Wrist or no wrist in forehand

Looking at how someone does a shot and being able to immediately discern inefficiencies of the biomechanics, then be able to tell the person about the what and how is a skill that surprisingly, not so many coaches seem to have.

Adult learners learn so differently from kids, unique challenges there, just having them do a few thousand won't necessarily get an adult learner to be good at a shot.

There is more than one way to impact a ball efficiently, and also more than one way to generate energy... but what is common is that to make an acceptably good impact, a player needs to be able to generate kinetic energy and deliver it to the ball. Being loose and using legs and hips are accepted as the most major way to generate the most kinetic energy.

EDIT: The point being that it isn't the wrist generating the kinetic energy or channeling/amplifying it. The wrist joint is only a point of leverage to use or not use.

Players like Next Level, who have compromised joints and hip, cannot get down enough, often enough to generate big kinetic energy that way, but one can still generate a big kinetic energy (and deliver it) with a lesser amount of leg and hip to start it all... this situation just demands better amplification of it or another way to create and borrow the kinetic energy.

One not-so-thought-of way is to take a small step, plant, and borrow that energy (if one can stay loose and time the impulses afterwards)... channeling it and amplifying it along the way. We do this on a FH flip where we step into the ball over the table.

Another way is to do a minor push of leg and short hip to start it all, that takes less bend and less stress to joints, but is more difficult to do it right and on time being more upright, especially if you are a tall person like Nexy Level.

On BH wing, all I need to do is move my upper and lower arm forward a few inches, then slow down/stop the upper arm, allow the lower arm to move and apply my impulse to accelerate the lower arm, snap the wrist through a little or lot, and firm up grip for extra power if I choose.

The essence of generating extreme fast bat speed is to set an object in motion, then impulse it after it starts moving. (much easier to accelerate a mass that is moving) If one is leveraged and well timed with the individual short explosions needed to amplify the initial power, one can have a huge bat speed before impact. One cannot achieve this by being tight, or tightening too soon in the middle. Tightened muscles cannot accelerate anything too much, it is an accepted fact. (Yet I see so many players try to get more power by tightening)

I see so many adults ruin the nice kinetic energy they created by trying to over-kill with upper body driving like a Jeep 4x4 over cross-country tight and all locked up... The example Brett shows in his vid with the bear illustrates the importance of staying loose to allow the kinetic energy to flow across the joints and points of leverage.

There is a great difference between a top spin rally in training and in real game.
And there are a lot situations in which its much better to use the wrist, and whats more - to use it with different kind of motion and swing. And all that depends on your particular stance and position at which you are able to take the ball, which depends on footwork and reaction too. If you are kicked off aside the corner, most probably you have to use the wrist, or you have to use the wrist if your stance and position is not suitable for the desired direction of the return and you may use it to fool the opponent, and maybe you have to use the wrist if you want to counter the incoming side spin. And so on, etc.

langel said:

There is a great difference between a top spin rally in training and in real game.
And there are a lot situations in which its much better to use the wrist, and whats more - to use it with different kind of motion and swing. And all that depends on your particular stance and position at which you are able to take the ball, which depends on footwork and reaction too. If you are kicked off aside the corner, most probably you have to use the wrist, or you have to use the wrist if your stance and position is not suitable for the desired direction of the return and you may use it to fool the opponent, and maybe you have to use the wrist if you want to counter the incoming side spin. And so on, etc.

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yeah but you don't want to be thinking about it when you are playing. It has to come naturally as a result of LOTS of training your forehand in all sort of situations that force you to MOVE to get to the ball.

Baal said:

yeah but you don't want to be thinking about it when you are playing. It has to come naturally as a result of LOTS of training your forehand in all sort of situations that force you to MOVE to get to the ball.

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Yeah, of coarse, but so what?

Thinking is Always a must no matter level of the ladder, and thinking has many levels in the cybernetics hierarchy of the system, no matter what we call conscious or unconscious. And no matter what your abstraction is, you always have to know the anchor points and the turning points of what you intend and what you achieve.
The OP Needs to know the abstractions to persuit.

