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    1. Top | #21
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by BryanY View Post
      The question for me is whether I should lock (or partially lock) my wrist to prevent the natural (kinetic) wrist movement during a topspin rally. During a rally I may miss the ball or (or have bad contact) if my wrist is moving too much.
      I have heard high level pro coaches say both. If for you consistency is the issue and having your wrist too relaxed makes you miss too often, it is pretty okay to have control and not let your wrist get too floppy. I would not say, "lock" in relationship to holding your wrist stable. Just, maybe not too floppy.

      As you get more control, I would let the wrist be more free.

      Part of what I was getting at in my post is that the wrist will do what it should as you train good technique for long enough. But when it is moving in ways that compromise your contact and therefore your control of your shots, as Baal alluded to, then you make it so your wrist is a little more stable; so the wrist does not move quite as much. As you gain more control and precision, you will be able to feel when to let your wrist be more relaxed without compromising control; you will start to know the instances when it will be useful to let your wrist move more freely in certain shots.

      Part of how the wrist moves is not from conscious action but from how relaxed your arm is and how you use your forearm in your stroke. So the main thing that might be usefully conscious about this is not the choice to use the wrist but the choice of how relaxed you leave your wrist or instead, if you try and limit the amount of freedom in the wrist movement, then the question would be, how much you would want to keep your wrist more stable. But I still don't think you would want to be trying to completely keep it from moving or "lock" your wrist.

      It is worth watching some of Brett Clarke's videos on how to use the wrist. You will notice, how he presents it is about whip mechanics. Rather than conscious movement of the wrist. And if that relaxedness that creates that whip from the wrist, then the issue would be, how much do you want to limit that relaxedness while you gain more control.

      When you have the control, you can start allowing the wrist to move more progressively.

      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 17 Hours Ago at 04:47 PM.
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    3. Top | #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by BryanY View Post
      The question for me is whether I should lock (or partially lock) my wrist to prevent the natural (kinetic) wrist movement during a topspin rally. During a rally I may miss the ball or (or have bad contact) if my wrist is moving too much.
      That is a timing and swing trajectory issue. If your wrist is making the racket go faster, there isn't anything clearly wrong with that. The question is whether you can control the planr and timing of the movement so that you get the effects you desire. Usually I encourage people to just time the pronation of the elbow or the use of the body. This gives people most of what they need. The fingers and wrist can be used to time things better with subtle changes.

      The biggest thing is not to give up just because you miss in the beginning. It is best to experiment with contact points on the ball and various swing trajectories and see what gives the most stability for a given input. Getting a more powerful and consistent relaxed stroke is always a good thing.
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    5. Top | #23
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      That is a timing and swing trajectory issue. If your wrist is making the racket go faster, there isn't anything clearly wrong with that. The question is whether you can control the planr and timing of the movement so that you get the effects you desire. Usually I encourage people to just time the pronation of the elbow or the use of the body. This gives people most of what they need. The fingers and wrist can be used to time things better with subtle changes.

      The biggest thing is not to give up just because you miss in the beginning. It is best to experiment with contact points on the ball and various swing trajectories and see what gives the most stability for a given input. Getting a more powerful and consistent relaxed stroke is always a good thing.
      I agree with this. There are always multiple ways of looking at any issue and this is a good way of looking at it. And in training, there is a value to doing something well even when you miss. If you miss constructively, over time you adjust the trajectory and angle of contact so that the good technique starts to land on the table.

      In some situations it is more important to do something well than to land the ball on the table. Thinking you have to land the ball on the table can get in the way of developing certain skills.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 17 Hours Ago at 05:08 PM.

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    7. Top | #24
      Baal is offline
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      Move your body and your arm and wrist will follow. Just don't tense up like a robot.

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    9. Top | #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Move your body and your arm and wrist will follow. Just don't tense up like a robot.
      Just look how good LL Beary's FH technique is at 1:10:




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    11. Top | #26
      Der_Echte is offline
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      I see SO MANY ADULTS jam-lock their shoulder once the kinetic energy gets to that part... then they tend to try to recreate the energy using the back of their shoulder... epic fail - not even Hercules would be able to stop and 4e grrr generate acceptable power that way.

      The power on a big swing away from table gets to the shoulder, a player could leverage the shoulder, the upper arm slows down and if shoulder and elbow/arm is loose, one can impulse the lower arm leveraging the elbow... then a similar thing with wrist... then firm up right at impact to deliver max amount of power possible in an efficient manner.

      Players who can do this look like they can create massive power without visibly trying. They make it look so effortless and easy.

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    13. Top | #27
      Der_Echte is offline
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      The base question of how much, or any, or a lot of wrist usage will depend on the incoming ball, where you are, what you are trying to do to the ball, what time and space you have, and also your individual technique.

