, since I very much dislike the muddy feel of hinoki.

    Xiom Solo 6.3 mm Koto outer ( very nice finish and construction - beautiful blade ihmo ) Nicely controlled blade Good blocks ( Koto kicks ) Feeling blade, Yet powershots are possible, precise and deadly as stiffness is here when you engage the blade.

    Last edited by ajosse; 07-12-2021 at 11:18 AM.

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