Cybernetics hierarchy of the system????

Ha ha ha!!!

laistrogian said:

Generally i teach people how to play based on ZJK's style which IMO is the most textbook table tennis form out of all the pro

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I feel bad for the people who will get imposed upon by stuff like this. Anyone who really knows how to teach a physical skill would not make a statement like that. There are so many reasons why this is a sad statement and it makes me think of the Indian religious metaphors about the realms of purgatory where the blind are leading the blind.

Reminds me of a nasty old piano teacher I had as a kid. "You must never change one note of what was written by the masters!!!" (All of whom were dead by 1830).

Thank god later I got to study jazz.

Sometimes I wonder how many talented kids have had all sorts of good stuff coached out of them. In all sorts of endeavors.

The analogy to jazz is striking. There is tons of theory plus techique to master over countless hours but when it comes down to it, when it gets real, you dont want to be thinking about your technique. You are thinking how you can sound good with the other musicians.

But if you dont put in the work you will suck anyway ( I'm living proof of that).

Baal said:

The analogy to jazz is striking. There is tons of theory plus techique to master over countless hours but when it comes down to it, when it gets real, you dont want to be thinking about your technique. You are thinking how you can sound good with the other musicians.

But if you dont put in the work you will suck anyway ( I'm proof of that).

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In any highly refined skill, you want the mundane and technical aspects of it to be unconscious and on auto-pilot so your attention can be focused on the more important details of the skill sets. In Jazz it would be following the flow of the improvisation so that you are with the other players even though none of what is being played has ever been played the same way before.

In TT you want to be focused on the ball so you can respond to it and what your opponent does so you can respond to that as well. And while you are taking your shot having what the opponent is doing in your periphery so you can hit your shot based on that what your opponent shows you. I cannot tell you how many times I have hit a FH down the line when I saw my opponent was breaking towards the FH too early as though I was about to go cross court.

A guy I studied movement theory with decades ago explained it this way:

He was showing the movement of standing up from a chair and he said:

"That movement takes the actions of about 180 muscles. If I had to think about which ones to contract and in what sequence, I would never be able to do it. If we needed conscious control of the action we would never be able to walk or run."

And please don't tell me you have to think about form when you walk or run. Most people don't even realize how they do it.

You can improve movement mechanics, even of actions that we are so habituated to doing like walking or running. You can improve your mechanics. But when you do the actions you should not be thinking of how you do them.

I find that if you havenot been playing for so long or have not been a coach for long or not at at all you Do not realize that you can play tabletennis many ways. And if you win it Do not matter how you win haha.

Technique do not really matter as long as you get good energy in the ball and it works for you. Personally i think schlager looks very very stiff and Bolls forehand technique is not there most beautiful But these guys goes down in history as some of the best europeans ever.

Still technique is important But there are really No wrong or correct.

If think for opening at backspin you really Will with purpose use the wrist at the end of the stroke to get more spin.

When looping i think the wrist comes more naturally in the end from the mechanics of the whipping like motion of the stroke.

When blocking and counterloooping i think you lose somewhat control if you use much wrist.

I think that it is important that in all of these strokes to point out that the motion starts with the body and first stops there then the arm comes and you accelerate with it. Like a passenger in a car without a bröt when doing a hard stop.

Baal said:

Cybernetics hierarchy of the system????

Ha ha ha!!!

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Cybernetic Hierarchy - The subsystems regulate their relation to each other and to the external environment by the operation of a feedback loop, in which changes in the environment are communicated to the system in a manner which brings about a corresponding adjustment of the system to maintain a steady state, or other state appropriate to the effective functioning or survival of the system.

Not to contradict some very thought out opinions, but my former coach always stressed that the entire swing motion should be "in unison". Wrist, arm, shoulder, waist, legs all moving at the same time. Absolutely no "whipping", ie no waist before shoulder then snap the arm/wrist etc.