      There can be coaches who say in a certain situation to use a lot of wrist and another can say use little... they can both be right.

      For the same situation, Timo Boll and Kim Jung Hoon would have totally different use of wrist given the same ball, position, time, and objective.

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    15. Top | #28
      Baal is offline
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      I always liked that bear video.

      Here is another way to visualize it. If your body rotates properly your arm will certainly move by centripetal force. The blade is an extension of the arm It will move through the air like the wing of an airplane. You can use the muscles that move (or tense) your wrist and also your elbow to adjust the trajectory of your arm and (crucially) your blade. It is just like the flaps on the wing of the plane that cause it to ascend or descend.

      If you muscles are too tense you won't have good control of the movement. (This is true for grip, wrist, biceps, shoulder). Racket angle and trajectory won't be quite right. Same if it is too loose.

      Now, once you get really really good there are places where some people argue that you can get some extra snap (increasing grip tension right before the ball hits, or trying to get wrist snap, or a biceps twitch), but you probably don't want to be thinking too much and that kind of thing needs to be timed absolutely perfectly.

      In my view those things anti-zen. And table tennis needs to be zen. If you get good rotation, you will have great power.

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    17. Top | #29
      laistrogian is offline
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      Erm, i feel like a lot of the explainations are getting too long and complicated. So here's the summary from my view that most of the people here also agree


      1. Use your wrist if you can be consistent with it, otherwise try not to use it as much
      2. Even if you try to 'lock' your wrist, never tense it up. Table tennis is about getting the racket acceleration, not tensing up your muscle before you hit
      3. Body rotation is even more important than using your wrist in FH. A consistent player's power come from throwing your body weight along with the shoulder + elbow swing

    18. Top | #30
      Baal is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      Erm, i feel like a lot of the explainations are getting too long and complicated. So here's the summary from my view that most of the people here also agree


      1. Use your wrist if you can be consistent with it, otherwise try not to use it as much
      2. Even if you try to 'lock' your wrist, never tense it up. Table tennis is about getting the racket acceleration, not tensing up your muscle before you hit
      3. Body rotation is even more important than using your wrist in FH. A consistent player's power come from throwing your body weight along with the shoulder + elbow swing

      And videotape yourself before you try to make any changes (maybe what you do is ok). If you are not careful you will end up thinking too much about mechanics and in that direction lies madness and futility.

      Finally, Rule 52 (at least the small part of it that was serious and not meant to be funny) says "Beyond a certain age you are not going to easily succeed in making large changes in your technique but you can make it more effective and you can learn to play smarter".
      Last edited by Baal; 8 Hours Ago at 02:25 AM.

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    20. Top | #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      And videotape yourself before you try to make any changes (maybe what you do is ok). If you are not careful you will end up thinking too much about mechanics and in that direction lies madness and futility.

      Finally, Rule 52 (at least the small part of it that was serious and not meant to be funny) says "Beyond a certain age you are not going to easily succeed in making large changes in your technique but you can make it more effective and you can learn to play smarter".
      Watching footage of yourself is hugely beneficial.

    21. Top | #32
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      My first coach insisted on wrist usage for every shot. She was fairly well known in China and one of the kids she coached became world champion in the 80s.

      When I went to China to train, the coach there hated wrist usage on the loop. H A T E D it with a passion. I would get lectured to when I would use my wrist when looping.

      When I returned from China, a local coach I worked with was an ex-CNT coach. He wanted people to use their wrist but in a completely insane way. He insisted this was the key to playing table tennis properly.

      At my current club, a few 2500-2600 level coaches say using the wrist is like catching a ball. You kind of catch the paddle when you make contact with the ball. They say this helps with the arc of the ball.

      Also at my current club is a player from China whose loop makes the other coaches loop look like molasses going down the side of a tree. He says not to use the wrist when looping.

      Ma Long uses his wrist.
      Fan Zhendong: not so much.

      So what does this all mean? I think it would be best to work on all the other mechanics of the forehand loop and not worry about the wrist too much. If you want to use it, use it. If not, don't. Learning to use the body, the forearm and the legs should be the main focus and once those aspects are mastered, then worry about using your wrist or fingers or not using them. As others have pointed out, sometimes using the wrist can be used as a crutch and you don't learn to use the other parts of your body effectively.
      Last edited by lightspin; 2 Hours Ago at 08:01 AM.

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    23. Top | #33
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      For the forehand wrist usage requires timing, skill and feel. It would not be good for beginners to use it. For the backhand, wrist is really needed for bh loops.

    24. Top | #34
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      I won't comment on technique. But it seems like you are learning on your own (without the supervision of a coach). Locking the wrist by forcing it is a bad idea esp if you play more than an hour per day. It could lead to scaphoid related injuries. Just wanted to save you from that because it happened to me.

      Have fun and enjoy the process!

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