Wrist.

lasta said:

Not to contradict some very thought out opinions, but my former coach always stressed that the entire swing motion should be "in unison". Wrist, arm, shoulder, waist, legs all moving at the same time. Absolutely no "whipping", ie no waist before shoulder then snap the arm/wrist etc.

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I think they all should move together But i think you still need to stop the motion with the body first. By doing so the arm throws forward then you accelerate with the arm. If you follow with the body as long as you Do with the arm you Will nog get any power from the body. Always need to stop the motion to get power.

Edit. Especially you that use short pimple lasta. The reason why he zhi wen grunts is because he stop his stomach to get power in the ball.

lasta said:

Not to contradict some very thought out opinions, but my former coach always stressed that the entire swing motion should be "in unison". Wrist, arm, shoulder, waist, legs all moving at the same time. Absolutely no "whipping", ie no waist before shoulder then snap the arm/wrist etc.

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Trying to move everything all together at the same time is a mess. Will not be very efficient in making a fast bat.

Loose muscles need to be used in sequence with leverage and amplification. The stroke doesn't take too long and it could look like one is doing it all together, but there is no way one can lock up the entire chain of legs, waist, torso, shoulders, arm to generate any kind of good torque and bat speed.

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Hell Carl, not just walking or running, most people drive unconsciously, and that is a pretty complex skill that is pretty hard and scary at first.

Anyway, I would not attempt to change someone's wrist unless somehow it was really obvious that it was hurting their shot.

The other thing is even if someone WANTS to change something like that, I'm not sure how much they could succeed and the time could be spent more productively.

Maybe I should clarify about sequence, yes sequence, yes, most everything is moving around same time, but not exactly, and not locked up like 4x4 drivetrain moving together all locked up. That would be one Frankenstein loop.

I seriously hate it when a coach or authority says there is just one way... there in no single correct answer in TT, many pros acknowledge that.

MY approach is all the individual movements are unique and separate in a quick sequence to create motion, amplify it, and deliver that power making use of stability, leverage, impulse and pressure.

Someone somewhere in this thread or another mentioned "Slowing Down" some part of the body. I think that is an important part of letting energy pass through so you could amplify it.

On my powerful BH hit or powerloop, I take a small step, allow upper arm and lower arm to move forward... when at the right point, I slow down/stop the upper arm while keeping the shoulder and elbow loose.

That slow down and stop while being loose allows the energy generated to pass through and use the upper arm to be used as a cylindrical level pivot between shoulder joint and elbow...

Doing that slow down / stop / be loose allows me to let lower arm move forward then do a quick impulse to move lower arm, I keep wrist loose and explode that as the energy gets there, and firm up right at impact.

I get FH smash power with a BH stroke under a foot doing that.

In Korea, one time I had a short hit with Kim Jung Hoon in Nexy HQ. He fished the ball from a few meters back and asked me to crush it to his FH near him...

I did not have great FH form in the classic Korean or pro sense... but I could crush that ball. Kim Jung Hoon saw I did not have optimal stroke mechanics, but saw the ball come at him fast.

He said about ne "Heem Joh-Ah" which means "Dude is Strong" and he meant that to say even with no 100 percent proper stroke mechanic, I made the ball fly, because I was strong.

Personally, I believe I was strong in the leg/hip and didn't use so much shoulder turn to generate the kinetic energy, plus I had good upper arm to whip the ball.

Baal said:

Hell Carl, not just walking or running, most people drive unconsciously, and that is a pretty complex skill that is pretty hard and scary at first.

Anyway, I would not attempt to change someone's wrist unless somehow it was really obvious that it was hurting their shot.

The other thing is even if someone WANTS to change something like that, I'm not sure how much they could succeed and the time could be spent more productively.

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Yep. Agree.

Riding a bike to, also on auto-pilot despite the complex nature of the balancing that keeps you from falling off, that, as a kid you have to learn.

Also fully agree about trying to change the wrist. One of the hardest things to change when it is baked into your muscles memory to do one thing.

There are ways to use neuromuscular repatterining to change that stuff. But most people couldn't do it even if they really tried and had the tools to try. So, functionally, it is not worth trying.